I think you are right about needing CoL sooner rather than later. We want Caste Systems which enables us to hire merchants as well, or pop borders with a couple turns of artists. But... not sure how fast that would be needed, especially if REX is on the more relaxed pace you were advocating. I do not think it will take long for all AI to have alphabet if they have contact, either.
I have updated the plan still a couple of open questions:
1 - Sounds like a majority for Currency (last call for desentors)
2 - Academy in Wash with GS. Should we hold GE for wonder or settle for hammers?
3 - Should we keep archers together if so north or west?
Tech: Currency (with settled GS T95 it completes T101 see attached save and log).
Here are thoughts on Cities
Chi: WB [growth onto lake]
Phil: Lib [growth onto FP], Mon
Wash: Bar (1T) -> Settler for Marble [growth onto cottage] (need to check on hammer loss)
NY: WB (timed to for Seatle border pop), Settler for Horse City
Bos: Gran, Lib [growth onto HFP]
Seat: Mon, Gran
Atl: Wrk, Mon
Arch1 - continue North?
Arch2 - heal scout west?
W1 - Chop->Mine NE of Atl, Cot 1SW of Phili
W2 - Cot 1N of Seat, Chop 2N of Seat
W3 - Chop 2N of NY, Cot
W4 - mine->road silver, move 3S
W5 - Chop 1SW of Bos->Mine->Road
W6 (from Atl) - Cot 1SW of Phili
Stop after Currency or something interesting (ie, Trades available)
Oh - And cancel deals with East.
Other Notes:
Switch to 100% Res on T96
T98 NY tile swap to 1F2H
T98 Bos tile swap to mine
T100 Res 10% to finish Currency
Yield to minor demands.
For those doing testing must open borders with all.
Spoiler:
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 93/500 (550 BC) [02-Oct-2011 11:16:12]
Research begun: Currency (33 Turns)
0% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 15 per turn, 151 in the bank
After End Turn:
Washington grows to size 8
New York finishes: Library
Boston grows to size 5
Seattle finishes: Monument
Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Suryavarman II(Khmer) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'
Civics Change: Suryavarman II(Khmer) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'
Turn 94/500 (525 BC) [02-Oct-2011 11:23:42]
New York begins: Work Boat (4 turns)
Seattle begins: Granary (60 turns)
Washington begins: Settler (12 turns)
0% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 20 per turn, 166 in the bank
After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Washington
Werner Heisenberg (Great Scientist) born in Washington
New York grows to size 6
Philadelphia grows to size 4
Chicago grows to size 2
Turn 95/500 (500 BC) [02-Oct-2011 11:40:13]
Washington finishes: Academy
0% Research: 21 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 21 per turn, 186 in the bank
After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in New York
New York finishes: Work Boat
Boston finishes: Granary
Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Suryavarman II (Khmer) towards Ragnar (Vikings), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Suryavarman II (Khmer) towards Pacal II (Maya), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Suryavarman II (Khmer) towards Darius I (Persia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Ramesses II(Egypt) from 'Slavery' to 'Caste System'
Turn 96/500 (475 BC) [02-Oct-2011 11:43:02]
New York begins: Settler (8 turns)
Boston begins: Library (12 turns)
A Mine was built near Chicago
100% Research: 104 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -45 per turn, 207 in the bank
After End Turn:
A Hamlet was built near Washington
Turn 97/500 (450 BC) [02-Oct-2011 11:47:54]
A Cottage was built near Seattle
100% Research: 107 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -45 per turn, 162 in the bank
After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Boston
Boston grows to size 6
Philadelphia grows to size 5
Philadelphia finishes: Library
Atlanta finishes: Worker
Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Ragnar (Vikings) towards Ramesses II (Egypt), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Turn 98/500 (425 BC) [02-Oct-2011 11:49:51]
Philadelphia begins: Monument (6 turns)
Atlanta begins: Monument (30 turns)
A Mine was built near Philadelphia
A Mine was built near Boston
100% Research: 108 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -45 per turn, 117 in the bank
After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Philadelphia
Atlanta grows to size 3
Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Louis XIV(France) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'
Turn 99/500 (400 BC) [02-Oct-2011 11:56:10]
100% Research: 109 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -45 per turn, 72 in the bank
After End Turn:
Philadelphia grows to size 6
Chicago grows to size 3
Turn 100/500 (375 BC) [02-Oct-2011 11:58:28]
A Cottage was built near Philadelphia
10% Research: 30 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
90% Gold: 14 per turn, 27 in the bank
After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Currency
New York finishes: Settler
Boston grows to size 7
Atlanta grows to size 4
Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'
Turn 101/500 (350 BC) [02-Oct-2011 12:01:29]
Research begun: Code of Laws (13 Turns)
New York begins: Lighthouse (6 turns)
Staying together was for protection. It is possible that exploring AIs have accomplished some spawnbusting. I'm in favor of splitting them to explore in both directions. I defer to the player.
