SGOTM 14 - Spooks

[Paul#42]

No.. The army we have is nice, because our continent is rather large, but some of the smaller islands it would not make sense to build an army there and be stuck there forever . But you are probably right, on some of the islands it would be better to have an army on. India with elephants, japan with samurais etc... I am just throwing out ideas

I'd even appreciate armies for use against isolated enemies if they have piled units there. Otoh they will be outdated and that civ would run unit upkeep that won't allow him to upgrade or build any newer...

Btw, how long would a reputation hit last if we were to attack zulu in 2-3 turns? And what would the consequences be?

It would last for ever, knowledge of our treachery would likely be spread all over the world and we would not be able to buy anything for gpt (we can survive without that I'd think).
We should still be able to sign rop and get allies if we pay with techs...

Also what would it take for ottomen to accept Basra as a gift? We not exactly on friendly terms atm. Because if we can get him stuck on the island we can gift his old cities to the enemy without worrying about resistance.

Now that one is even more brilliant.
That should minimize flip risk for their former towns.

 

[Più Freddo]

I think we should consider researching Astronomy for the Carracks. They have two more movement points, one more transport space and survive Ocean travel. The Oceans could become our super highways with three units per Carrack moving ten tiles per turn. If we load only two Knights into the Armies, they can come along.

Of course this would contradict going for Cavalry. But we won't be needing that, will we?

 

[Paul#42]

I think we should consider researching Astronomy for the Carracks. They have two more movement points, one more transport space and survive Ocean travel. The Oceans could become our super highways with three units per Carrack moving ten tiles per turn. If we load only two Knights into the Armies, they can come along.

That might be worth it.
Anybody care to calculate some travelling costs to move our units around the world?
Just for capacity, we'd already spare a third of our needed galleys.
Enhanced movement (faster and moving oceans) might spare another third of them...
Oceans would even be our highways without Astro unless there are huge gaps that cannot be travelled by galleys with GLH. It should be no big disadvantage to end the turns on sea tiles...

Should we ask some AI to do Theo for us?

Of course this would contradict going for Cavalry. But we won't be needing that, will we?

Not unless an enemy researches guns for us.
Even then it might not be necessary. Cavs would not show their whole power on small islands.

Now that we almost mapped the world, we could also start making plans which islands to conquer and which we could avoid (for strong enemy or distance reasons). Anybody feel like doing that?


edit: Quite a curve, our territory graph.
I wonder if I can keep that pace...

 

[Paul#42]

We could make peace with Arabs for Basra and 7gpt, 20g.

Ottomans would give Uskudar, 14g, 1gpt.
We might then donate them Basra, wait a turn for their idle units to leave Istanbul and expell them, too. This would trash our gpt reputation.
edit: Ceterum censeo Constantinopelem esse delendum.
(I think Istanbul should be razed - because of the Iron beneath)

With our good reputation gone we could go right after Zulus and Russia, maybe even allying Babylon
(edit: of course they'd get a nice real estate resort before )

In the meatime, we might build fleets (4-6 ships) on both coasts to prepare for Celts (still lack IW!) and France. 2-3 pikes or crusaders on each landing force should do the job.

Anybody hesitating to trash our gpt-reputation now?

We might also go after Celts first but that would require 4-5 more ships there, most from core towns that might as well train knights...

Ah, I'll sell the market in Medina, right?
I'll keep harbor and rax there.
Too bad we cannot sell the duct in Mecca

I'd love to know if there are settlers on those Zulu, Babylonian and Ottoman ships by our coasts...
Maybe one of them lands to settle between WW and ZZ


edit:
Do we trash our rop repuation if our worker roads a russian incense tile while we dow?

 

[Yilar]

We could make peace with Arabs for Basra and 7gpt, 20g.

Ottomans would give Uskudar, 14g, 1gpt.
We might then donate them Basra, wait a turn for their idle units to leave Istanbul and expell them, too. This would trash our gpt reputation.
edit: Ceterum censeo Constantinopelem esse delendum.
(I think Istanbul should be razed - because of the Iron beneath)

With our good reputation gone we could go right after Zulus and Russia, maybe even allying Babylon
(edit: of course they'd get a nice real estate resort before )

In the meatime, we might build fleets (4-6 ships) on both coasts to prepare for Celts (still lack IW!) and France. 2-3 pikes or crusaders on each landing force should do the job.

