SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

I think I'm getting lost in the discussion here

Sorry. I imagine it's difficult to follow the discussion without careful study of ZPV's saves and doing some testing as well.

Can someone tell me what the open items are that we're debating? It sounds like LC has doubts about the GLH and we're trying to figure out the ideal GLH date that doesn't sacrifice too much on the REX front. Am I correct?

Yes.

We have a couple basic dilemmas:
1. REXing up to 8 cities competes with building the GLH and Mids.
2. Whether to research Const+HBR asap and do limited or all-out warring or delay that and go for Astro.


My problem is:
1. I'm not sure how much building the GLH slows down our Astro date.
2. I'm not sure how useful the GLH is for us, both for helping our empire and for slowing down another.
3. I'm not sure whether or not the ducks can conquer 5 AIs with a Constr+HBR beeline.

How realistic do you think it is that a good team could conquer 5 AIs by beelining HBR+Constr?

 

[Mitchum]

Sorry for the delay on the PPP. I'm capturing ideas and I'll try to get something posted later today.

@shyuhe I think LC is on board with getting the GLH now. It looks like he argued with himself for a few posts and was finally able to convince himself that we don't want the AI to get the GLH.

EDIT: xpost with LC.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Yes, worker first. The point of revolting now is that our worker hasn't finished the mine yet, and that one extra hammer allows us to grow to pop6 a turn earlier.

So, you are able to be at Size 6, with a Worker, a Warrior, and a Library built from the capital by Turn 56 instead of Turn 57 by revolting to Slavery right away?

 

[ZPV]

So, you are able to be at Size 6, with a Worker, a Warrior, and a Library built from the capital by Turn 56 instead of Turn 57 by revolting to Slavery right away?

The warrior and growth happen at the end of t56 - I attached a save of this in post 918. Here's a link to it test save t56

Without that extra hammer, to build the library at the end of t55 we need to work the PHF for an extra turn, which means we don't have enough food to grow.

 

[shyuhe]

My problem is:
1. I'm not sure how much building the GLH slows down our Astro date.

I'm pretty sure GLH will not slow it down, as the extra commerce from even intra-empire trade routes will help pay the bills (since we're likely going farms and not cottages). If it slows it down, it'll only be by a few turns and I think that's something we can afford since the GLH provides a safer empire development strategy.

2. I'm not sure how useful the GLH is for us, both for helping our empire and for slowing down another.

It slows down our rex a bit, but I think it's better to get a stable economic base to go with a more moderate rex rather than a massive expansion followed by an economic crash. We will need to chug pretty far into the tech tree so we can't completely forget our economy.

3. I'm not sure whether or not the ducks can conquer 5 AIs with a Constr+HBR beeline.

For emperor team AI, I don't think it's realistic on normal speed. I can see a team taking out one, maybe two teams. But definitely not enough for domination/conquest. The AI on this map will tech faster than the AI did in SGOTM 13, so we should expect to see LB before we can finish our military campaign. Given the logistical issues of a hub map + normal speed, cat/phant will not finish the AI for us.

That being said, it may give us some excellent land so I think it's worth considering an early strike against another AI if we can find a quick galley route to avoid running up and down the spokes.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay. So you're planning to play to T56, Mitchum?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The warrior and growth happen at the end of t56 - I attached a save of this in post 918. Here's a link to it test save t56

Without that extra hammer, to build the library at the end of t55 we need to work the PHF for an extra turn, which means we don't have enough food to grow.

Okay, so the big difference that you are gunning for (I don't recall seeing this point being explained, but if it was, I missed it) seems to be that we can hire 1 Scientist for 1 extra turn.

That way, we spend 8 turns with 12 GPP = 8 + 12 = 96 GPP plus 1 turn of 6 GPP = 96 + 6 = 102 GPP, which nets us our first Great Person 1 turn sooner (100 GPP required for the first Great Person) compared to waiting 1 more turn to complete the Library and hire 2 Scientists.

I was confused when you talked about wanting 1 extra Hammer because you actually have more than enough Hammers to complete the Warrior at the end of Turn 56... but it's that 1 turn earlier of hiring 1 Scientist that makes the difference, if I am following things correctly.