1 - Sounds like a majority for Currency (last call for desentors)
2 - Academy in Wash with GS. Should we hold GE for wonder or settle for hammers?
3 - Should we keep archers together if so north or west?
1. OK. Seems that way to me. One caveat, see below.
2. Academy is good. Recall that the GE will make significant amount of science as well as speeding up of building infra. Do we know where the furtue Ironworks city is likely to be? The hammers are doubled in capitol with Bur (oxford city will double the science), so probably capitol is most benefit right now.
3. I think the argument for keeping them together isn't altered until we see AI borders that fogbust... but maybe I'm too cautious. I also defer to player... it depends on how many AI units are around I guess.
If we are saving the GE for a wonder, then I think the Poly-PH-CoL path is preferable since it gets us closer to the wonders I see as useful (Parth/GLib). I still think we can build those fast enough and the game will go long enough that settling the GE is better, but just thought I'd opint out that Currency is not the most direct path to grab wonders. Not sure we should focus too much on wonders anyhow.
Nice test game, SH.
@Jovan: If you want to play the next set according to the plan SH wrote, let us know how you would answer the open questions. Some time in the next 24hrs. If you would do something else, let us know what and why. Either way, its gotta be in the next 24hrs or Steelhorse is going to be named the active (UP) player for this set.
- remember that naval passage to the west, barbs could come from that direction (galley from Philadelphia)
- are you guys sure about Currency? How long till CoL if we go this way?
- not sure what's best if we get a GE, but I suggest we use him for a wonder. We can't build everything even with Stone/Marble and there's a lot of shiny buildings out there that we could use.
Recall that the GE will make significant amount of science as well as speeding up of building infra. Do we know where the furtue Ironworks city is likely to be? The hammers are doubled in capitol with Bur (oxford city will double the science), so probably capitol is most benefit right now.
If we are saving the GE for a wonder, then I think the Poly-PH-CoL path is preferable since it gets us closer to the wonders I see as useful (Parth/GLib). I still think we can build those fast enough and the game will go long enough that settling the GE is better, but just thought I'd opint out that Currency is not the most direct path to grab wonders. Not sure we should focus too much on wonders anyhow.
Hammers are not doubled with Bure. There's also GPP from the wonder that's probably worth much more than a settled GE. (After the first GS, 200 scientist GPP = ~1500 beakers.) There's also the benefit of wonder deny, making the AI weaker. Yeah, I'm actually pretty sold on building sth if we get it.
FWIW, I compared Jovan's GOTM70 vs Our Leader's (kcd's) using the reply tool--nice illustration of the benefits of REXing. Jovan had 3 cities when kcd had 1, then 13 vs 4, then ~24 vs 4 when the game was over (for one of them) in 1060 AD. This is why I kept pushing for REX over infrastructure (even if I couldn't come up with an illustration of how one should go about it ). I'm glad SteelHorse's PPP calls for 2 more settlers--I wonder if we should push for more. I say "wonder" because I don't know how to do it properly, or even if it's appropriate now that we're past the early game. In any case, I hope somebody plays soon. And given that we have/will have both stone and marble and should be achieving tech superiority before long, giving us more time to build wonders, I lean toward settling a Great Eng if we get one. Still tempted by the Hanging Gardens if we could get the benefit for 10+ cities but don't want to burn a GE on it. Also still swamped by work but it should lighten up by the time my turnset rolls around.
Yamps - Looks to be about 7 turns or so to CoL after Currency. Trades for Alpha or cash could shorten.
On the archers, it may be best to keep together and head north. Thinking there is more potential for trades routes than west. Also to check out the barb city.
I too lean for settling the GE as I can't think of a good wonder to build short-term. Colossus is not in our current tech path, HG extra pop would be good for Sci Spec but we need Libs first and we have lot of tiles to improve, GLib is off path, Maoi maybe in Atl with enough water-tiles.
Steelhorse is UP,
And I hereby turn on the greenlight for him. Are there things we are uncertain about still? Yes. But if we wait for absolute certainty, we'll never get going again. Active player is the one who has to decide when two sets of advice conflict.
As for GE settling vs waiting for a wondertech... we're about evenly split, so if it happens Steelhorse can decide, or can pause and we can fight it out some more. Lets hope for a GS anyhow.
the plan he will follow is here. Last minute advices are probably welcome, but advice can be followed or ignored at active player's discretion.
BTW: Yamps is on-deck.
1 - Sounds like a majority for Currency (last call for desentors)
2 - Academy in Wash with GS. Should we hold GE for wonder or settle for hammers?
3 - Should we keep archers together if so north or west?
Tech: Currency (with settled GS T95 it completes T101 see attached save and log).
