SGOTM 14 - Spooks

[Yilar]

I think it's important to get SS and HH upto 15spt asap, these cities can easily support that many shields without much corruption. HH needs just the iron hill mined (+2), grow to size9(+1) and then mine two plains(+2). SS is a bit more differcult as we need to join 4 workers and switch around the irragated bg from GG (or join another worker).

Btw, lots of these crap cities should probably be producing settlers, we are gonna need quite a few if we don't want to build temples in captured cities.

 

[Paul#42]

Should we be fortunate enough to get a leader, would we want a FP or army. My vote goes to FP - getting one before our GA would be a big boost.

It would be after the first turn of our GA (triggered by wonder in AA) but it might well pay off, depending on situation. A knight army would certainly help us gaining control over the continent which is also nice.
I won't rule it out but I'm slightly in favor of building an army...

Commerce
Greece and Arabs have gpt to spare - Greece 3gpt, would need to give mono, Arabs 5gpt, could give rep. I dont think either is attractive, I would wait to see if Greece gets more to offer and Arabs may not last 20 turns as I can see us dowing before then if we get the opportunity.

Nevertheless we should give Republic (or Monarchy) to the Arabs to prevent pop-rushing - at least the turn before we dow. If our peace is tied to another MA, we might want them to get it rather soon than late...

KT and GA
I see increasing AA as a priority.

I'm a bit disappointed it's still size 6. I'd have liked it to be size 7 two turns after QSC save with three worker joins.

We also need to cross our fingers Mecca doesnt flip IT before KT is built (perhaps we should aim to capture the turn prior)

We still might to enter via TBP as our capital keeps building workers - flips occur before build phase, right?

Wherever it is most efficient to build knights (eg 7spt), we should do so.

That's right, we'll probably keep Iron connected for some time till all (vet) horses are upgraded...

 

[Andronicus]

I think it's important to get SS and HH upto 15spt asap, these cities can easily support that many shields without much corruption. HH needs just the iron hill mined (+2), grow to size9(+1) and then mine two plains(+2). SS is a bit more differcult as we need to join 4 workers and switch around the irragated bg from GG (or join another worker).

Slave on iron will take 22 turns to mine - thats too long so we will need to add a worker to the party. Actually 14spt might not be a bad outcome as we wont be able to afford only building horses and upgrading them all.
I think SS might be better run at 10spt and allow AA (and GG) more shields. Our GA will mess with this as well.

Btw, lots of these crap cities should probably be producing settlers, we are gonna need quite a few if we don't want to build temples in captured cities.

I suggest putting corrupt towns with excess food onto settlers (eg Edrine, Izmit and perhaps Rio.

I guess that means we agree

 

[Andronicus]

Not much comment, I guess its really a matter of cont the same

I dont think I'll get time to play tomorrow (but will if I can), so probably Saturday.

My plan

Capture Bursa and if possible Istanbul
Try to save Ottomen's last town from Zulu and Babs

Attempt to get dow from one of Babs or Zulu once we have units in place for defence (MA the other and also Russians - but not tied to PT as we dont want war with everyone yet)

Plan for war with Arabs in approx 15 - 16 turns (could be earlier depending on if our hands are not already full), with view to next player taking Mecca prior to KT completing.

Look for opportunities for WH with MAs tied to PTs

Keep CC on wworker duty
Get AA, GG, HH and SS up to full size and production ASAP - prepare tiles, add workers
Put corrupt towns to settlers

Research Chivalry, then turn off research

Colonise northern iron - leave connected until all non elite horses upgraded, then use connect disconnect to build horses and upgrade

Anything I forgot?

 

[Paul#42]

sounds good to me.

I'm surprised we get not that many slaves offered.
Too few barbs around.
Did we get any on entering Middle Ages?

 

[Andronicus]

No barbs as all area pretty much settled

 

[Yilar]

Remember that Istanbul is placed on iron, instead of wasting worker on colonizing iron, why don't we just disconnect Istanbul, as we need to do anyway? We should be able to take Istanbul using just horses I assume.

