SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

I think that we're still trading Stone to Willem.

Once we have had a couple of rounds of whipping (meaning that we hopefully won't need the +1 Health from getting his Pig), we'll probably want to cancel that deal and then horde the Stone to ourselves.

Certainly, we will at minimum need to cancel the Stone deal on the turn before he learns Engineering (let's not hasten his Castle production).

Also, getting him into Caste System means that he won't be able to whip City Walls. ;)
 
Also, getting him into Caste System means that he won't be able to whip City Walls.

The trouble with this is, that I find that AI's normally switch back to slavery shortly after the mandatory "no anarchy" period expires. I'm not sure that making a few AI's suffer a few turns of anarchy without slavery is worth accelerating the global tech pace at this point. In particular whilst William is running Caste System his production may suffer, but his tech will probably get a boost, which is bad news as we want to inflict as much damage on him as we can before he can discover engineering. Aesthetics might be worth it due to the AI's willingness to research drama/literature/music compared to aesthetics, but I don't think we should trade anything else around.

Note that according to the diplo screen we currently can't switch any of Williams civics.

Catherine is now pleased with us, and we haven't made any demands from her. We could try asking her to change civics now for free, and wait a few turns to see if we can get some gold for aesthetics.


Once we have had a couple of rounds of whipping (meaning that we hopefully won't need the +1 Health from getting his Pig), we'll probably want to cancel that deal and then horde the Stone to ourselves.

I think we should be aiming to have started our war with William and taken our first citie(s) before he gets engineering. I would still cancel that deal now gold isn't critical. 1gpt is not worth if it increases the risk that William will build walls.

I'd still recommend that we overflow Hammers from whipping into Warriors for a little while--either for future upgrades or for Military Police in our captured Cities.

In view of the need to get the war with William started ASAP I can't see us having the time to do much of this. Nor do I think we will have enough gold to upgrade many-it is expensive, and we already have several warriors scattered around.

Of the three Cities of Willem's that we can see, we can attack 2 of them easily, but the other one appears to be "more in the back." We may be able to sail around the north part of his landmass to sneak in there, but we don't know for certain yet.

Ideally, we'd land troops simultaneously at all of his big-sized Cities on the first turn of war.

One of his cities must be down south near the gems. The location of the final one is a bit of a mystery. My best guess is to the SE of Amsterdam.

What is NOT nice to see is that Isabella seems to have 7 Cities. I would like to target her as probably AI #3 (after Willem and Cathy), with the hopes that we can hit her before she upgrades to Longbowmen.

I think we are going to have to open up a second front shortly after starting the war with William. Given that Victoria/Jao are in completly the opposite direction I think we should target on of them second.

We need to locate Jao soon, and we could do with better intel on Vicky so now that we have galleons and emergency whip capability I think we should send our eastern trieme along the South of Vickys landmass to get this information.

We could also bring our warrior in Russias landmass back to scout out Williams final cities. This would also enable us to close borders with russia to slightly reduce her tech rate.


We did have city visibility of Williams other cities a couple of turns ago, so if we put all our espionage on him we should be able to regain this, to help plan our wars.
 
Note that according to the diplo screen we currently can't switch any of Williams civics.
I admit that I did not check to see if Willem switched Civics within the last 5 turns. We'd of course want to confirm the current situation, to see whether a Civic swap is available or not anyway.

Two turns of Anarchy for Willem will delay his push to Engineering, while trading him Code of Laws will not speed up his tech path to Engineering.


Catherine is now pleased with us, and we haven't made any demands from her. We could try asking her to change civics now for free, and wait a few turns to see if we can get some gold for aesthetics.
Oh goodness. Me oh my. I had enough trouble trying to figure out the "Gold value" of Demands, let alone trying to figure out the Civic swapping value.

However, I strongly suspect that, since we're asking in the realm of less than 100 Gold for Gold-based Demands, that she will outright refuse a request to change even 1 Civic... it's pretty rare to see a Civic swap for less than 100 Gold, right?



I think we should be aiming to have started our war with William and taken our first citie(s) before he gets engineering. I would still cancel that deal now gold isn't critical. 1gpt is not worth if it increases the risk that William will build walls.
It's more about the Health than the Gold per Turn. We should at least be able to look at the map for 3 Cities and see whether he's bothered to build Walls in those Cities yet or not.

