SGOTM 14 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Geez that map is huge! Scouting all the "tentacles" of this "octopus" normally would take ages, interested to see what some map trades can do...

Once GLibrary completes, we could get a map from the West Witches, and some Gold, for Lit. That would, perhaps, open up most of the fog?

As our happy cap is huge, there's no need to really control pop growth that much. There seems to be only few not-that-good tiles worked (like grassland farms and coastal tiles) so I don't see "immediate" need to switch to caste. On the other hand, I don't see much point in massive whipping either.

Yes, we can let cities grow, but we do need to get some specialists running before we start falling behind more in tech. West and North Witches are moving along.

We have a lot of tiles to improve and improvements to build to take advantage a lot more population. Seems they would be of more benefit as specialists than working unimproved tiles?

Next GP is coming in 5 turns from Not Kansas, probabilities are around 60% for GSci and 40% for GE. GE would be nice to bulb Machinery but don't know what to do with GSci. one option would be to use it for GA to avoid 2 turns of anarchy (1 for switching to caste + pacifism, 1 for adopting taoism) and to raise more GPs during that period. Can we wait 5 more turns to see what we get before caste & stuff?

We can enhance our chances of a Great Engineer by firing one Scientist, delays GP for 2 turns. Manage the citizens so that the Great Library completes the same turn as the GP is due. Working more food will get the city growing a bit faster.

Also not a huge fan of GA right now. Rather use the GS for Education.

If we really need to tech up to paras, is it any use to go warring with cats + axes/swords/maces to far-away lands when we can still expand peacefully? Distances are huge and those galleons will definitely speed up things. And so will horses... I'd wait for cuirassiers instead and concentrate on teching up the tree atm with repre.

This is a very good point. No need to rush to war until we've finished the REX available to us.

Isn't REX nearly complete? We have the Settlers to found our last 2 cities and the Missionaries to convert them. Not sure I see where else we would want to settle? Seems it might be better to take some developed cities from Asoka? In three turns, Marble City will expand culturally and give us a bridge over there.

Early on we had discussed crippling team's research ability by taking down one of each partner. Seems like an excellent opportunity to give Asoka a bit of trouble and, perhaps, get Compass for peace?

Copper city should be settled asap and those troops that handled Ragnar's initial stack could go and secure the land further in the middle. Another settler could go either far to the middle area or south of Not Kansas for two seafoods and a hill. Regarding copper city, on which tile have you guys thought to settle? Of course, all 4 resources should be on bfc but should we settle to form a canal with or without forts?

I vote for 1 SW of copper. Settling the spot to form a canal without fort brings in 3 crap tiles.

Like 1E of Horses to form the canal. The fort tile is a wasted tile and settling SW of copper wastes a forest. Also, forming a canal means no one can by-pass the city without taking it.

Last city 2 south of Clams, gives us Furs.
may be hard to defend though?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Finally had a look at the save . . .

Some city management suggestions:

Finish GLib in 5 turns by moving citizen from farm to mine.

Take the Washington citizen off the grass-hill mine and put him/her on the farm NK was using. This will greatly speed growth in the city while still allowing axe to be built in one turn. (The axe can be loaded onto the galley with the healthy cat and sailed SW -- probably to the forest west of the horses -- while the archer makes his way to the copper hill, with a trailing settler.)

Once the Statues are completed in NY, probably don't want to work the grass-hill mine for awhile to maximize city growth while building a galley.

Once library is complete in Boston, like trireme next.

Of course put the citizen back on the sheep in Phily. Would like to take Harrapan soon, so thinking, after forge, a galley before lighthouse.

Atlanta is looking good. Do we want to build the NE there? If so, library next.

Once Chicago reaches size 3 and the food bar is half full, then growth should be made to stagnate until granary is completed.

In Seattle, would suggest taking the citizen off the forested hill and putting on lake to speed growth.

Geez that map is huge! Scouting all the "tentacles" of this "octopus" normally would take ages, interested to see what some map trades can do... Yes, but don't see a good one right now.

As our happy cap is huge, there's no need to really control pop growth that much. There seems to be only few not-that-good tiles worked (like grassland farms and coastal tiles) so I don't see "immediate" need to switch to caste. On the other hand, I don't see much point in massive whipping either. Concur. We need to grow cities. Possibly won't need Caste and Pacifism before NE is built.