 

[Più Freddo]

Remember that Istanbul is placed on iron, instead of wasting worker on colonizing iron, why don't we just disconnect Istanbul, as we need to do anyway? We should be able to take Istanbul using just horses I assume.

I agree not to build any colonies. However, capturing Istabul could be difficult with Horses, we'd need about ten fresh Horses collected at one place, which takes very long time to organise.

Big capital on Hill with Pikeman.

 

[Andronicus]

Not long till knights, perhaps worth the delay

Forget that - we need iron to build knights in the first place

 

[Paul#42]

Forget that - we need iron to build knights in the first place

Maybe it's better to sacrifice a worker for a colony than ten horses for a pike?

We will keep Iron connected for quite some time, so even roading one of our (soon) mined hills might be worth the effort. At least it also grants extra commerce there.

 

[Andronicus]

No point roading a mined iron which is later to be pillaged, as will require remining. I think we are set up for colony which will be easy to connect disconnect so recommend we proceed that way. We could road iron at EE, but that will tie up 8 worker turns (delaying knights) and is not a long term solution as we will want this tile mined once EE is more developed.

 

[Andronicus]

OK played a few turns and Babs have made peace with Ottomen forcing them to dow us - they immed took EE - a warrior defeating the vet horse there.

My thoughts are we MA Zulu and Russians against them

Turn log to follow and will continue tomorrow (have to rush out now)

 

[Paul#42]

OK played a few turns and Babs have made peace with Ottomen forcing them to dow us - they immed took EE - a warrior defeating the vet horse there.

I know why I hate to tie PT to MA with local rivals...

So let's leave Istanbul alone for now and concentrate on Babs and Arabs.
Should we join native workers to Ottoman towns to reduce flip risk?

 

[Andronicus]

Turnlog to date

Pre turn
Rename
Rio -> Ravaged Ruins
Iznik -> Queazy Quagmire
Izmit -> Paul's Putrefication
Ayden -> Zombie Zone
Edrine -> Yawling Yilard

That takes care of the important stuff

YY, PP, RR -> switch to settler, RR works irrigated tile
HH work coast for commerce (gets shields on growth)
AA -> 5fpt (takes horses off GG)
DoD - gives shield tiles to XX (still over run on shields)
ZZ -> galley
XX -> rax (can do 3spt)
MM takes horses from FF -> extra coin

Diplomacy and trade check
Japan and Persia at war - embassy with Persia 98g - too expensive
Dow Persia, reneg peace with Japan tied to MA v Persia (Japan gives us 14g)

Science dropped to 80%, still chivalry in 3.

IT
Arabs ask us to leave - OK
Zulu and Babs head towards Ottomen
CC worker; DoD & MM horsemen

850BC
Attack at Bursa - 1 retreat, 2 elite victories v spears -> capture, 1 resistor
Sell market, rename Wraith's Wasteland, build galley
Zulu's have entered middle ages
Arabs have 50g + 12gpt avail - pass for now
Trade Greece Engineering for 45g + 18gpt

IT
Lose full health horse to Otto archer
Another Bab AC appears in the south, Bab spear moves onto northern iron blocking worker
Resistance ends in WW and YY

825BC
WW appears for first time -> lux to 10%
Science -> 70%, still Chivalry in 1
4/5HM d archer
capture 2 Otto slaves
Russians have entered middle ages - they got free mono
Arabs now have 71g + 11gpt. Since mono now known on our continent, I trade Mono for 71g + 11gpt. I know we wont get 20 turns of this, but 10 turns is still enough gold for 1.5 upgrades horse -> knight.