We definitely want to cancel the deal once we don't need the Health, but before then, it'll have to be a judgment call, which includes weighing how many of his Cities already have City Walls (if his Cities have them, then we don't need to worry about him getting Stone, as he will have already used it).


In view of the need to get the war with William started ASAP I can't see us having the time to do much of this. Nor do I think we will have enough gold to upgrade many-it is expensive, and we already have several warriors scattered around.
I think that we need to keep a medium-term focus here. Capturing a City will likely give us half of the upgrade cost of a Warrior to a Maceman. Also, the cheaper the City Garrison that we can build, the better.

The point being that if we use whip overflow, then we can still have a lot of 2-pop-whips... but if we "capture" whip overflow into build items like Macemen, then we might end up accidentally creating 1-pop-whips, which would be a bad situation, as we might take a really long time to complete these build items.

Warriors are nice because a big overflow can complete a Warrior while a small overflow can be captured and combined with a second overflow to create a second Warrior.


One of his cities must be down south near the gems. The location of the final one is a bit of a mystery. My best guess is to the SE of Amsterdam.
It should e noted that we will temporarily lose the Happiness from the Gem Resource when we attack him, but once our Cultural Borders expand, we should get a couple of new Happiness Resources from him, so hopefully, it will all balance out in the end.


We could also bring our warrior in Russias landmass back to scout out Williams final cities. This would also enable us to close borders with russia to slightly reduce her tech rate.
I don't have the game open, but I highly doubt that us Closing Borders with any AI, even Cathy, will negatively impact their Trade Route income. There are just too many lovey-dovey AIs. But, sure, we could double-check to see whether she has limited Open Borders agreements, and if she does only have a few of them, we might be able to reduce her tech rate by Closing Borders.

More likely, though, we'll just hurt ourselves, seeing as how we're soon going to be declaring war on multiple AIs--we will probably soon want all of the Open Borders agreements that we'll be able to get.


We did have city visibility of Williams other cities a couple of turns ago, so if we put all our espionage on him we should be able to regain this, to help plan our wars.
So, Weight = 1 on Willem, Weight = 0 on Vicky, right? Note that Willem has been spending more than 4 Espionage Points per turn, thanks to using his Espionage Slider, but not all of those Espionage Points were being spent on us. Still, we might not get very much progress, so don't count on being able to see his Cities this way.


In terms of war targets, Ragnar is one of the closest AIs and does have some nice production-based Cities. Of course, he won't have Longbowmen for a long time, so we can also leave him for later.

Basically, there are a lot of reasons that we could put on the table for going after any number of the AI. Willem with his fast tech pace, though, I think that we can all agree, needs to get attacked first. As for who gets attacked second, we'll probably have to keep an eye on the tech scene and decide as the game progresses.
 
Okay, so I took the saved game, played out the game, and we won a Conquest Victory in 1240 AD.

Alright, I'm just kidding, but does anyone care? :p Is anyone going to play anymore? Do we really need to resort to drawing straws? ;)
 
Ok, so we finally get to kill someone now, right? :D

I think we need to hit Amsterdam and Utrecht simultaneously, and ideally have enough to follow through on the third city without reinforcements. If he doesn't get the Feud upgrade in time, we shouldn't lose more than 1 Treb per city, but we should be bombarding anyway. It's better for battle odds, and so we have fully healed trebs for hits on the next city. How many points does a non-Accuracy Treb bombardment take? 16%?

Tech: Why Drama? Let's finish CS. I would like a Bureau/Theo switch a bit later. Lit could pay off, as well. HE will cost us 177 forge+PS hammers in Stone, and pay back 18 per turn at the current production rate. That seems like a good investment at some point, as long as we have enough warring still to do. Depends how long to get that 8XP, but I think it could be quick. Might help to upgrade that 3XP galley and work it? We could also live without HE...

The lack of forges is painful... Once the Rep bonus goes, we're not doing that great on happy. Taking Willem we recover the gems and get dye, at least.
 
I think CS is done (can't remember without opening the save). Theocracy is a switch worth making but I don't think we have theology. I would prefer to go drama first to open up more whipping, followed by theology.

We can probably do catapult whip overflow into the HE, although I'm not sure if it's worth it.

