SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

Before we trigger the turnset, I wouldn't mind seeing the planned Worker paths for the long term. That lack of info is one deficiency that I find with the "upload a saved game and figure out what I did" process.

In particular, we currently have the opportunity to Chop a different series of Forests with Worker 2 (the Worker to the east of our capital) but once we execute this turnset, we'll be relatively locked in (unless we want to consider losing future Worker turns).

So, I'm appreciate seeing a high level plan for Worker actions... maybe a map, maybe signs in a saved game, maybe a description... whatever... so that we can figure out if the planned moves for Worker 2 in the current turnset are the right ones to make.
 
Also, I'd like to have an idea of what we're doing in Gem City... at the end of the current turnset, it looks like Gem Citiy will be working the Gem while Pig City will be stuck working an unimproved square.

We could instead work the PFor Silk square in Gem City and the GGem in Pig City for a couple of turns and still grow Gem City to Size 4 at the same time... but maybe we're using that extra bit of Food for some whipping or something?

It doesn't affect Mitchum's turnset directly, other than him possibly remembering to select the PFor Silk square as being worked at the end of the turnset by Gem City, while leaving the GGem worked by Pig City... just to avoid us forgetting when the next player picks up the real saved game... but only if that's what we want to do... if we really need that extra Food in Gem City, we won't do it; I can't say because I'm not sure what the detailed plan for Gem City is in regards to City growth and/or whipping of said growth.

I.e. We will end the turnset with 3/26 Food in Gem City's Foodbox; working the GGem nets us 6 Food per turn; working the PFor Silk nets us 5 Food per turn. In particular, we could still grow to Size 4 exactly by working the PFor Silk for 1 turn; but, if we are whipping instead of growing precisely and if we want the extra Food from an unimproved GPig in Pig City, then maybe we want things how Mitchum has them at the end of his PPP test saved game.
 
Okay, I have played with non-Binary-Science. Let's just forget it and stick with Mitchum's stated method of Binary Science.

Most approaches leave us behind the ideal approach out of all of the non-Binary-Science scenarios by 2 Flasks (i.e. being up only 2 Flasks while being short 3 Gold) and the ideal approach ends up with us having 4 Flasks in place of 3 Gold... which may actually just translate into being the same thing or close enough that it's probably not worth farting around with.

We could probably have gained a couple of Commerce if I had more than a 2-turn-leeway to play with, but since we don't, I have to lose 1 Commerce even though I gain some bonus Flasks, so it roughly balances out any gains that I can find us making. Since the potential gain is so marginal and might be "imaginary" (is +4 Flasks really better than +3 Gold--it's hard to say and may not translate into a gain), it's better just to leave the Science Rates as written, to avoid mistakes (as I said, most paths that aren't the ideal non-Binary-Science one fall behind Binary Science, so one error would be costly).
 
Looks pretty good, Mitchum. Just one adjustment for the library:
On t52, work the plains hill forest instead of the spices. On t53, stop working the plains hill forest, and work the spices instead.

On Binary research vs non binary: it doesn't matter too much - there can sometimes be mid-points (especially 50%) that work just as well, but we just have to be sure not to have excess gold in the bank, and not enough beakers to learn a critical tech on the turn we want it.

The warrior in the SW doesn't concern me much - it's highly unlikely that there's a Panther - there's not much room for a jungle it needs to spawn, and Liz's scout has just come up the spoke.
 
Dhoom is right about the SW warrior. He doesn't necessarily need to fogbust the eastern side. On the other hand, that's the only area that might impact our immediate settling decision (with Canal), so either he does that before the settler moves or doesn't really need to at all, because the wb will soon enough. Actually, I guess it wouldn't even affect teh settler move anyway.... :)
 
If I didn't respond to someone's comments, it either doesn't apply to this turnset or I've incorporated it.

T48 when the Silk stops being worked in the capital might be a good time to "enable" the Silk in Gem City's city view...

We just grow to size 3 on the final turn of my turnset, so this doesn't impact me.

T49 Warrior 2 moves 1W... do we feel safe from Barb 2-movement-point animals? It's risky if Panthers can still be about; in Panthers could still be alive, then we can always consider doing this move later when we're confident that all of the Barb Animals have disappeared. Actually, the same could be said of the 1S, 1N moves, but it's a bit safer since you're moving 1S onto a Grassland Forest, but still potentially need not be done yet.

In fact, if we are sending out exploring Work Boats in both directions, then these moves are just risking our crucial Warrior and losing our Fortification bonus without any added value, am I right?

