SGOTM 14 - Unusual Suspects

[Yamps]

I noticed that 2 fogbusters are badly placed, NW warrior and SE workboat. Warrior should go 1W, and workboat somewhere eastern.
Only Tokugawa-minded pair has alphabet. Pair's willingness to trade is probably limited by worse of two. In current relations with other 3 pairs...would they trade techs if we had alphabet? If yes, then we should research Alphabet after Calendar.

Fog busters are where they have to be, like Chris explained.

They will likely get Alphabet on their own soon. They'll trade it for sure 100%, as you probably know (no monopoly on Alpha, Monarchy, etc.) so I don't recommend researching it ourselves. Until we get IW, no Calendar either because we'd get a very small return from that right now.

CoL is not needed yet, because you already built libraries for enough specialists. Techs before CoL, and IW we could get through tech trading.
Usage of slavery delayed our expansion plans. I'm quite surprised that we don't have settler for nice location near copper yet.
Building barracks at capital also look weird so early, I supposed we should build workers/settlers there for many turns.
Anyway, if undiscovered nearby lands are bad, then those mistakes wouldn't be real mistakes

If we had continued our expansion, our economy would crash hard. Then we'd have to build cottages which are very weak given that we have the Pyramids. We can get CoL in less than 10 turns from this position and then we can expand as much as we want without economical issues. We won't lose the spots we want to take so we can delay settling a bit. Representation scientists are best improvements we could have, nothing on the map beats that. Btw, copper city should go right next to horses to make it absolutely certain that we won't lose them.

Barracks are not needed of course, that's just a leftover build from the war plan idea.

Finally, we won't lose time by making plans. SGOTM games roughly go like this:

24h from last play for the active player on the roster to confirm he's playing the set.
24h - 48h to make the plan, with the help from the team
24h to play the set

Sometimes it takes more time, sometimes less. If pressed for time, we play double barrel sets: same player does the plan for the next set and plays it, that's usually faster.

Plans are important for at least three reasons:

1. All teams aiming for the win do it, we won't succeed without it either. I'm positive about that without a doubt.
   
2. There are more ways to skin the rabbit. If one player has one idea and then another one comes with different views, things will crash hard if plans are not well understood.
   
3. Discussing plans is fun!

 

[Yamps]

Anyway, let's get this issues sorted out and move on, shall we? No time for me right now to post much more, got to make some tests for school kids to solve. I'm also moving to another flat tomorrow so there's that as well for the weekend.

About the current situation, I'll repeat my strong position about CoL. Best goodies to have on the map, I see us in a weaker spot if we don't do that.

 

[SteelHorse]

Hi All,
back from bus trip and looks like I missed a bit of the mini-drama. not sure exactly where things stand.

I will throw in my support for CoL to get CHs up and going and save crashing economy. And getting the horse city in the spot Yamps recommends as it also will act as a canal between north and south. These are probably two most important goals for next turnset.

one good stopping point might be when there is a trade for Alpha available. as we will need a diplo game-plan then. another might be after CoL so that discussion on next tech can be made with more info.

If we are shooting for a curri-based war, we got a lot of teching to do.

i am good to go if this is our plan. EDIT: meaning support Jovan or other playing it till then.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Would Currency be better? We have the Math prereq and it's only a little more expensive than CoL--actually less since we don't need to do Meditation and Priesthood first. Currency is also an alternative prereq for CoL (no need for Med or PH). We know somebody else already has CoL (and very likely Med and PH) so it seems like a better option for tech trading (assuming, of course, that enough AIs get Alphabet by the time we want to trade). Currency gives us an immediate economic benefit without needing to build anything (i.e, courthouses) first. (Goes back into hiding...)

 

[Yamps]

Would Currency be better? We have the Math prereq and it's only a little more expensive than CoL--actually less since we don't need to do Meditation and Priesthood first. Currency is also an alternative prereq for CoL (no need for Med or PH). We know somebody else already has CoL (and very likely Med and PH) so it seems like a better option for tech trading (assuming, of course, that enough AIs get Alphabet by the time we want to trade). Currency gives us an immediate economic benefit without needing to build anything (i.e, courthouses) first. (Goes back into hiding...)

We won't get CoL by trade so we'll have to research it anyway. Main benefit from that are Rep + Caste scientists, we have all those granaries built to support them. Courthouse in copper city at some point will be good to. The main benefit from Currency will be trading for AI gold, rather than the extra trade route. It will take some time for the AI to get that gold, I doubt they'd have much to offer right now. Currency is high on our list, but imo not just yet. I'm thinking Poly -> Priesthood -> CoL, trade for IW when they get Alpha, Calendar-> Currency. That's a lot of research to do, we'll need those Rep + Caste scientists for that.

