SGOTM 14 - Spooks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Più Freddo
From space, earth is blue
Upgrading. You can use 1:4 for short-rushing if you want. I assume we will short-rush Horsemen and upgrade them to Knights if we turn off science?
Okay. Logical. 
So even if some AI gets us Education, we'd still be worse off researching 1920 beakers at any ratio >1:7 compared to building KT.
We'd even need to build a carrack, find an enemy ship and win the battle. That might take another ten turns easily.
Astro gives us faster moving ships but KT good landing forces.
Looks strongly like we are building KT to me.
But by all means: Get AA to size 7 and improve its tiles! balanced food is sufficient, even a working an unimproved plains on the river helps!
Looks like size 8 or even 9 is possible at 10% luxury right now.
Size 7 even gets us the 2nd base shield (founded on plains).
So even if some AI gets us Education, we'd still be worse off researching 1920 beakers at any ratio >1:7 compared to building KT.
We'd even need to build a carrack, find an enemy ship and win the battle. That might take another ten turns easily.
Astro gives us faster moving ships but KT good landing forces.
Looks strongly like we are building KT to me.
But by all means: Get AA to size 7 and improve its tiles! balanced food is sufficient, even a working an unimproved plains on the river helps!
Looks like size 8 or even 9 is possible at 10% luxury right now.
Size 7 even gets us the 2nd base shield (founded on plains).
Andronicus
Emperor
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I have a Japanese exchange student staying with us for 2 weeks, so I wont be able to play this weekend (Tuesday is the earliest) so if Paul is able to play before Tues I'd like a swap thanks.
(Said student did spend all of 10 min politely watching me in the last turns of COTM54, but found my MM very boring and tedious to watch
)
(Said student did spend all of 10 min politely watching me in the last turns of COTM54, but found my MM very boring and tedious to watch
)I'll have a look but I think discussing till Tuesday would also be okay.
If you were still micromanaging the final turns of Cotm54 it sounds like another BC-victory to me...
I don't want to read anything more about it...
If you were still micromanaging the final turns of Cotm54 it sounds like another BC-victory to me...
I don't want to read anything more about it...
Yilar
Prince
The QSC has been uploaded. A quick look shows that we are in first place (If you ignore the fact that Team Klarius has lit)
The main points:
1. We are equal to Klarius in techs (except for lit), the other 2 teams are somewhat behind
2. Even though we only have 1 granary we are ahead in pop, by quite a bit (10%+). The 1-turn worker factory seems to be paying off
3. We have the least amount of buildings, only 5 rax and a granary. All the other teams have libaries, markets and even some harbor(?).
4. I assume Team Elite and Klarius are going for MT or astro, since they have 4-5 libs, and Team Ivan is gonna stick to knights because they have 2 markets.
This brings up another good point. Should we build markets in HH and SS, atm they are producing 24 and 22 commerce. In 8-9 turns we will have chiv, and we should then be running maximum tax for the rest of the game, with maximum 10% lux, that means these markets would easily pay back for themselfs quite quickly. Also we could join a bunch of workers into these cities without having to worry about lux, as the market would solve that.
The main points:
1. We are equal to Klarius in techs (except for lit), the other 2 teams are somewhat behind
2. Even though we only have 1 granary we are ahead in pop, by quite a bit (10%+). The 1-turn worker factory seems to be paying off
3. We have the least amount of buildings, only 5 rax and a granary. All the other teams have libaries, markets and even some harbor(?).
4. I assume Team Elite and Klarius are going for MT or astro, since they have 4-5 libs, and Team Ivan is gonna stick to knights because they have 2 markets.
This brings up another good point. Should we build markets in HH and SS, atm they are producing 24 and 22 commerce. In 8-9 turns we will have chiv, and we should then be running maximum tax for the rest of the game, with maximum 10% lux, that means these markets would easily pay back for themselfs quite quickly. Also we could join a bunch of workers into these cities without having to worry about lux, as the market would solve that.