 

[Mitchum]

Okay. So you're planning to play to T56, Mitchum?

Assuming the GLH debate has been resolved (i.e. we agree that we want them), they I will play through Sailing and pass the reigns after that. If we're aren't 100% sure on the GLH, then I think the discussion should continue.

Re-evaluting big decisions like the GLH is good and healthy. We need to challenge our assumptions and plans from time to time so that we don't go charging full steam ahead down the wrong path.

I'll post a PPP later today and plan on playing tomorrow AM.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Looking at ZPV's "I've Lost Count 1240 BC" saved game, it seems like we're just finishing up a Work Boat in Pig City and are at Size 4... but because we whipped in Gem City, Gem City steals the Wheat and thus Pig City is only working a 2-Food Grassland square.

Could we instead consider building 2 Archers in place of the Work Boat, where one of the Archers gets whipped? That or 1 Archer and 1 Work Boat?

I fear that we lack spawn busters and it could even be argued that an early Archer could partially-spawn-bust, partially Barb-Warrior-hunt in an effort to pick up a bit of early Experience Points.


So, yeah, maybe 1 Archer and still get the Work Boat, with one of them being whipped so that we're not at Size 4 working an unimproved square...

Of course, you guys talked about juggling the Workers to be able to work a PH Mine instead, but even then, we could afford to not be working a Lake with our 4th citizen in place of having that extra Archer out (by having whipped that 4th citizen), right?

 

[ZPV]

Looking at ZPV's "I've Lost Count 1240 BC" saved game, it seems like we're just finishing up a Work Boat in Pig City and are at Size 4... but because we whipped in Gem City, Gem City steals the Wheat and thus Pig City is only working a 2-Food Grassland square.

Could we instead consider building 2 Archers in place of the Work Boat, where one of the Archers gets whipped? That or 1 Archer and 1 Work Boat?

I fear that we lack spawn busters and it could even be argued that an early Archer could partially-spawn-bust, partially Barb-Warrior-hunt in an effort to pick up a bit of early Experience Points.


So, yeah, maybe 1 Archer and still get the Work Boat, with one of them being whipped so that we're not at Size 4 working an unimproved square...

Of course, you guys talked about juggling the Workers to be able to work a PH Mine instead, but even then, we could afford to not be working a Lake with our 4th citizen in place of having that extra Archer out (by having whipped that 4th citizen), right?

That stuff is way down the line. I was growing to 4, to whip a settler, but I'm sure there's better city management to be done there.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@Dhoom

We also researched myst instead of pottery in that test. I'd prefer to see us 2popping a granary in Pigs about that time. And elsewhere just as soon as good timing dictates, bushel-wise.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So are you comfortable with just having 2 spawn-busting Warriors in the north, then later whipping an emergency Archer if needed, or can we aim to start building a Warrior or Archer in Pig City from the get go?

 

[Mitchum]

ZPV's save has us building a warrior in Pigs as a first build item. If we also road the gems, I'm under the impression that this warrior is not needed for MP happiness and can instead be used as a spawn buster. Is this a wrong assumption, ZPV?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'd build a wb in Pigs straight off. We want TRs. We want to know if there are islands. Wbs travel slowly. We can whip an archer if need be.

 

[Mitchum]

I was building a WB in my testing but thought we "might" need said warrior for MP duty. If not, I agree that a WB is better so that we have one WB heading west and another heading south.

 

[ZPV]

Indeed, recently I've been skipping that warrior altogether and going with a WB straight off. We can get away without MP in Gems, either by building a road on the gems or growing more slowly by working mines earlier.

I'm happy with 2 warriors in the north. We might lose one, and if so, then we'll need an archer eventually. We can cross that bridge on t65 or t70 when we need it rather than t50 when we don't.

 

[Mitchum]

Proposed PPP through Sailing

T47 - Washington continues to build Worker 3. Research 100% on Sailing. Warrior 2 (spawn buster in SW) moves 1S to defog a few tiles. Warrior 3 (spawn buster in SE) stays where he is until Washington’s borders pop. Settler 3 moves to pigs-1S (3 turns). Worker 1 continues wheat farm. Worker 2 continues PHill mine. Revolt to Slavery.