Here are thoughts on Cities
Chi: WB [growth onto lake]
Phil: Lib [growth onto FP], Mon
Wash: Bar (1T) -> Settler for Marble [growth onto cottage] (need to check on hammer loss)
NY: WB (timed to for Seatle border pop), Settler for Horse City
Bos: Gran, Lib [growth onto HFP]
Seat: Mon, Gran
Atl: Wrk, Mon
Arch1 - continue North?
Arch2 - heal scout west?
W1 - Chop->Mine NE of Atl, Cot 1SW of Phili
W2 - Cot 1N of Seat, Chop 2N of Seat
W3 - Chop 2N of NY, Cot
W4 - mine->road silver, move 3S
W5 - Chop 1SW of Bos->Mine->Road
W6 (from Atl) - Cot 1SW of Phili
Stop after Currency or something interesting (ie, Trades available)
Oh - And cancel deals with East.
Other Notes:
Switch to 100% Res on T96
T98 NY tile swap to 1F2H
T98 Bos tile swap to mine
T100 Res 10% to finish Currency
Got it. Will play in the next 48 hours, if GE will pause for final thought. Anyone thinking wonder please propose one for discussion. I don't think keeping a GE in reserve w/o a plan is optimal. I won't play before tonight est. So still time for comments.
Will look at phili again tonight on Mon v. galley. Don't have map in front of me at the moment.
Parthenon is still fairly cheap (400 hammers) and we would get the marble bonus, so kind of a waste for an Engineer. We're also Philosophical so not much more of a boost. Philly's library will fulfill our culture needs so, yeah, I'd drop the monument idea--we have plenty of happiness.
I've belatedly updated the Ref/Report posts; Chris, which file is the current test game?
I'd like to put in a plea for Boston to grow 1 more turn to pop5, switch to a settler for a few turns and then whip, directing overflow to the granary for fast recovery. This will give us another settler quickly, minimize the time spent stagnating, and get us the granary faster (largely making up for whipping away 1 or 2 citizens). I would then skip the library until much later, if ever. We can push science in this city when needed by running specialists under Caste System but in general Boston should focus on production, production, production: workboats for the spoke cities, maybe a lighthouse for the clams and lake, units to explore (how about a scout for India), a galley for NW exploration or ferrying troops or a scout, and of course more workers and settlers. There are 4 hills here to mine, plus a fair number of hammers from other tiles that will always be worked. If the Hanging Gardens don't fall to the AI this would probably be the place to build 'em--lots of base hammers, plenty of food for whipping an aqueduct, and probably a forest or two will be left for stone-bonus chops.
Yup - Brain cramp on the Mon since lib in Phili covers border pop needs. Galley after Lib.
I've tested am good with Xcals suggestion on Boston as production center. Also should think about Atlanta with Maoi as another production center if we get the GE. 4 Mine-able hills + 8 workable water tiles with a hammer each.
My only question is whether we want 2 more settlers or a third at this point. In any event, I am going to play to see whether we get the GE or GS and post tonight to get us restarted.
And can play the rest tomorrow if there is agreement on # settlers and GE if one comes our way.
T95
GE - oh my more discussion.
Trades to North Available - more discussion.
Cancelled Ragnar deal
Spoiler:
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 93/500 (550 BC) [04-Oct-2011 22:02:21]
Research begun: Currency (33 Turns)
0% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 15 per turn, 151 in the bank
After End Turn:
Washington grows to size 8
New York finishes: Library
Boston grows to size 5
Buddhism has spread: Philadelphia
Seattle finishes: Monument
Turn 94/500 (525 BC) [04-Oct-2011 22:05:22]
New York begins: Work Boat (4 turns)
Seattle begins: Granary (60 turns)
Boston begins: Settler (7 turns)
Washington begins: Settler (12 turns)
0% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 16 per turn, 166 in the bank
After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Washington
Heron (Great Engineer) born in Washington
New York grows to size 6
New York finishes: Work Boat
Philadelphia grows to size 4
Chicago grows to size 2
Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the South (Mali) towards Good Witch of the West (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the South (Zululand) towards Good Witch of the West (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the West (Aztec) towards Good Witch of the South (Mali), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Good Witch of the West (India) towards Wicked Witch of the South (Zululand), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Good Witch of the East(India) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'
Turn 95/500 (500 BC) [04-Oct-2011 22:14:57]
New York begins: Settler (7 turns)
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). I'm glad SteelHorse's PPP calls for 2 more settlers--I wonder if we should push for more. I say "wonder" because I don't know how to do it properly, or even if it's appropriate now that we're past the early game. In any case, I hope somebody plays soon. 
And given that we have/will have both stone and marble and should be achieving tech superiority before long, giving us more time to build wonders, I lean toward settling a Great Eng if we get one. Still tempted by the Hanging Gardens if we could get the benefit for 10+ cities but don't want to burn a GE on it. Also still swamped by work but it should lighten up by the time my turnset rolls around.
