SGOTM 14 - Unusual Suspects

I already have an idea how to play next turns, I can play tomorrow if needed. Playing is my favourite thing, for writing about civ I'm lazy sometimes. I already wrote my plan, so for me it's easy to play according to that

I'm afraid none of us know really what the plan is. What you have written:

Calendar first. Elepults are not needed for now, because barbs can be stopped with archers and we'll get bronze soon anyway. AIs are too far away, so they don't represent a significant threat. Probably we'll need currency before HBR and Construction, because our empire will be big, and we'll need that 1 trade route per city and maybe even markets in 2-3 cities.
We have more nice land on south to settle, so our priority should be workers/settlers. One city can try to build HG, because other cities which have size 4-5 can make workers/settlers anyway. Newly built cities can make granaries while growing, or warriors/archers if barbs are too annoying.
It's too early to think about whipping granaries. Cities which are big enough to do it shouldn't do it now. Instead, they should keep their 4-5 size, and build workers/settlers. We have nice land to settle, and workers are needed to make cottages :)

We'll also need IW and CoL before military techs.



Settlers and workers are the best way to grab and improve land. Granaries could be sped up by chopping forest if needed.



One more reason to do like I propose, is the fact that we don't know yet where is the Wizard, what is he like, and how we could kill him, so we don't have global military plan yet. With big empire we would be able to conquer AIs two by two. I expected that AIs would block us at SW. That's why I supposed that war is much closer. If we decide to play aggressive, we can simply skip libraries and markets and build only granaries, lighthouses and barracks. For now, we don't need to think about those hard decisions. We can simply delay it. We have enough land to settle, so workers/settlers and warriors/archers are the best we can do :)
Testing is not much needed, you can simply play, and ask others where to put cities. Position is simple...for now :D

I think we would do very well on your turnset if you just play it the way you usually would, but on later turnsets we're going to have trouble following through because we don't know enough about where you were heading in your turns.

You don't have to write Tolstoy's War and Peace, just like Yamps suggested

- the big picture for the current game period

- research path

- general city management and specialization

- worker tasks and tile improvements (in general)

- dealing with AI

- special notes (for example: remember to cancel resource deals with A/R, check for possible AI trades every turn, etc.)


Looking forward to your plans!

If you do that, we'll have about 24hrs to reply, and only after we understand whats going to happen not only on your turnset but on the following one or two as well, will you have green light to play the plan.

To clarify and avoid two people playing at the same time I will write the roster as it stands now:

Jovan = UP (will tell us his plan and then wait for green light)
Yamps = ON DECK (will move to up if Jovan doesn't provide a plan in the next day or so)
Steehorse = stand-by (if Yamps gets bumped to the up position and is too busy at that time, you will be up).

And let me re-iterate: Right now the light is RED. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is to play turns on the official save until the light is turned to green. We could get disqualified if we do not hold to that discipline.
 
I don't like to spend too much time discussing some any particular civ game. I'm used to write less posts about civ, than games played.
I don't intend to make any more detailed plan, I already wrote what I'm going to do, and I'll do it the best I can.
When I get green light, I'll download our save, load it, and start playing.
If I'll have any questions about diplomacy, etc., I'll save game and continue after getting some advices.
We don't need to complicate when position is simple. In times of war...are we going to discuss about every unit movement?! I suppose not. But, anyway, war demands more discussion about strategy than this peaceful position. I noticed that I don't fit in here, because I don't like too long discussions about non-important small details. Paying attention to some details is OK, but global strategy is more important. I'm used to play carefully, and micromanage details. But I'm really lazy to write which citizen will work on some specific tile, etc. Before I load save and start playing, I can't tell exactly what I'll do in some specific turn. I'll simply play the best I can, according to plan I wrote.
By the way, I noticed on some screenshots that slavery was already used in some cities, and that won't help our land grab plans :confused:
Map obviously has much land, opponents are far and there are no vassal states, so by my opinion domination is more likely than conquest. In domination plan we can simply skip some advanced tough defenders.
SW expansion should be our priority, as Chris suggested long time ago, when we didn't knew there is much land, and when I expected AI is much closer, or maybe to north instead SW. Now we see that there is much habitable land there, so I suggest some fogbusting and expansion there :)
 
@Jovan:
:D Deckhand and I could have really used you in the last SGOTM... we two alternated play with minimal (none) planning and discussion. Of course by then the strategy was pretty clear and just to implement.