 

[SteelHorse]

I was thinking that Currency would be the next tech after CoL. Perhaps even tradable once we get Alpha. That said I think it is a good question. Yamps - Which cities do you see running more than two scientists and how many?

 

[SteelHorse]

Did a little testing with the test game from Chris (test maps have be great btw).

Currency is interesting. Played to T103. Secured open borders with all. A couple of points. With the open borders the extra trade routes do add a bit of gold (see city screens). And Currency trading, at least in the test game, nets quite a bit. Plus Currency allows us to go direct to CoL. So Curr->CoL may be a better option.

Spoiler :

 

[kcd_swede]

My experience also says that currency will net you CoL in a trade. If we have several trading partners it will get more. We can't really count on random (if they are random and not manipulated by Neilmeister) personalities behaving the way we are used to. But its a better assumption than counting that they will all be Toku.

Captain duty time:
Sorry Jovan, the team is pretty adamant about having a plan. We're going to have a fairly explicit plan before we play this set. You can execute it if you are willing to stick to the plan that we fix.

I suggest Steelhorse write out the prelim plan... no need for a lot of micro but enough so that he or someone else could follow without too much trouble.

Once we have a plan, we'll see who is ready/willing to play it. Then I'll greenlight it.

The main point of the game is to have fun, and if we can't all participate in the planning it loses some fun for the team-mates who aren't the active player. So we'll stick to standard Unusual Suspects style, and we welcome all to join in the fun... but anyone who doesn't think its fun... its not compulsory to play turnsets - we can still use your wisdom.

 

[Xcalibrator]

kcd possesses the wisdom of Solomon.

We still haven't discussed what to do if we get a Great Eng instead of a Great Sci. Stop the game and discuss then, or decide in advance? Probably best to hope for a Sci and get the game moving again.

 

[SteelHorse]

EDIT: Updated

Okay a couple of questions.
1. Can we take a vote on Currency V CoL
2. What should we do with a.) GS or b.) GE


Here are thoughts on Cities
Chi: WB [growth onto lake]
Phil: Lib [growth onto FP]
Wash: Bar, Settler for Marble [growth onto cottage]
NY: Lib, Settler for Horse
Bos: Gran, WB [growth onto HFP]
Seat: Mon, WB
Atl: Wrk, LH

Arch1 - continue North scouting
Arch2 - heal scout west

W1 - Chop->Mine NE of Atl
W2 - Cot 1N of Seat
W3 - Chop 2N of NY
W4 - mine->road silver
W5 - Chop 1SW of Bos->Mine->Road

Stop after Currency or something interesting (ie, Trades available)
Oh - And cancel deals with East.

Any thoughts on demands?

I will run a test and post tomorrow using Chris's 550BC test map.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

If we aren't going to war (I guess that's agreed now?) then Washington could work on the barracks for one turn, then start doing settlers/workers until the barracks hammers start to decay.

I vote for currency first, but don't have strong feelings. kcd_swede is persuasive, to go CoL first someone would need a good argument to counter kcd.

Any demands to stop trading with Asoka/Ragnar should be accepted. Otherwise, I don't think anyone will demand anything. I would refuse to give any techs except the cheapest ones.

Great Scientist -> Academy. I'm not sure what to do with a Great Engineer. Settling might be best, since we are in representation.

Aren't the archers exploring as a team, in case they run into a barbarian axe or archer? Seems they should stay together. Is Archer 3 going to fog bust? What are you going to do about the northwest passage that Yamps spotted?

Seattle doesn't need a workboat. There are two available already. Seattle has very few hammers and should use them for infrastructure (I think Yamps pointed that out first). Why are you building a workboat in Boston? I can't figure out what it will do?

 

[kcd_swede]

EDIT: Updated

Okay a couple of questions.
1. Can we take a vote on Currency V CoL
2. What should we do with a.) GS or b.) GE


Here are thoughts on Cities
Chi: WB [growth onto lake]
Phil: Lib [growth onto FP]
Wash: Bar, Settler for Marble [growth onto cottage]
NY: Lib, Settler for Horse
Bos: Gran, WB [growth onto HFP]
Seat: Mon, WB
Atl: Wrk, LH

Arch1 - continue North scouting
Arch2 - heal scout west

W1 - Chop->Mine NE of Atl
W2 - Cot 1N of Seat
W3 - Chop 2N of NY
W4 - mine->road silver
W5 - Chop 1SW of Bos->Mine->Road

Stop after Currency or something interesting (ie, Trades available)
Oh - And cancel deals with East.