Based on the fact that barb animals are no longer spawning, I think these moves are safe. I can see far enough when on the hill such that I won't move if I see any units. There is a small possibility that we will meet another AI or spot something interesting with these moves. Doing them now, even if we do them with a WB in several turns, should be of small enough risk that they are worth it.

As for moving Warrior 3 to the north... snip...

So, perhaps it can move 1NE GFor, 1N PFor, 1NW GHFor Riv, giving us the flexibility of moving to either 1N Oasis or 1NW GFor Riv on the following turn.

Will do. Although, doesn't N -> N -> N put us on the same tile as the NE -> N -> NW you proposed... :crazyeye:

Before we trigger the turnset, I wouldn't mind seeing the planned Worker paths for the long term. That lack of info is one deficiency that I find with the "upload a saved game and figure out what I did" process.

I was following ZPV's plan, which gets us the GLH at an early date. Plus, the forests I've chopped and where we end with Worker 2 gives us a lot of flexibility. He can move to Washington-3E, to the NE toward Marble or to the SW depending on what we want to do next. This may not be "optimum" for forest re-growth, but it is flexible. If you want to change the chopping pattern, please propose something different in the next 2 hours.

ZPV said:
On t52, work the plains hill forest instead of the spices. On t53, stop working the plains hill forest, and work the spices instead.

Done.

The PPP has been updated with changes in RED.
 
Dhoom is right about the SW warrior. He doesn't necessarily need to fogbust the eastern side. On the other hand, that's the only area that might impact our immediate settling decision (with Canal), so either he does that before the settler moves or doesn't really need to at all, because the wb will soon enough. Actually, I guess it wouldn't even affect teh settler move anyway.... :)

:confused: Are you proposing that I just stay fortified on the hill? I can hear the voices in your head debating with each other... :lol:
 
We just grow to size 3 on the final turn of my turnset, so this doesn't impact me.
Well, whoever comes after you will just have to be attentive to the thought that they may need to steal a square from the capital for Gem City then.


Based on the fact that barb animals are no longer spawning, I think these moves are safe. I can see far enough when on the hill such that I won't move if I see any units. There is a small possibility that we will meet another AI or spot something interesting with these moves. Doing them now, even if we do them with a WB in several turns, should be of small enough risk that they are worth it.
The risks are:
1. A Panther or a Wolf exists and attacks us, particularly when you move to the Grassland Sheep to the west (I am less concerned about the move to the Grassland Forest to the south)
2. Any one-movement-point Barb unit wanders up and decides to attack us when we have no Fortification bonus

The risks are small but I don't see the reward outweighing them, since we really can't afford to let any Barb units come up toward Gem City this early on.

It's a neat thing to notice that we can relatively safely explore these areas but the tiny short-term reward is too small in my mind GIVEN that we have already chosen to skimp on Warriors in favour of early Work Boats.

If we were instead going to build an Archer or Warrior in Pig City as the first build item, then I'd be less worried about the risk. However, since we are building 2 Work Boats and no more land units, I am strongly against the risk.


Will do. Although, doesn't N -> N -> N put us on the same tile as the NE -> N -> NW you proposed... :crazyeye:
It's possibly the same. I understood that you would have been 1E of where I suggested that the Marble-spawn-busting Warrior is moving. It's easier to follow what a unit is doing when either:
a) we also list the terrain of the square that it is moving to
OR
b) we list the unit movements a second time in a list like you and I were just discussing
OR
c) both of the above

No need to change your PPP's format now, though, as we've got the issue cleared up (I'm assuming; I didn't re-read the PPP yet).


RE: Forest Chopping Pattern
I was following ZPV's plan, which gets us the GLH at an early date. Plus, the forests I've chopped and where we end with Worker 2 gives us a lot of flexibility. He can move to Washington-3E, to the NE toward Marble or to the SW depending on what we want to do next. This may not be "optimum" for forest re-growth, but it is flexible. If you want to change the chopping pattern, please propose something different in the next 2 hours.
And he was basing his Forest Chops off of my pattern (which could have co-incidentally been the same as each other).

However, I chose that Chopping pattern because I was aggressively Chopping pre-Math. Now that we're going to have a time window where we aren't Chopping pre-Math (I am assuming that this point is true), I am not sure, which is my issue:
I don't know what we're doing with our Workers between the time of Chopping a Library and Lightbulbing Math.