If you are going to play SGOTM's... our team usually has one of the lowest counts of posts per turn played. So there's no better place for you. :D

Personally, I think the strategy for this turnset is the same way. We expand as quickly as possible, not much to talk about if the player is the best suited to do that well. But I do have just a couple questions:
--how many turns would you intend to play? 15?
--what tech(s) will you research? Poly -> PH -> CoL ?
--will you use slider at 0% the whole time or plan to get to a certain tech as fast as possible (maybe that's the same thing, I don't know).


@Team:
With someone who plays as well as Jovan I don't need to know the movements and details before he plays. I'd like to learn from him, and I'm willing to do that by analyzing what he's done after the fact, since its no fun for him to be teaching people as ignorant as myself. :lol: The alternative would be to continue without Jovan in an active role, which I think would be a shame.

So... question to the team is: are we willing to let Jovan teach by showing rather than by telling? I vote yes. If we get a majority on that we'll give Jovan the green. If not, I'll take it as a vote of no-confidence and hand over captaincy to the deputy, with no hard feelings. I'm not very good at this anyhow. So many new players puts strain our our team dynamic and its hard to judge how you guys are really feeling. :crazyeye:
 
If he answers your questions, and if he promises to at least post the CivFanatics log file after his turnset, I'm OK with that. In the absence of those things, I won't learn much, as I can't figure out what he did...
 
I kind of sympathize with Jovan's assessment of SGOTM's. When I first joined, I was suprised to learn that it wasn't at all what I expected... I expected that the save just gets passed around with everyone pretty much agreed on the big goals. I thought it was very tedious and slow... but I stuck with it and learned a lot. So now I'm used to it and still learn a lot every time. But I think someone like Jovan will learn a lot less from me than I will from him. So he won't have that incentive to help us out, and we'll lose an opportunity to learn from him. On the other hand, I don't really know whether that is offensive to anyone who thinks that this is favoritism or special treatment. If so, then I shouldn't be captain given how I feel. Anyhow, that's where my head is at the moment. No need to open your soul here... just let us know whether you agree to greenlight a very sketchy plan, or not.
 
I'm fine with it, to be honest. I do think we will learn some things. I just really want a copy of the log that CivFanatics provides when you upload the save. Without that, I can't even tell what order things got built in each city.
 
Green from me for Jovan to play. I think I understand and agree with the plan to grow and REX with restricted whipping. I hope there will a little more explanation of the research path, if not before the play then after.
 
One thing I don't think we've talked about at all is tech trading. I don't want to bog things down with a discussion now, and am willing to let Jovan do what he thinks best, but I would enjoy the chance to learn more about how to do it well, so let's put it on a future agenda. Given what Jovan said earlier I'm guessing he'll research Calendar next (for the extra commerce and given cities more good tiles to work) and then try to trade it around, speeding our way toward CoL. Le'ts see how my prediction works out. ;)
 
@Jovan:
:D But I do have just a couple questions:
--how many turns would you intend to play? 15?
--what tech(s) will you research? Poly -> PH -> CoL ?
--will you use slider at 0% the whole time or plan to get to a certain tech as fast as possible (maybe that's the same thing, I don't know).

-I thought we all must play exactly 10 turns. I'm new in SGOTM, so I'm obviously wrong :)
-I suppose Calendar is next goal
-I'll probably use slider at 0% until we become sure what to research


About diplomacy:

I heard we gave some fish...was that some tribute or gift? Do I need to cancel it when it expires?
Why canceling some other deals with East?