T48 - Washington works the PHill mine (just finished) instead of the silk. Warrior 2 moves back 1N.

T49 – Gems City grows to 2 pops and works the gem mine and deer. Warrior 2 moves 1W. Worker 2 moves NW to forest at Washington-1NE.

T50 – Settle Pigs at pigs-1S. Set build to WB. Pigs steals the gems. Gems City works the wheat farm and deer. Set research to 0%. Warrior 2 moves back 1E. Worker 2 chops Washington-1NE.

T51 - Set research to 100% (Sailing in 3T). Warrior 2 moves 1N. Washington’s borders pop, so Warrior 3 moves 1NE. Worker 1 moves to PHill at Gems City-1SW.

T52 - Washington finishes Worker 3 and starts a library working the sheep, cow, corn PHill mine and PHill Forest (+3). Gems City switches from deer to lake tile to delay the WB for one turn. Warrior 2 moves back 1S. Warrior 3 moves 1N. Worker 1 starts mine on PHill at Gems City-1SW. Worker 2 completes chop at Washington-1NE. Worker 3 moves to forest at Washington-NW.

T53 – Switch citizen in Washington from PHill Forest to spices. Gems City switches from lake back to deer. Warrior 3 moves 1NW. Worker 2 moves 1S to Washington-1E. Worker 3 chops PFor Hill at Washington-NW. Stop all worker actions for flexibility next turnset.

T54 = Sailing -> Hunting. Research at 0%. Gems City completes WB and starts on a Lighthouse.

I will stop if any barbs start bothering our two spawn busting warriors for feedback.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I don't see any major points... all of these things are nit-picky...

I forget exactly what LC and ZPV decided upon for tech rates, but I think that they weren't at 100%... until we found that third City, we can run any Science Rate without losing pre-bonus Flasks to rounding errors, so that's a possible area to play with--some test game runs could tell you whether or not you'd gain/lose a bonus Flask and would potentially allow you to run at non-binary rates for a potentially faster tech. Sorry, I'm tired and can't think much clearer than that on the issue right now.


T48 when the Silk stops being worked in the capital might be a good time to "enable" the Silk in Gem City's city view... I'm not sure if they ended up using the Silk in Gem City but I was for a bit at some point. Of course, if ZPV was using it in the capital instead, to help with grow while still working toward the early Library, then ignore this item of feedback. You mention using the Silk but if we can equally use the Spice and don't need both, then Gem City might end up using the Silk (I'm not sure if they used it there or not, but I was using it at Size 3 in Gem City).


T49 Warrior 2 moves 1W... do we feel safe from Barb 2-movement-point animals? It's risky if Panthers can still be about; in Panthers could still be alive, then we can always consider doing this move later when we're confident that all of the Barb Animals have disappeared. Actually, the same could be said of the 1S, 1N moves, but it's a bit safer since you're moving 1S onto a Grassland Forest, but still potentially need not be done yet.

In fact, if we are sending out exploring Work Boats in both directions, then these moves are just risking our crucial Warrior and losing our Fortification bonus without any added value, am I right?

I mean, we're not going to settle City 3 down in that direction even if you reveal 4 Fish, are we (doing so could kill our research timing and/or faster Great Lighthouse)?


As for moving Warrior 3 to the north, we don't actually spawn bust additional squares (except for the Coast squares) by hugging the east coast. So, if there is a risk of Panthers or Wolves being out there, we'll be faced the next turn with moving to either a Plains square, an Oasis square, or heading west before heading north.

So, perhaps it can move 1NE GFor, 1N PFor, 1NW GHFor Riv, giving us the flexibility of moving to either 1N Oasis or 1NW GFor Riv on the following turn.

 

[neilmeister]

P.S. LC and I could go on like this for a month. Please don't let us. It'll frustrate the rest of the team and bore the crap out of the lurkers.

Nope, its great.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

EDIT: Nevermind, I see what's going on.