IT
Aztecs req PT - no way, we have active MA with Romans
Apologise to Zulu for trespassing galley
Bab spear moves off iron
Chivalry -> MT (but 0% science)

800BC
worker -> iron
Greece and Germany now both have mono and feud
pop added to SS and AA
No useful trades avail

IT
Hittites want an audience - Nah, I enjoy the war happies
Germany request we leave their territory; of course, for now
CC worker; SS market; GG & BB HM

775BC
Iron colony built
4 knights upgraded and we run out of money
Disband a curragh which has finished circumnavigation China
Making 155gpt (unit support 14gpt)
Renegotiate PT with Rome incl MA v Aztecs (they pay all their gold - only 3g)
CA2 tells me there are workers for sale , unfortunately they are Ottomen
Sell Maya currency for 30g (at least they have monarchy so they may provide gpt in future)

IT
Bab AC loses to Otto sword attack, Babs are so scared of the mighty Ottomen they make peace treaty and instead dow us. Reg warrior adjacent EE defeats our useless HM guarding it (wouldnt have mattered since they had an AC which could attack as well) We have 4 knights avail to counter attack next turn.
AC d elite HM on a mountain near Instanbul
edit2
CC worker; HH market
Russians building GW
Sumerians building Sun Tzu

game saved here

 

[Paul#42]

Turns are getting exciting, finally.

Good trades.

Agree to bribe Zulus against Babs. It will cancel however when Ottomen sign peace with Zulu and they dow us...

So not too expensive, please.
But still it would distract some Impi and ACs... We can't use them up north any more.

 

[Andronicus]

Should we join native workers to Ottoman towns to reduce flip risk?

Perhaps I am wrong, but my understanding of flip risk is it depends on
1) the number of tiles in the big fat cross which are under foreign cultural influence +
2) the number of foreign citizens in the town. Whether there are 1, 2 or 20 other native citizens has no effect on flip risk.
This base risk is affected by
3) ratio of culture between civs,
4) relative distance to capital and
5) any foreign culture there before capture
as well as being able to be suppressed by military units.

Thus (if my understanding is correct) adding Portuguese citizens will not reduce flip risk. We can reduce by weeding foreign nationals by building workers if more than 2 present, by increasing our national culture (KT will be of some small help here) or just raze and replace (need to produce lots of settlers in this case).

CA2 est flip risks
PP 1.5-3.1%
YY 1.2-2.4%
WW 1.1-2.2%
ZZ & FF 0.3-0.5%
MM 0.2-0.3%
BB 0.2-0.2%
QQ 0.1-0.1%


My Plan
MA Russia and Zulu v Babs (not tied to PT)
deal with Babs in our area, then take Istanbul, then take Arabs
peace with Otto when Istanbul taken (MA with Zulus expires 3 turns)
phony war with Babs - let Zulu and Russians deal with them

Hope to play on in about 10-12 hours

 

[Yilar]

I know you get slaves when converting foreign pop to workers, but what happens if you build settlers? Does the foreign pop carry over into the next city?

 

[Paul#42]

IIRC the ratio native / foreign citizens is a deciding factor for the flip risk.
Above 1.0 we are better off than at or even below 1.0.
edit: I was wrong here. No wonder I sucked at recent Gotms...

The plain number of foreign citizens is important if they are in resistance.

I'll take a look at the war academy...

I know you get slaves when converting foreign pop to workers, but what happens if you build settlers? Does the foreign pop carry over into the next city?

Yes it does - but that's no gift
I'm not sure if the settler is free of upkeep - but the founded town is of foreign nationality, too...

Of course: Any corrupt town size >1 should stop growing (so no native pop is created) and build (rush) workers. 36g per slave is a good price!

 

[Andronicus]

If have a size 1 town of foreign nationality and you grow it to size 3 it will have 1 foreign national and 2 natives. A settler produced there will be native and the town left will still have 1 foreign national.
If you have a size 3 town of 3 foreigners and it produces a settler, the settler will be foreign (not good). Not sure if you have 2 foreigners and 1 native.

 

[Andronicus]

Of course: Any corrupt town size >1 should stop growing (so no native pop is created) and build (rush) workers. 36g per slave is a good price!

I disagree

I think we need lots more settlers - let those towns grow to size 3 with 2 natives, then rush a native settler. We get slaves from razing.

edit - I didn't notice your

size >1

You are correct - rushing slaves where foreign pop is > 1 to get it to size 1, then grow to size 3 and rush native settler