Do I already have green light or we need to wait for more people to vote? :)
 
There are signs in the ocean showing when we made the resource deals. One is a trade and one is a gift. Both should be canceled as soon as possible [after 10 turns] because Asoka and Ragnar are worst enemies of everyone else.

You have to wait for kcd_swede, our captain, to give a final green light.

How long do you plan to play? 10 turns? 15? Until [X] happens?

Do you agree to copy and post the log that CivFanatics provides when you upload the save file?
 
There are signs in the ocean showing when we made the resource deals. One is a trade and one is a gift. Both should be canceled as soon as possible [after 10 turns] because Asoka and Ragnar are worst enemies of everyone else.

If some AI asks us to stop trading with them, can we accept that, or that is possible only after 10 turns?

You have to wait for kcd_swede, our captain, to give a final green light.

OK.

How long do you plan to play? 10 turns? 15? Until [X] happens?

I don't know. I can play as long as you wish :)

Do you agree to copy and post the log that CivFanatics provides when you upload the save file?

I'll try not to skip that this time. At my first uploading I ignored that, supposing that log can't be interesting to anybody. There is no such thing in usual GOTM submission, I saw that in SGOTM for the first time.
 
Hmm, no.

Other teams have top players as well and they all write plans before playing, at least a general outline. Most of them in detail like everybody else.

If we don't do that, big mistakes are going to happen. No matter how good you are, your play will be much better if you write a plan and go in well prepared.

Important details could be easily missed, for example:

  • there's a passage to the NW, we need a galley there to protect from barbs
  • resource deals should be canceled because A/R are worst enemies of two civs
  • Calendar? How much extra gold are we going to get without IW?
  • imo, fast CoL is our goal here. We can get it in this set and this will skyrocket our research. Land won't go anywhere.

It has to be clear, we won't get a competitive result if we don't give full effort. Other teams have top players planning and pushing to the extreme, why do we think that anything less than 100% would be enough for us?

EDIT:

Jovan, we are counting on you a lot in this game, given your civ playing strength and BOTM results. I also understand you don't feel like writing about civ a lot. But there's not even a remote chance that we're going to beat Kossin, Duckweed, Shyuhe, LowtherCastle, Cactus Pete, etc. without detail planning.
 
I agree.
With everything above.
Even the contradictory stuff.

I think CoL is more important than Calendar. Also, the AIs usually research Calendar fairly early.

I'm fine with Jovan playing, but need green light from kcd.

Another unclear area is cottages. Jovan has favored cottaging everything. But I think we are planning on a specialist economy and only initially cottaging the capital.

The detailed planning and testing that we've been doing is more than usual for this team. We certainly don't need that much detail from Jovan. But something to review and approve would be nice.

I say play a minimum of ten turns and a maximum of 15. Stop when a decision is needed or something significant happens (no matter how many turns have been played).
 
I agree.
With everything above.
Even the contradictory stuff.

I think CoL is more important than Calendar. Also, the AIs usually research Calendar fairly early.

I'm fine with Jovan playing, but need green light from kcd.

Another unclear area is cottages. Jovan has favored cottaging everything. But I think we are planning on a specialist economy and only initially cottaging the capital.

The detailed planning and testing that we've been doing is more than usual for this team. We certainly don't need that much detail from Jovan. But something to review and approve would be nice.

I say play a minimum of ten turns and a maximum of 15. Stop when a decision is needed or something significant happens (no matter how many turns have been played).

I can't say exactly what I'll be researching until I don't see position. If some AIs want to trade alphabet, then we should research some tech which they don't have. Deckhand's idea about CoL is good, I also actually often use Alphabet and CoL for tech trade with AIs in GOTMs :)
We have small empire, and simple position, it is not worth our time to bother with description of some my micromanagement during next turns (building units, moving units, tiles worked by citizens, etc.). Map is big, and if we continue delaying like this, we'll never be able to finish our game on time. In times of war, things will be more complicated.
Some of you wrote that we and AIs have small % of worlds land, so that means that either there is some large area in the middle of some kind of hub, or there is some big barbaric continent.
I'll load position after I get green light. If I load position and don't move anything, do I have to save it, or we simply play from the old save? I'm always careful not to break some GOTM rules.
 