So I'll put together a PPP tonight with us teching towards drama and whipping like mad. I think it's just a matter of calculating a whip cycle for each city...
 
We can probably do catapult whip overflow into the HE, although I'm not sure if it's worth it.

Why would we whip catapults when we can whip trebs?

think we need to hit Amsterdam and Utrecht simultaneously, and ideally have enough to follow through on the third city without reinforcements. If he doesn't get the Feud upgrade in time, we shouldn't lose more than 1 Treb per city, but we should be bombarding anyway. It's better for battle odds, and so we have fully healed trebs for hits on the next city. How many points does a non-Accuracy Treb bombardment take? 16%?

it is 16%. I think building up an attack force this large may take too long, and that it would be better to take his first city ASAP. Remember we are on a race to crush him before he can build and castles.
 
Catapults offer the greatest whip overflow of the available units. I'm only suggesting it as an option for building the HE. If we're not interested in the HE, then yes we're better off whipping trebs.

By the way, what's a good treb/mace ratio here? I'm thinking 1:1 or maybe 1.5:1 -- thoughts?
 
I'd be inclined to have our stack slightly mace heavy (at least to start with) in order to get our attack underway ASAP.
 
We are 1 turn away from Civil Service and are close enough that we can probably research it in 1 turn at a 0% Science Rate.

I see little reason to self-tech Literature and Drama. Let's allow the AIs to research these techs for us. It will be a while before:
a) We will have a need for the Cultural Slider
OR
b) We will have an 8 Experience Point unit for building The Heroic Epic

Therefore, we can afford to wait to get these techs in trade.

However, we'd love to encourage the AIs to research these techs, both so that we can get these techs in trade and so that they'll divert their research to these "more peaceful" techs.


Every AI in our game has a greater-than-zero value for one or both of Literature and Drama, and all AIs except for Vicky value Music as being greater than zero.


Thus, I'd like to see us selling Aesthetics around immediately. There was a suggestion of saving this trade until an AI, such as Cathy, gains some Gold to trade to us, but if we trade it around, we want to trade it to everyone at once, to avoid creating a tech-trade deficit between the AIs. Such a deficit will be filled by AI-AI trading long before any AI will be able to collect some Gold.


Also, with Cathy having 2 Worst Enemies, it would be really painful to gift her Aesthetics. Therefore, I propose getting her to revolt into both Caste System and Pacifism for Aesthetics, followed by selling Aesthetics to all of the other AIs for their remaining Gold.

While we can't be sure of the exact value of getting Cathy to switch Civics, it's "free" for us to do and it also prevents us from giving her "3 times the value" by gifting her that tech, due to her not having any Gold left. If we instead don't trade the tech to her, since she has a relative tech lead to most AIs, we'll just see her trading away one of her techs to another AI for Aesthetics, meaning that another AI will become smarter due to us not giving Aesthetics to Cathy.

However, we have to make the Aesthetics trade one of the first things that we do, as we have to do it before we switch Civics.


On that note, we should decide if we want to do the same with Willem, by first selling him Code of Laws (which is a tech that either Vicky or Cathy could sell to him at any time now anyway) and then trading him Aesthetics for a switch into Caste System.

The worst possible outcome is if we decide not to attack Willem and allow him to tech merrily on his way... we should be able to attack him shortly after he learns Engineering, which would mean that giving him Code of Laws would have virtually no impact, but if we were to change our minds about attacking him first, then in the medium-term, he'd be a bit closer to Civil Service. Still, it would take him quite a long time to learn both Engineering (which he will be commmited to completing research on) and Civil Service, and it's only if we are going to change our minds about attacking him first would his knowledge of Code of Laws potentially become an issue.

Realistically, Willem will go for a non-Civil-Service tech after Engineering, even if he knows Code of Laws, and I don't know about you, but even if he WERE to go after Civil Service, I'd rather see him learn that than him learn Feudalism: he can't build Macemen if we capture his Iron and Copper Cities, but learning Feudalism allows him to build Longbowmen in even the junkiest of Cities.

Again, he'll face 2 turns of Anarchy switching into and out of Caste System, and he has a good chance of just staying in Caste System until after a war starts, meaning no quickly-whipped Castles--quickly-whipped Castles would be a VERY TERRIBLE blow to our game and possibly avoiding them by selling him Code of Laws now (before we switch our Civics) is, I believe, a very worthwhile payoff.