Anybody hesitating to trash our gpt-reputation now?

We might also go after Celts first but that would require 4-5 more ships there, most from core towns that might as well train knights...

Ah, I'll sell the market in Medina, right?
I'll keep harbor and rax there.
Too bad we cannot sell the duct in Mecca

I'd love to know if there are settlers on those Zulu, Babylonian and Ottoman ships by our coasts...
Maybe one of them lands to settle between WW and ZZ


edit:
Do we trash our rop repuation if our worker roads a russian incense tile while we dow?

But are we certain that Ottoman will accept basra once we get peace? The AI wouldn't accept cities from me in cotm54 after I had taken a couple of his cities and demanded some more, anyone know what determines this?

 

[Yilar]

I think we should consider researching Astronomy for the Carracks. They have two more movement points, one more transport space and survive Ocean travel. The Oceans could become our super highways with three units per Carrack moving ten tiles per turn. If we load only two Knights into the Armies, they can come along.

Of course this would contradict going for Cavalry. But we won't be needing that, will we?

Don't forget that Carracks cost 40s compared to 30s for galleys. I think we should stick with galleys, we are got ga now. The amount of ocean is rather low, we can easily cross the ocean with the current 8 movement points.

 

[Andronicus]

I agree with Yilar here, we dont need carracks. We need more transport now. By not reaerchinfg we have the gold to rush them when needed. Waiting till astronomy is researched delays our transport needs now. Nothing special about the carrack compared to caravel - 1 extra attack point is insignificant, and with no large expances of ocean we can go just 1 tile less with galleys (we just end on sea rather than ocean). The only real benefit of carracks over galleys is the 50% extra carrying capacity - important mainly if we are transporting armies (but would still restrict us to 2 unit armys unless we restrict them to 1 island as we would with galley transport)

 

[Paul#42]

I had hoped for some more answers...

So I'll continue tomorrow evening.
Some time for you guys to prevent my worst mistakes

But the main question:
trash our rep by making peace & dow Ottoman and by going for Russia and Zulu next - I'd favor that
or rather keep our treaties and go for Celts and France first - I think that wastes too much time and we won't miss our gpt rep too much (even less if we don't plan to buy techs).

 

[Andronicus]

I vote we dont trash our gpt rep just yet, but no problem with out treaty rep (they are separate issues arnt they?). So go ahead and do as you plan - peace for Uskudar with Ottomen, peace for Basra with Arabs, gift Basra to Ottomen, dow Ottomen and take (raze) Istanbul leaving them 0CC Basra. I think later we will want to take the current Arab capital as that is too large an island for 1 civ. We dont have enough galleys for French invasion just now so I support we go after Zulu then Russians then Babs since our troops are in place. We should then have in place a galley fleet east and west for raids againmst French and Celts. Of course we gift a crap tundra city pre dow.
We cant afford to waste time with troops sitting idle ready to strike but no target.

 

[Yilar]

Remember to sign RoP with island enemies before landing them, no need to see all our units get attacked, when they land.

 

[Paul#42]

Remember to sign RoP with island enemies before landing them, no need to see all our units get attacked, when they land.

Yep, I'll sign a lot of rop so we have another 19 turns to at least create beach heads on other islands.
Celts, America, France, Korea and India look like our closest isolated neighbours at first glance (at CF's diplo map). That will require some more embassies.

No more comments? So I'll continue as planned.
Probably five hours from now.

edit: playing now...

 

[Andronicus]

Er hem, India are giving us war happies, so I would suggest not making peace with them until we are ready to land

Do we actually need rop? With assault from sea we simply land our units next to the chsen target , apologise for trespassing on the IT, then dow the following turn. Of course if the AI is willing to give us cash for a rop, then fair enough.

 

[Paul#42]

Er hem, India are giving us war happies, so I would suggest not making peace with them until we are ready to land

Do we actually need rop? With assault from sea we simply land our units next to the chsen target , apologise for trespassing on the IT, then dow the following turn. Of course if the AI is willing to give us cash for a rop, then fair enough.