Any thoughts on demands?

I will run a test and post tomorrow using Chris's 550BC test map.

Thanks Steelhorse, thats just the level of detail we need to illuminate the parts of the plan where we benefit from discussion.

I vote currency for reasons stated previously. I think we should decide what to do if we get a GE, since it occurs in one turn if it occurs. (GSci is for Academy, imo). Since we have marble/stone, the wonder-rushing benefit of a GE compared to wonder self-building is halved. Bulbing a tech with GE is sort of wasteful, and would only be useful if we are on military path (machinery or gunpowder or whatever). Settling it would be the best use in specialist economy.

The question I have is should it be settled in the tech capitol or in the future GPFarm? Most rapid payback in tech capitol.

I know nothing about the workboat numbers. Chris played the last set with lots of attention to those kind of details, and he said:

Aren't the archers exploring as a team, in case they run into a barbarian axe or archer? Seems they should stay together. Is Archer 3 going to fog bust? What are you going to do about the northwest passage that Yamps spotted?

Seattle doesn't need a workboat. There are two available already. Seattle has very few hammers and should use them for infrastructure (I think Yamps pointed that out first). Why are you building a workboat in Boston? I can't figure out what it will do?

 

[Jovan Kukic]

Captain duty time:
Sorry Jovan, the team is pretty adamant about having a plan. We're going to have a fairly explicit plan before we play this set. You can execute it if you are willing to stick to the plan that we fix.

Good plan is always better than bad plan, no matter how good that bad plan was explained.

I suggest Steelhorse write out the prelim plan... no need for a lot of micro but enough so that he or someone else could follow without too much trouble.

Once we have a plan, we'll see who is ready/willing to play it. Then I'll greenlight it.

The main point of the game is to have fun, and if we can't all participate in the planning it loses some fun for the team-mates who aren't the active player. So we'll stick to standard Unusual Suspects style, and we welcome all to join in the fun... but anyone who doesn't think its fun... its not compulsory to play turnsets - we can still use your wisdom.

I prefer playing more than discussion. If not playing, I would simply stop reading/posting this thread. By the way, I probably posted more posts in this thread than on the whole site for more than 5 years.

 

[SteelHorse]

Good plan is always better than bad plan, no matter how good that bad plan was explained.

I prefer playing more than discussion. If not playing, I would simply stop reading/posting this thread. By the way, I probably posted more posts in this thread than on the whole site for more than 5 years.

Jovan - I think everyone would prefer you play, team would just like to make sure they understand what plan is. We all enjoying learning from each other and I have found your input to be very helpful.

 

[SteelHorse]

On WBs.
Chicago and Horse have fish - that's 2.
Seattle has Crab and Clam - that makes 4.
Marble has Crab - that makes 5.
Perhaps they can be timed better, but having the WBs ready when the city is founded is good.
Will do some testing later to verify when they are needed - no point having too early.
Should Marble City go 1W or 2W of Marble?
I vote for Currency as well. I count that as 3 (Chris, kcd, SH).

 

[Yamps]

My experience also says that currency will net you CoL in a trade. If we have several trading partners it will get more. We can't really count on random (if they are random and not manipulated by Neilmeister) personalities behaving the way we are used to. But its a better assumption than counting that they will all be Toku.

We won't get CoL in trade anytime soon. The AI that has it won't trade it and others are likely to delay it.

Are we going to trade Currency right away? They don't have Alpha yet.

 

[Yamps]

I prefer playing more than discussion. If not playing, I would simply stop reading/posting this thread. By the way, I probably posted more posts in this thread than on the whole site for more than 5 years.

Well, maybe SGOTM just isn't your format. These games are all about discussions and posting plans, etc.

 

[Jovan Kukic]

Well, maybe SGOTM just isn't your format. These games are all about discussions and posting plans, etc.

I generally don't like games which took too much time, or which are played in small amounts during very long period. I don't like SGOTM, Dyplo, PBEM, etc.
I like multiplayer 1vs1 and GOTM, and I also liked some historical scenarios

 

[ChrisShaffer]

On WBs.
Chicago and Horse have fish - that's 2.
Seattle has Crab and Clam - that makes 4.
Marble has Crab - that makes 5.
Perhaps they can be timed better, but having the WBs ready when the city is founded is good.
Will do some testing later to verify when they are needed - no point having too early.

Right - figure out when the border pops happen and time them for those. Remember that other cities can build the workboats. Definitely have Seattle build buildings instead of units, it has very few hammers.

 

[Xcalibrator]

i like currency. don't leave marble site open to barb spam.