Learning Civil Service means that we can no longer build Warriors for Military Police or future upgrading purposes. What are we going to spend our ill-gotten-gains from capturing AIs Cities and from staying at a 0% Science Rate on if we don't build a few 3-Experience-Point Warriors (1 Experience Point away from a second promotion, remember, due to the Charismatic Trait).

We have a 5 turn window before we need to learn Civil Service for a possible switch into Bureaucracy: let's build a few Warriors in that short window of time.


Self-teching Theology is an option, but it would still cost us a full turn of Anarchy to switch into Theocracy, would be a more expensive Civic, and would only be usable by some of our Cities. Recall that we do not get any savings on Anarchy-switching by switching two Civics at the same time as each other, thus there is little incentive to try and switch into Theocracy, assuming that we do even choose to switch into Bureaucracy. So, I'd much prefer to set research to a 0% Science Rate and just collect Gold.


Which tech at a 0% Science Rate? Maybe Drama, maybe Feudalism... it hardly matters.


Do not forget that Willem has access to Crossbowmen. It is a shame that we likely won't have time to capture a source of Ragnar's War Elephants, but if we land on Hills and/or Forests (assuming that there are any) next to Willem's Cities and also promote a couple of Combat I Maces, we should be okay.

Realistically, though, for our assault on Willem, we'll probably want to focus on Trebs, with very few or zero City Raider Macemen, while having a few defending Combat I Macemen.

Multiple Trebs beat Crossbowmen, but Crossbowmen handle their own against Macemen.

Combat I is just as good as and is often better than City Raider I, since Combat I increases our base 8 strength, while City Raider I simply reduces the defender's base strength (which will be weaker than a Maceman for all of the units that Willem can build).

Having the extra chance to defend from attacking AI Catapults and Crossbowmen via Combat I is a fact that completely tips the scales in favour of Combat I Macemen.

Against Longbowmen, yes, City Raider Macemen will be preferable, but in that case (i.e. when we get to attacking Cathy), there won't (hopefully) be Crossbowmen in her army, meaning that we'll care a bit less about the defensive Combat I promotions.


So, nothing says that later-built or later-upgraded-from-Warriors Macemen can't get City Raider promotions, but I would strongly consider giving Combat I to all of the Macemen in our initial assault on Ragnar. That said, I'd probably only promote one or two Macemen per stack before landing, then promote the rest on the turn that we plan to attack, so that they can heal from any Catapult damage immediately before attacking.

Similarly, the Trebuchet promotions should be saved until right before the Trebs will attack for the first time.

After the Trebs win a battle, we can probably consider promoting them to their second promotions immediately, as doing so will heal them faster, but for the initial promotions, which should all be City Raider I, there is no real advantage to promoting them ahead of time.


I'd want a minimum of 3 Macemen per stack... 2 would defend from an initial Catapult and initial Crossbowmen assault, while the 3rd one would exist to deter Willem from throwing additional units at our stack. However, that would be a bare minimum... Trebs can weaken defenders but they can't kill defenders, so we'd still want a couple of units that could attack.


Oh yeah... back to learning Civil Service or not... I guess that we COULD learn it immediately if we don't hook-up our Iron... but another thought is that by learning it, we could SLIGHTLY encourage Cathy and/or Vicky to research it as their next tech selection.

Thus, I would strongly favour:
1. Not connecting our Iron for a bit, so that we can build a few best-upgrade-ratio Warriors (as well as cheapest Military Police units)
AND
2. Not learning Civil Service until 5 turns from now, just in time to switch into Bureaucracy, in order to reduce the chance of any of the AIs going for that tech simply because another player already knows it, making it slightly cheaper for them to research it


We do have some exploration options... we have a Warrior on Vicky's Island that could explore her territory. The Warrior at Willem should probably double-back and check to the NE of his area, to see if there is a passage up there. We don't really need to scout around the SE of his island... the first of our Galleons will pass by there and reveal where exactly in that area his Gem City is located, but we really want to know if there is a passage in the NE to be able to sail around to his back City, or if we must trudge troops across the land in order to hit that City of his.
 