No worry, I only made peace with Persia (and with Ottomen )

On the interturn we'd have to dow or leave. AI has special tricks...
And after we fooled one, the others won't sign rop easily. But that's beyond my turnset, we can discuss later.

 

[Yilar]

The AI has a habbit of auto booting me if I put enough forces in their territory, anyone know exactly how that works? This is also why I want to sign RoP (most are free anyway )

 

[Paul#42]

here is the save

Part 2.

turn 2 (102) 510 BC (continued)
join three workers to GG ([12], 26spt)
join worker to SS ([11], 24spt)

diplomacy
Make peace with Arabs for Basra[1], 20g, 7gpt. Basra has an arab worker standing on its adjacent Iron hill...
Make peace with Ottomans for Uskudar[4], 14g.
I will rush a settler in Uskudar before I sell the harbor.
Gift Basra to Ottomans.
PT with Persia. No gain, no loss. They offer 3gpt, 45g for chivalry.

Short-rush to spear in HH, switch to knight in 2.001.
Still 5 horses in production, 1 to upgrade - enough for two turns'money.
Leave Iron connected, workers work different tasks.

Six knights to take Istanbul, Army needs two turns to heal and then go south.

Sell market in Medina.

IBT
CC settler -> settler
resistance quelled in Mecca
QQ, MM, XX horse -> pike, upgrade 3 horses to knights.

turn 3 (103) 490 BC
join worker to HH ([10], 26spt, knight next turn)
Switch GG to market (+17gpt!)
Found Shaka's Shelter.
Make sure, no units on Ottoman soil, dow. Six vet and one elite knight advance.
Switch PP and YY to wonders to direct chop to RR.
Disband cat in Mecca.

IBT
2 Hittites reg warriors land next to CC
Mecca slave -> slave
HH, SS knight -> knight
BB horse -> pike
AA rax -> Palace (FP prebuild)
resistance quelled in Medina and Baghdad

turn 4 (104) 470 BC
Istanbul
vet knight vs vet spear -> 1/4 spear
vet knight vs reg spear -> 3/4 spear
vet knight vs 3/4-spear -> 4/4 knight
e knight vs 1/4-spear -> 5/5 knight, raze town, 2 slaves and a cat captured.

outside
vet knight vs reg spear -> 2/3 spear
vet knight vs reg spear -> 4/4 knight
vet knight vs 2/3-spear -> 3/4 knight

near CC
vet knight vs Hittites reg warrior -> 4/4 knight
vet knight vs Hittites reg warrior -> 3/4 knight

Switch Baghdad to HE to direct chop to Mecca.
Switch AA to FP (in 8 @25spt)

diplomacy
Embassy with Iroquois (42g). Dow Inca.
PT with Iroquois, we get Alliance against Inca and Spices
Germans offer 17gpt, 50g, monarchy for chivalry
Russia offers 32gpt, 80g, monarchy for chivalry.

Mongols would offer wool for incense, silks and ivory. No need for happiness.


Rush native settler in Uskudar (112g)
Upgrade horse.
Rush slave in Medina (32g) and Damascus (28g).
Zulus have peace with Babylon.

IBT
Babylonian AC lands on hill N-NW of CC - i had blocked some important tiles for CC.
But the galley ends on the oysters, messing up growth on settler build...
CC settler -> settler
Mecca, Medina slave -> slave
Damascus slave -> settler
Uskudar settler -> settler
FF galley -> galley

turn 5 (105) 450 BC
near CC
vet knight vs Babylnian AC -> 3/4 knight

rush galley in Shaka's Shelter (112g). Zulu attack next turn.
upgrade horse.
switch CC to spear to grow back to [5], some Pikes to horses. (after disconnecting Iron)

IBT
CC spear -> settler
QQ, EE horse -> horse
Baghdad slave -> slave
GG market -> court (knight prebuild)
Shaka's Shelter galley ->

turn 6 (106) 430 BC
found Hammu's Harbourage.
Gift Shaka's Shelter to Zulus. Dow.
Zimbabwe
1st knights vs vet Impi -> 13/13 1st knights

near Ulundi
vet knight vs vet sword -> 2/4 sword, retreat.
vet knight vs 2/4-sword -> 3/4 knight

Ulundi
vet knight vs vet Impi -> 2/4 Impi
vet knight vs reg Impi -> 2/4 knight
vet knight vs 2/4 Impi -> 2/5 Impi
vet knight vs 2/5 Impi -> 3/4 knight, raze, 1 slave, 1 cat.

near Bapedi
vet knight captures 2 slaves

rush slaves in Medina, Mecca and Baghdad.
short rush galley in FF.