ControlFreak
Not An Addict, Really
Hi All, sorry for the absence, but I've got my laptop back from IT and have been furiously trying to find a way around my bad third disk. I think I managed it with backups from my other computer. I've opened one of our saves sucessfully ,but haven't played any game yet.
If you want me to attempt a turnset between now and Tuesday, I would love to give it a shot.
As for the questions raised already, I agree with most of the discussion:
We'll be hanging on to the Ottoman war for the full 20 turns, so there's no sense extending ourselves on that front. It's worth moving troops into a position to get the GLH from the Arabs, as well as preparing for the DOW potentially coming from Babylon (and Zulu? that seemed a little risky)
If you want me to attempt a turnset between now and Tuesday, I would love to give it a shot.
As for the questions raised already, I agree with most of the discussion:
- Stick with Horsemen then Knights
- Get AA and all our cities up to max pop (8-9, maybe more with markets)
- Shoot for FP, then Knights Templar (may be able to build that simultaneously in a different city depending on our city strengths
- Keep the worker factory going until all cities are at max/improved.
We'll be hanging on to the Ottoman war for the full 20 turns, so there's no sense extending ourselves on that front. It's worth moving troops into a position to get the GLH from the Arabs, as well as preparing for the DOW potentially coming from Babylon (and Zulu? that seemed a little risky)
Not sure if we are in a hurry...
Did you already get your mediterrean resources pack ready?
If you feel ready, you could jump in sunday or monday... if we have everything discussed thoroughly...
Markets would be nice in core towns. We should start some soon.
But highest priority is pimping AA and having 20 horses imo.
We need to prepare to face and beat Babylon. Their spear makes me nervous. Hope he's in Ottoman land soon. Maybe we should sign rop with Hammu?
Some MM thoughts:
CC gets another shield from its city center on growth to 7. It needs just 6spt and will get +1+3 on growth. We can give the mBG to SS for 10spt there.
AA needs 2-3 joins next turn and horses tile from GG (and maybe another +2fpt-tile) to maintain +4fpt and still grow to 6 (or 7) in 950BC.
HH and FF: riversides to less corrupt HH please.
Quick road up to Aydin for extra lux.
Did you already get your mediterrean resources pack ready?
If you feel ready, you could jump in sunday or monday... if we have everything discussed thoroughly...
Markets would be nice in core towns. We should start some soon.
But highest priority is pimping AA and having 20 horses imo.
We need to prepare to face and beat Babylon. Their spear makes me nervous. Hope he's in Ottoman land soon. Maybe we should sign rop with Hammu?
Some MM thoughts:
CC gets another shield from its city center on growth to 7. It needs just 6spt and will get +1+3 on growth. We can give the mBG to SS for 10spt there.
AA needs 2-3 joins next turn and horses tile from GG (and maybe another +2fpt-tile) to maintain +4fpt and still grow to 6 (or 7) in 950BC.
HH and FF: riversides to less corrupt HH please.
Quick road up to Aydin for extra lux.
Andronicus
Emperor
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Sure go ahead and take next turnset. Just dont feel pressured to rush to complete the set by Tuesday.
We do have the option of immediate peace with Ottomen (although it is IMO too risky at this stage).
Both Zulu and Babs have a unit in our area and are vulnerable to the remove or dow ultimatum (esp if we make a few demands first). That would cancel all our alliances against Ottomen allowing us to negotiate peace with Osman (he will give Ayden which has silks as well as 22g). This would give us enough war happies to run 0% lux, Ottomen would be left with 4 towns, 3 in tundra, we could MA Russia v Babs and Arabs v Zulu.
Note, I am not convinced we should do this (I would like Edrine first), just putting it forward for discussion. There is the obvious risk that we may not defeat the Bab spear (on our horses) with the horse in AA and we have only a 3/4 and a 2/4 horse to take out the Zulu warrior on a hill adjacent undefended GG.