As for Galleon-chaining... well, for our first assault, it probably won't help us. We need somewhere to land our land-based units in order for Galleon-chaining to be effective. Willem's Culture (he is Creative and has Stonehenge) has probably blocked all non-Culturally-owned landing points.

Therefore, we'll probably just want to hit him with "stacks" of filled-Galleons.

In the meantime, nothing stops us from having a few Galleons "shuttle" units to Gold City, so that they can gather there. So, a Galleon-chain WITHIN our Cultural Borders can potentially speed up the first attack, in that the farther City of Willem's that we'll attack can have a stack of filled-Galleons leaving from next to Gold City, while other Galleons that are further to the east in our empire can pick up the latest freshly-built units--the last units that will be built before we attack--and then pick up any additional units remaining on Gold City's island, before also sailing out to attack the nearest Cities of Willem's.

That way, we will keep our Unit Supply costs low.


As for attacking with a small force--I am totally against it. Ideally, we'll overpower 2, 3, or more of his Cities in the first attack. Doing so means facing FAR less units.

Do you really want to capture (or raze) a City, only to have Catapults and/or Crossbowmen from other Cities come and destroy our wounded surviving units? No, you don't. But, assaulting his Cities, particularly his large, productive Cities (that are hopefully running Caste System instead of Slavery) at the same time will mean that he won't have counter-attacking units from these Cities going to help support the lone City that we attacked initially.


The exception to this kind of a rule would be if we were to attack an AI like Isabella who did seem to be (at least used to be, before she had 7 Cities--it's hard to say now) fielding mostly Archers--Archers are not great counter-attacking units and thus it wouldn't hurt to take an AI like her on "sooner but 1 City at a time"--probably even razing her Cities just so that the army at her could stay mobile.

Most other AIs will require a bigger force to take down, so that the warring can be as efficient as possible.
 
I'm against giving aesthetics, or any other tech to the AI at this point. Any beakers we give the AI gives it more room to tech feudalism, which we want to avoid. I'd much rather self tech drama to decrease the risk of AI longbows.

I think the first wave will be 3 galleons. I'm thinking 4 maces, 4 trebs, and a crossbow (for lack of any better unit to counter Willem's potential xbows). This should let us grab one or two of his core cities to cripple his research.

We need to connect iron now to start building units. We will not be accumulating much gold at 0% given that we have almost 0 cottages and will be whipping our populace into oblivion (well not quite). Not connecting iron basically means that we're putting off our invasion date.

Also, we want to scout Willem's SE city before looking for a passage to the north since we want to know what cities have walls right now.

Our three prime concerns going forward are (1) how to make our army; (2) coming up with the most feasible logistics plan for moving our army into place to attack; and (3) how to make sure we don't go bankrupt in the process of warring. Probably in that order of importance.
 
I'm against giving aesthetics, or any other tech to the AI at this point. Any beakers we give the AI gives it more room to tech feudalism, which we want to avoid. I'd much rather self tech drama to decrease the risk of AI longbows.

I think the point of gifting aesthetics is that it will open up drama/literature and then music, and AI's are much more likely to research these than they will aesthetics, so this increases the probability that they will waste beakers on useless techs. It also opens up the possibility of getting drama/literature in trade.

I think the first wave will be 3 galleons. I'm thinking 4 maces, 4 trebs, and a crossbow (for lack of any better unit to counter Willem's potential xbows). This should let us grab one or two of his core cities to cripple his research.

It doesn't look like William has a source of iron so I think we can forget xbows as a threat for now. 3 galleons is a bit of a difficult number. Two should be enough to take his capital, but 3 isn't enough to make a second landing. Maybe if we can commit/upgrade the galley we could make 2 landing at the same time with 11-12 units around T+11-12?

Also, we want to scout Willem's SE city before looking for a passage to the north since we want to know what cities have walls right now.

The warrior scouting Russia could do that. I also think that it is important that we scout out Jao's location soon, perhaps the Western trieme could do it?


Do you really want to capture (or raze) a City, only to have Catapults and/or Crossbowmen from other Cities come and destroy our wounded surviving units? No, you don't. But, assaulting his Cities, particularly his large, productive Cities (that are hopefully running Caste System instead of Slavery) at the same time will mean that he won't have counter-attacking units from these Cities going to help support the lone City that we attacked initially.