IBT
Zulu reg sword vs 3/4 knight -> 1/3 sword.
Zulu archer and Babylonian pike land up north.
Zulus rush Impi in Shaka's Shelter
Mecca slave -> slave
Medina, Baghdad slave -> galley
HH, SS knight -> court (knight prebuild)
AA emittes 1st Crusader
MM, XX horse -> horse


turn 7 (107) 410 BC
up north
vet knight vs Zulu vet archer -> 2/4 knight
gift Hammu's Harbourage (next to Babylonian pike) to Russia
Then I recall it will autoraze :suicide:

Reconnect Iron. Switch courts to knights.
Upgrade 4 horses to knights.
upgrade spear to pike.

Zimbabwe
1st knights vs 2vet, reg Impis -> 5/13 1st knights

3/4 knight vs 1/3 sword -> 3/4 knight

Bapedi
vet knight vs vet Impi -> 2/5 knight
vet knight vs reg Impi -> 3/4 knight
e knight vs reg Impi -> 4/5 knight, razed, 4 slaves.

IBT
Babs raze Hammu's Harbourage.
CC settler -> settler
BB horse -> pike
FF galley -> galley
RR rax -> pike
Greece and Germany come up with literature.

Zimbabwe
vet knight vs reg Impi -> 1/4 knight, take town, 5/6 resistors, market, rax.
1st knights vs reg Impi -> 3/13 1st knights

3/4 knight vs reg Impi -> 3/4 knight

up north
e knight vs Babylonian reg pike -> 1/5 knight

near Medina
vet knight vs reg Impi -> 1/4 knight

near former Bapedi
4/5 knight vs vet Impi -> 4/5 knight

rush slave in Mecca.
rush galleys in Baghdad and WW.

Upgrade a horse in BB.


IBT
Mecca slave -> galley
WW, Baghdad galley -> galley
QQ horse -> pike
GG knight -> knight
DD market pike


after flight check
Most units have movement left.
Alliance with Rome against Aztecs ends this turn.
I had not thought about the danger of Impis in ICSed exile area. We need to get an island for Shaka.

I'd like some culture in XX to get hill and horses without the need to build towns at RCP7.
temple in XX?

 

[Paul#42]

a couple of pics:

Iroquois embassy



I drew some invasion routes into a map. All lanes require either 8 or 4 movement points so our ships (starting from cities) can ferry one or two loads of units over in a turn.
(stupid me forgot to cut the pic...)

Spoiler :

 

[Più Freddo]

markh, would you play until 150 BC, please?

 

[markh]

Yes, I can ! I will have a look at it tonight and post my plan.

 

[Paul#42]

markh, would you play until 150 BC, please?

Sorry, it was early morning already (2am) and I have to work today...
Tomorrow I'm leaving for Prague (go Hamburg!) so I won't be able to play on (of course).

Zulus should be done soon. I kept Zimbabwe to shelter (and heal? - depending on flip risk!) the army.
Of course that Impi in Shaka's Shelter stinks. I hope the Zulu galley up there unloads a settler...

CC builds two-turn-settlers from 5.0 (10+4spt) to 6.0 (12spt + 1spt + 4spt).
I left one galley to block the oysters, there are some enemy vessels around...
I shifted the Iron connection to a usable tile.

As I had noted, alliance with Rome ends this turn, Aztecs will offer peace - we renew the deal with Rome this turn or how does it work?
(in fact that's the reason why I stopped playing )

 

[Più Freddo]

As I had noted, alliance with Rome ends this turn, Aztecs will offer peace - we renew the deal with Rome this turn or how does it work?

It's either way. You could end the alliance with Rome by going to the "active" part of the diplomacy screen and cancel the deal (leads to war), then offer Aztecs peace and make sure to get an Alliance against Rome in the same deal (try it before). Or you could simply prolong the deal from the same screen by clicking on it and see what you can get or have to pay.

Are we getting WH from the Aztecs? Then of course prolong the deal.