If we aren't Chopping Forests during this time period, then there is probably a better path for Worker 2 (the one currently on the PH Riv square) to take, such as perhaps:
Mine the PH Riv -> 1W GFor Riv (Washington-1E) -> Chop the GFor Riv -> SW + SW PFor (Washington-SW + S) -> Chop the PFor -> be closer to the west if it will not Chop more Forests for a little while

or perhaps:
Mine the PH Riv -> 1W GFor Riv (Washington-1E) -> Chop the GFor Riv -> NW GFor Riv (Washington-1N) -> Chop the GFor Riv -> be closer to the north-west if it will not Chop more Forests for a little while


Are you proposing that I just stay fortified on the hill?
If LowtherCastle is not, I am. In addition to my reasons above, it would be one less detail for you to worry about... but you can certainly unfortify that Warrior and Skip his Turn each turn, just to keep an eye on the Barb situation to the SW.
 
:confused: Are you proposing that I just stay fortified on the hill? I can hear the voices in your head debating with each other... :lol:
No. I was saying you could skip the first move, because the wb will explore that. The tiles to the west will not be explored by the Pigs wb if it finds a land connection to the NW.

I'm fine with stahing put though, if Dhoom feels strongly about it. He's got a valid argument and in a game like this, there's a lot to be said for minimizing certain risks, such as this one.

Since I was the one who originally suggested it, I'll switch to Dhoom's side and vote for keeping him fortified on the hill. :) (Not that I think we need to vote. You just do what you decide.)
 
As for the chops, I'm against chopping the future Bridge City forest for now. I'd alos prefer to leave the Marble forests alone. So you've picked the optimal chop for now, imo.
 
As for the chops, I'm against chopping the future Bridge City forest for now. I'd alos prefer to leave the Marble forests alone. So you've picked the optimal chop for now, imo.
Are you thinking of saving these Chops for Bridge City and Marble City respectively?

My understanding was that we wouldn't be settling these Cities for a while.

I'm okay with leaving some Forests, particularly those that might encourage regrowth in a sparse area (like the PFor SW + S of Washington that is the Bridge City Forest which you mentioned) and which leave a Forest or two for hard-to-setup Cities like Bridge City will be, but I'm also okay with clear-cutting as soon as we pick up Math.
 
OK. I will play in 1 hour. I plan to keep Warrior 2 in the SW fortified on the forested hill. I also plan to chop the forests per the PPP.
 
Are you thinking of saving these Chops for Bridge City and Marble City respectively?

My understanding was that we wouldn't be settling these Cities for a while.

I'm okay with leaving some Forests, particularly those that might encourage regrowth in a sparse area (like the PFor SW + S of Washington that is the Bridge City Forest which you mentioned) and which leave a Forest or two for hard-to-setup Cities like Bridge City will be, but I'm also okay with clear-cutting as soon as we pick up Math.
Yes.

I agree that we're not likely to settle those cities for a while, but Bridge City in particular will take forever to become useful without at least one chop for a monument (or library?), since we won't have caste systems to expand borders. It might not even be worth settling, except for its proximity to the capital.
 
@ZPV

Where do you have Worker 2 going next after chopping the forestes at Washington-NE and Washington E? I assume that we won't be chopping any more since Math is just around the corner...

EDIT: Have you worked out these details in your latest GLH test or do they still need to be optimized. You said something about possbily adjusting the workers some.
 
Okay, so can we get a clear idea of what is happening with Forest Chopping post-Chopping of the capital's Library?

a) Are we putting Forest Chopping on hold until Math comes in?
b) Are we just pre-Chopping until Math comes in?
c) Are we just going ahead with Forest Chopping more Forests pre-Math?


I ask because Worker 2 (on the PH Riv square right now) probably shouldn't stay on the west side of the capital if we're going to stop Chopping for a period of time there; it should probably be closer to the west, near our other two Cities, where it can at least help out in doing something during next turnset.

That's about the only part that I see as a potential concern with the current plan: the fact that we're using a pre-Lightbulbing-Math Forest Chopping pattern but are not planning to go with a Lightbulbing Math approach.


Edit: cross-posted with Mitchum.
 
@ZPV

Where do you have Worker 2 going next after chopping the forestes at Washington-NE and Washington E? I assume that we won't be chopping any more since Math is just around the corner...

I've been mostly going ahead and chopping anyway - it's then headed to Wash-3E. The hammers we save by waiting for maths are offset by cities being founded later, their tiles being improved later, etc.

I haven't been saving all three of Marble's forests. I do think that Wash-1E is the right position, lacking a full worker plan - it's very flexible there.
 
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