Based on my scouting he doesn't have much of an offensive stack-and we can't afford to wait too long-the longer it takes the greater the odds that we will face castles, it also means delaying all subsequent wars, we need to get a move on here.

Thus, I'd like to see us selling Aesthetics around immediately. There was a suggestion of saving this trade until an AI, such as Cathy, gains some Gold to trade to us, but if we trade it around, we want to trade it to everyone at once, to avoid creating a tech-trade deficit between the AIs. Such a deficit will be filled by AI-AI trading long before any AI will be able to collect some Gold.

Well Cathy did have a GM in Williams territory a few turns ago, we could pick up quite abit if we wait for a few turns. We should also avoid trading it to Ragnar to reduce the chances of him not being the dumbest AI anymore. He wouldn't be able to trade for aesthetics anyway.

Learning Civil Service means that we can no longer build Warriors for Military Police or future upgrading purposes. What are we going to spend our ill-gotten-gains from capturing AIs Cities and from staying at a 0% Science Rate on if we don't build a few 3-Experience-Point Warriors (1 Experience Point away from a second promotion, remember, due to the Charismatic Trait).

Well we could want access to the culture slider later, and possibly the espionage slider. Furthermore we could do with the ability to run at a gold deficit for a number of turns.

I think you are seriously underestimating the amount of gold we will have access to. Once the golden age ends our gold surplus will be reduced to 80 gpt, once we start whipping this will be reduced further and maintenance and army unit costs are only going to go up. We won't be able to upgrade a huge amount of warriors, and we already have 11 scattered around we could upgrade when we have the money. Also delaying the building of maces for more than a couple of turns will set our first war back which I don't think we can afford. We can always overflow to archers to replace our scouts/garrisons if we still wanted to keep them, which in terms of hammers would be almost efficient as overflowing to extra warriors for upgradeing, without the drawback.
 
more room to tech feudalism, which we want to avoid.
Trading-around Aesthetics IS being suggested directly in the interest of delaying AI research on Feudalism. If they are busy chasing after Literature and Drama, that's 2 techs that they won't be going after instead of Feudalism.

Also, if an AI learns one of Literature or Drama, it will be in contention for the race to Music and thus will likely spend Flasks in the Music tech in the race to the free Great Artist. I don't foresee us self-teching Music, so let the AIs waste their Flasks in this useless endeavour.

If only 1 or 2 AIs are close to Music, then less AIs will end up spending their Flasks on Music and thereby more AIs will spend their Flasks on Militaristic techs.


I'd much rather self tech drama
Even if we were to do so, there is no rush. We won't need the extra Happiness for a while. Therefore, independent of the Aesthetics decision, I still recommend that we immediately switch to a 0% Science Rate.


3 galleons... 4 trebs..
Not connecting iron basically means that we're putting off our invasion date.
Galleons and and Trebuchets do not require Iron. Nothing stops us from building the Galleons and Trebs first. In fact, without Civil Service, we CAN'T start on Macemen as our current build items anyway, meaning that there is no need to connect the Iron on the current turn.

Hammer overflow from the first whipped items could go into Warriors.

After an initial round of overflow-Hammer-built Warriors, we could certainly connect-up the Iron.


Also, we want to scout Willem's SE city before looking for a passage to the north since we want to know what cities have walls right now.
While both scouting areas need to be looked-at, nothing stops you from sending our first whipped Galleon to scout the SE area. With 5-movement points, a Galleon could get there and back within plenty of time before we'd need to start shuttling our troops over.

That way, we'd have intelligence on both areas.
 
I agree with mdy and shyuhe that building warriors at this point makes no sense. We are going to be running a gold deficit very soon once we capture cities and our army grows. I'd rather save our gold. If we have extra, we could always upgrade an existing warror and replace him with a slightly more expensive archer.

BTW, our forced 10-turn peace treaty is almost up. Do we have an idea of where Ragnar's fleet is?
 
We are going to be running a gold deficit very soon once we capture cities and our army grows.
I just checked out warring in a test game (I World Buildered myself an army, hehe). We'll get somewhere between 150 and 200 Gold per City capture.