Perhaps we should watch for opportunity after we have taken Edrine?
nice idea to get out of that. 
I'm not too happy to leave the first beat to Babs or Zulus so I'd appreciate to gain back initiative here.
Not sure where the Zulu unit was...
Not sure either if Ottomans still offer that much after we "lost" our Alliances... so rather take those two towns at least before we try this manoevre.
And no rop with Babs, then.
I'm not too happy to leave the first beat to Babs or Zulus so I'd appreciate to gain back initiative here.
Not sure where the Zulu unit was...
Not sure either if Ottomans still offer that much after we "lost" our Alliances... so rather take those two towns at least before we try this manoevre.
And no rop with Babs, then.
Andronicus
Emperor
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I've had a detailed look at the diplomatic situation
With 24 oponents I can see this getting complicated, so it would be good to continue Più Freddo's lead in handing over the current diplomatic situation in full at end of each turn set. We need to ensure we dont break active alliances nor get peace with AI providing WHs.
Currently we have met 23/24 AI, the missing one is the Mongols. I suspect they may adjoin Greece since Greece appears to have had a GA (they had gpt avail for us) and no-one else appears to adjoin.
It may be that most other AI (other than our starting neighbours) are on their own island - this has implications for initial landings (thinking bikini babe techniques), and for PT tied MAs (they may be reluctant to break PT since no actual warfare may take place - although landings should start to take effect)
There is little available gold out there - Babs 35g, France 33g, Otto 22g and Egypt 15g - rest less than 10. Is it worth gifting currency and republic around to those AI we think may make adequate trading partners? OTOH we wont want to trade chivaldy and our plan is to turn research off after chivalry so maybe better to keep AI backward. I suspect many will drown in unit support costs anyway being alone on islands.
One other MM option is for DoD to give mBG to XX and use unmined BG instead with no loss of shields, but XX gains 1.
Some thoughts
Should we build KT first in AA, then FP with GA speeding up the FP build?
- waiting for FP then KT sounds like delaying GA too long where an early rush of knights are likely to be more effective than after island AI have built up greater numbers.
Do we want a settler for N,2NE of GG which opens 3 good tles for GG? HH (or SS) could build a 3 turn settler with 2 workers added to replace lost pop. Actually I'd rather do this in a town that doesnt have a rax yet - eg Iznik (which needs renaming ? Icky Iznik - I'm sure others can do better) would have 30 shields in 3 turns with the chop coming - just add 2 workers.
Use of iron tiles - as PF points out we dont want iron roaded until after chivalry - then I expect we will want a roading gang (6 workers) and pillager in place for connect disconnect so we can upgrade horses. We can mine the iron south of HH (we lose 2 commerce not roading it) and use the iron NW of EE for connecting /disconnecting (so dont mine it).
With 24 oponents I can see this getting complicated, so it would be good to continue Più Freddo's lead in handing over the current diplomatic situation in full at end of each turn set. We need to ensure we dont break active alliances nor get peace with AI providing WHs.
Currently we have met 23/24 AI, the missing one is the Mongols. I suspect they may adjoin Greece since Greece appears to have had a GA (they had gpt avail for us) and no-one else appears to adjoin.
It may be that most other AI (other than our starting neighbours) are on their own island - this has implications for initial landings (thinking bikini babe techniques), and for PT tied MAs (they may be reluctant to break PT since no actual warfare may take place - although landings should start to take effect)
There is little available gold out there - Babs 35g, France 33g, Otto 22g and Egypt 15g - rest less than 10. Is it worth gifting currency and republic around to those AI we think may make adequate trading partners? OTOH we wont want to trade chivaldy and our plan is to turn research off after chivalry so maybe better to keep AI backward. I suspect many will drown in unit support costs anyway being alone on islands.