I'll load position after I get green light. If I load position and don't move anything, do I have to save it, or we simply play from the old save? I'm always careful not to break some GOTM rules.

You can always open the save and as long as you don't do anything irreversible, you don't need to save and can start from the same save again. You can even do this when it is not your play turn. So you can check trade screens, you can even contact AI and see what they are willing to give for something, as long as you do not accept the trade its ok. You cannot move a unit, of course. But you can change city build queues and change slider and change research goals etc. If you accidently do something irreversible, you need to save the game and the play must continue from the new save. Otherwise you can play from the old unaltered save. Or a new save made from that, if after changing around the reversible stuff you don't want to have to do it again.

The SGOTM rule is that you can NOT replay any moves. Anything you can undo right away won't affect the state of the game. Anything you can't undo right away will affect the state of the game.

Open the save, and see that you agree with the proposed CoL next tech. 10-15 turns or when something significant happens is where you would stop. We don't need to know the micro. Yamps mentioned the specific things we are concerned about that a player who hasn't opened the save might miss.

there's a passage to the NW, we need a galley there to protect from barbs
resource deals should be canceled because A/R are worst enemies of two civs
Calendar? How much extra gold are we going to get without IW?
imo, fast CoL is our goal here. We can get it in this set and this will skyrocket our research. Land won't go anywhere.

That said, I'm not sure the last statement is best play... my experience is that the more land we can secure now, the less we have to take by force, and while we should not REX to the point we make CoL take forever, we have specialists for tech, and when CoL finishes we have slavery to whip courthouses as needed.

Jovan, after you open the save and have a look around, let us know if you think our approach is wrong. If you agree with the general direction, I think a greenlight is OK. I would need to write detail to avoid making bad decisions, but I don't think its the same for you so I'll greenlight it even without the details.

@Yamps: We have never come up short due to inadequate attention to details. We can try it Jovan's way this set and if we regret it we learned something. ;) Like he said, it isn't very complicated game situation atm.
 
I noticed that 2 fogbusters are badly placed, NW warrior and SE workboat. Warrior should go 1W, and workboat somewhere eastern.
Only Tokugawa-minded pair has alphabet. Pair's willingness to trade is probably limited by worse of two. In current relations with other 3 pairs...would they trade techs if we had alphabet? If yes, then we should research Alphabet after Calendar.
CoL is not needed yet, because you already built libraries for enough specialists. Techs before CoL, and IW we could get through tech trading.
Usage of slavery delayed our expansion plans. I'm quite surprised that we don't have settler for nice location near copper yet.
Building barracks at capital also look weird so early, I supposed we should build workers/settlers there for many turns.
Anyway, if undiscovered nearby lands are bad, then those mistakes wouldn't be real mistakes :)
 
Units prevent spawning within a 5x5 square around the unit. Those two fog busters are placed exactly where they need to be. If the warrior goes 1W, a barbarian galley could spawn 1NE of the mountain. If the SE workboat moves, a barbarian galley could spawn 1NE of the marble. I strongly disagree with moving these fog busting units!
 
Usage of slavery delayed our expansion plans. I'm quite surprised that we don't have settler for nice location near copper yet.
Building barracks at capital also look weird so early, I supposed we should build workers/settlers there for many turns.
Anyway, if undiscovered nearby lands are bad, then those mistakes wouldn't be real mistakes :)

:mad: :mad: :mad:

I really do not appreciate your criticisms of a plan that we all worked out together and got consensus on and agreed to do before my turnset. Every thing that you are describing as a mistake was an intentional decision that kcd_swede, Yamps, Xcallibrator and I decided upon after considerable discussion and debate - a discussion in which you did not participate until the last minute when you simply declared "what is correct" without giving reasons or explanations, and where you did not respond when we asked you questions.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Even in your message that I quote above, you simply say "my way is right" without taking the time to explain why. Grrrrr.
 
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