For the first 6 to 9 turns of capturing a City, we won't be getting Trade Routes, but we won't be paying City Maintenance Costs either--just Civic Upkeep Costs. Once the Cities come out of revolt, the City Maintenance Costs will be partially-balanced by the Intercontinental Foreign Trade Routes.


ALSO, if we sell Code of Laws to Willem, he actually has a chance of building us COURTHOUSES that we could capture. He loves Espionage and thus he favours Couthouses highly. I'd rather him see the "new shiny Courthouse Espionage toy" and build one of those instead of the "new shiny Castle Espionage toy" and build one of them instead due to not knowing Code of Laws, wouldn't you?


In fact, if we grab The Great Lighthouse in our second war, then every City will have a MINIMUM of Intercontinental Trade Routes (2 Commerce each) while many Cities will still have several Foreign Intercontinental Trade Routes (3 Commerce each). In this way, we can roughly balance our Trade Route income against City Maintenance Costs for the first several Cities that we keep, meaning that each new City will just have to make enough Commerce to balance out the Civic Upkeep Costs, and we'll actually make more money than we can make now. When you factor in working Resources like a Gem Resource, we'll definitely be making more money per turn than we are now.

We're not playing "your average Pangaea" game here. Nearly every City (probably every City that we will keep) will benefit from The Great Lighthouse. Since we have Astronomy here, every City will be IMMEDIATELY connected to our Trade Network--which means immediate use of high-powered Trade Routes when coming out of revolt and even means immediate access to our existing Resources for the new Cities and not-too-long for access to our new Resources in our old Cities.


Conventional wisdom does not apply. We're actually going to have bucketloads of Gold (I had well over 1000 Gold after capturing 3 Cities and waiting 10 turns for the Cities to come out of revolt--that's more than 4 Warriors being upgraded after 10 turns of warring). It would be a shame not to have 3-Experience-Point units to spend it on.


If we have extra, we could always upgrade an existing warror and replace him with a slightly more expensive archer.
Do we really think that we'll pay to upgrade 0-Experience-Points units? If the answer is "absolutely, yes, without a doubt" then fine, we can connect the Iron immediately. If there is hesitation about upgrading 0-Experience-Point Warriors, though, then I'm for building some Experienced Warriors that we will actually choose to upgrade later.


Do we have an idea of where Ragnar's fleet is?
That's a good question. I'm not really sure. We at least have a western Trireme that is in position to spot Ragnar's fleet should it come our way, although it is feasible that his stack might slip past this Trireme due to Ragnar's stack of Galleys having 3 movement points.
 
I'd prefer to overflow mace/treb hammers into a galleon and upgrade any warriors we have sitting around now, replacing them with overflow archers, to the extent we end up with extra cash. Building warriors right now slows down our invasion pace unless we upgrade an equal number of warriors into maces. And we don't have the cash flow necessary to do that since a warrior upgrade costs about 3 turns of gold.

Willem should be mostly dead within a span of 20-25 turns. I don't see him building any courthouses (or getting our desired techs) to make it worth gifting him any tech unless he has lots of cash.
 
I'd prefer to overflow mace/treb hammers into a galleon and upgrade any warriors we have sitting around now, replacing them with overflow archers, to the extent we end up with extra cash.
And that's fine. As long as we're actually going to have SOME units that we will not hesitate to spend our Gold on, then I'll be happy.


Willem should be mostly dead within a span of 20-25 turns. I don't see him building any courthouses (or getting our desired techs) to make it worth gifting him any tech unless he has lots of cash.
The point isn't that he will complete the Courthouses, but that he'll put them in his build queues and will waste his Hammers on Courthouses while we complete our army. That way, when he learns Engineering, he will be busy building Courthouses, instead of saying "oh look, I have nothing better to build than Castles."

If he's going to be dead in 25 turns, then there is no feasible way that selling him Code of Laws will allow him to learn Civil Service in time to be able to build a single Maceman. So, no loss. However, there stands to be multiple gains:
- 1 turn of Anarchy where he's not learning Engineering so one less turn of potentially building Castles
- either a 2nd turn of Anarchy getting back into Slavery where he's again not learning Engineering or else him staying in Caste System and being unable to whip Castles once we land our troops, and
- him being busy on a high-priority Espionage build item like a Courthouse that won't help him fight us off, instead of building more Units or some City Walls.
 
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