Excellent suggestionPaul#42 said:
Yes, saves 1 commerce per turn as FF loses its last to corruption but HH doesnt lose its nextPaul#42 said:
One other MM option is for DoD to give mBG to XX and use unmined BG instead with no loss of shields, but XX gains 1.
I agree. Just need to be careful as our 4 most productive towns would be tied up in non military next 10 turns.Yilar said:
Some thoughts
Should we build KT first in AA, then FP with GA speeding up the FP build?
- waiting for FP then KT sounds like delaying GA too long where an early rush of knights are likely to be more effective than after island AI have built up greater numbers.
Do we want a settler for N,2NE of GG which opens 3 good tles for GG? HH (or SS) could build a 3 turn settler with 2 workers added to replace lost pop. Actually I'd rather do this in a town that doesnt have a rax yet - eg Iznik (which needs renaming ? Icky Iznik - I'm sure others can do better) would have 30 shields in 3 turns with the chop coming - just add 2 workers.
Use of iron tiles - as PF points out we dont want iron roaded until after chivalry - then I expect we will want a roading gang (6 workers) and pillager in place for connect disconnect so we can upgrade horses. We can mine the iron south of HH (we lose 2 commerce not roading it) and use the iron NW of EE for connecting /disconnecting (so dont mine it).
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
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- 1,672
Not sure where the Zulu unit was...
Not sure either if Ottomans still offer that much after we "lost" our Alliances... so rather take those two towns at least before we try this manoevre.
And no rop with Babs, then.
Map shows foreign units as well as my proposed settling site
Agree we take Edrine first (and we would likely have Ayden too by then). Of course we may not have opportunity then as Zulu warrior likely to move towards Ottomen.
Maybe we should move horse from AA into GG before hitting enter to remove temptation from that Zulu warrior?
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ControlFreak
Not An Addict, Really
Got it but taking time to strategize.
Good idea using wandering units to try to get out of alliances. We'll see if I can get our military in good stead to pull that off. As long as the Ottomans are vulnerable, I don't see any reason to shorten the war though.
I will do my best to post our standing with the AI at end of turn.
MM advice is taken and (hopefully) would seem straight forward to me.
What about rushing some (short rush partial) or all of the markets in large population, large commerce, military towns? I'm opposed to non-military builds when war is afoot, but markets seem really helpful in some places. EDIT: I see now that our bank account has gone the way of AIG etc. Down to 425g at - 35gpt means rushing markets are probably out.
Building KT before FP makes sense, but we need to own the GLH first. Perhaps arabs have become a more pressing target than the ottomans.
Iznik settler build in 2 to be replaced in pop with two workers.
Mine southern iron, leave northern iron until chivalry.
What are the galleys to do once built?
Yilar
Prince
I would wait with demanding a city from Ottoman till he only got 2 cities left, otherwise units are gonna be teleported back to his cap which is placed on hills, making it harder to capture it 
Più Freddo
From space, earth is blue
Exactly what I also thought.
Più Freddo
From space, earth is blue
Transport troops to America and all the other off-shore targets.
I don't favour starting to build them only after we realize that we have no targets left at home. Also the two scouting Galleys should be brought home once we have a good view of the land and found Mongols. Don't go too far!
Curraghs could be brought home to be upgraded or disbanded if we still have unit support cost at that time.
Yilar
Prince
I think our curraghs are to far away, plus we don't have any harbors.
Btw, I took another look at the market situation. And I think especially SS should build one soon (after chiv is complete ofc), if we join 5 workers into it we can get 15spt (or horse every 2 turns) without adjusting the lux slider. The market would pay itself back very quickly at size12.
Btw, I took another look at the market situation. And I think especially SS should build one soon (after chiv is complete ofc), if we join 5 workers into it we can get 15spt (or horse every 2 turns) without adjusting the lux slider. The market would pay itself back very quickly at size12.
Agree. Disband them as soon as we found the Mongols (north of Curragh3?).
Yep. Two Markets in core towns should be started soon.
Considering our GA, we should go for Arabs soon.
Maybe we should part with Zulus right now and bribe Russia against them?
We might block the Bab spear to keep the opportunity alive...
We need GLH to plan our GA.
ControlFreak
Not An Addict, Really
I'm going to work on getting the Dyes in our possesion, taking the Ottoman Iron away (do they have Feudalism?) from them and then mounting an attack on Mecca.
I noticed that Baghdad is building a wonder also, so it might not be able to support any war once Mecca is in our hands, so I don't want any Ally that might steal arab cities from us.
My worker priorities will be
I think even with Russia allied against Zululand, we will still see lots of impi in our territory. I'd rather wait on the Zulu war. We should still be able to catch them in our territory because their troops are heading to Ottomania, and we'll be capturing the Arab territory.
Babylon is a different story. I will ask their spear to leave as soon as I have units to deal with it. Then PT/A Russia against Babylon.
I think the rational on max research is that we're going to build up cash quickly after research is shutoff, which will give us the money to make upgrades. At the moment, it seems like we're going to deplete almost all of our cash reserve in the nine turns its going to take to get chivalry. So we want to time markets to come on line the turn after research is shutoff, as well as have workers ready to join the marketed cities. The timing of that right now is ten turns. Without short rushing, that would mean starting the markets right now. I want a couple more horses first, so I think that means short rushing to get the timing right. Each turn of accelleration costs 40g (10spt towns), and we need about 6 turns (three turns for two cities) which means I'm going to need an extra 240g. Between the planned surplus (current cash minus expected losses per turn), I think I can get there if I sell currency around for the spare gold, so I'm going to do that.
I still want to keep civs as backwards as possible, but selling currency can improve the number of civs that can pay us for our tech lead by giving them markets.
I'm going to start micromanaging and possibly start the first few turns because I don't think there's a lot of decisions yet to be made. I'll stop if I have any questions.
I noticed that Baghdad is building a wonder also, so it might not be able to support any war once Mecca is in our hands, so I don't want any Ally that might steal arab cities from us.
My worker priorities will be
- AA - get the town making at least 10spt
- DoD get the town at max shields size 6
- Get GG workings some hills
- Get an iron connecting crew (may start out as a two turn road instead of a one turn road)
I think even with Russia allied against Zululand, we will still see lots of impi in our territory. I'd rather wait on the Zulu war. We should still be able to catch them in our territory because their troops are heading to Ottomania, and we'll be capturing the Arab territory.
Babylon is a different story. I will ask their spear to leave as soon as I have units to deal with it. Then PT/A Russia against Babylon.
I think the rational on max research is that we're going to build up cash quickly after research is shutoff, which will give us the money to make upgrades. At the moment, it seems like we're going to deplete almost all of our cash reserve in the nine turns its going to take to get chivalry. So we want to time markets to come on line the turn after research is shutoff, as well as have workers ready to join the marketed cities. The timing of that right now is ten turns. Without short rushing, that would mean starting the markets right now. I want a couple more horses first, so I think that means short rushing to get the timing right. Each turn of accelleration costs 40g (10spt towns), and we need about 6 turns (three turns for two cities) which means I'm going to need an extra 240g. Between the planned surplus (current cash minus expected losses per turn), I think I can get there if I sell currency around for the spare gold, so I'm going to do that.
I still want to keep civs as backwards as possible, but selling currency can improve the number of civs that can pay us for our tech lead by giving them markets.
I'm going to start micromanaging and possibly start the first few turns because I don't think there's a lot of decisions yet to be made. I'll stop if I have any questions.
ControlFreak
Not An Addict, Really
I can hire scientists in SS and HH, keep 10spt and same bpt in both towns, shutoff luxury and 100% science to get Chivalry a turn faster. That ultimately gets us where we're going a turn faster at the cost of growth in SS and HH. Since we're building a pop per turn from CC. I think that's a good tradeoff.