Next GP is coming in 5 turns from Not Kansas, probabilities are around 60% for GSci and 40% for GE. GE would be nice to bulb Machinery (We'd have to trade for Compass to do that, wouldn't we?) but don't know what to do with GSci. one option would be to use it for GA to avoid 2 turns of anarchy (1 for switching to caste + pacifism, 1 for adopting taoism) and to raise more GPs during that period. Not sure what you are saying here. During a GA, running specialists is usually not optimal as they don't benefit from GA. Can we wait 5 more turns to see what we get before caste & stuff? Leaning that way.

If we really need to tech up to paras, is it any use to go warring with cats + axes/swords/maces to far-away lands when we can still expand peacefully? Distances are huge and those galleons will definitely speed up things. And so will horses... I'd wait for cuirassiers instead and concentrate on teching up the tree atm with repre. Not sure we want to wait that long, but certainly think we should wait until mountain mystery is resolved, though I see no indication of a breach in the perimeter.

Copper city should be settled asap and those troops that handled Ragnar's initial stack could go and secure the land further in the middle. If we can get peace with Ragnar (nice to get Compass in return, but unlikely), then we can use most of those units to go after Harrapan.

Another settler could go either far to the middle area or south of Not Kansas for two seafoods and a hill. Probably should also consider either a canal city SE of York or scout out the potential for a production city well SSE of Washington (1S of the iron).

Regarding copper city, on which tile have you guys thought to settle?

Agreement on 1E of horses,

 

[-Asterix-]

I vote for 1 SW of copper. Settling the spot to form a canal without fort brings in 3 crap tiles.

Like 1E of Horses to form the canal. The fort tile is a wasted tile and settling SW of copper wastes a forest. Also, forming a canal means no one can by-pass the city without taking it.

I like 1E of horses more too. 3 crap tiles aren't important as there really are no good tiles besides the 5 resources. Forests can be chopped but rest is crap so after those 5 tiles we should use specialists or coast. If we settle 1E of horses AIs can still go around it, though.

We either need Caste to get more specialists to speed up out teching, or we need to grow cities fast to use the happies available to us - there is something to be said for both strategies. Either way we need Caste sooner or later. IF we're going to grow cities more we probably need more tiles developed - other wise we'll be running mediocre tiles and some of those cities won't grow much past a certain food limit anyway.

We definitely need caste for SE but the question is do we need it right now. Once I can take another look at the save, I can check how many specialists we could hire more atm without losing power in growth too much. And yes, we need more tiles developed but that's why we have workers around.

Either way now heavy whipping should be a thing of the past. I think we've done that to its limit now.

Whipping should be avoided from now on to grow cities but can't agree with you about already whipping to limit.

I lean towards caste and more specialists sooner as a gut felling because I don't like the way our tech rate is floating along at the moment - I'd like to see it given a good kick in the backside with some more specialists. However I know that good math can show my gut feelings to be short sighted. We do have a couple of cities that are growing very fast indeed and if growing them to huge size is going to be better, so be it.

It may be better to first grow those cities a bit and then go all-in with specialists. It really depends on how many ok tiles there are to grow the cities.

Edit: Just thinking about why not adopting caste and pacifism and the cost is really only slavery and OR. Maybe this is a reason for Caste+Pacifism sooner rather than later? (plus the change to Tao). The only remaining consideration is the turns of anarchy as Asterix mentions...

Yes, the cost from civic changes (and religion) is those 2 turns of anarchy. Whip isn't that good when we want to grow and OR is useless as we don't have state religion and already have enough missionaries.

Once GLibrary completes, we could get a map from the West Witches, and some Gold, for Lit. That would, perhaps, open up most of the fog?

Agree.

We have a lot of tiles to improve and improvements to build to take advantage a lot more population. Seems they would be of more benefit as specialists than working unimproved tiles?

There are only few unimproved tiles worked and those don't seem to be that bad (PH forest, coast, etc.). But again, I can check later how many more scientists we would get with caste right now.

We can enhance our chances of a Great Engineer by firing one Scientist, delays GP for 2 turns. Manage the citizens so that the Great Library completes the same turn as the GP is due. Working more food will get the city growing a bit faster.

Don't like this. Any day, I'd rather take a GP two turns earlier than improve chances for the desired GP by few percents. It really doesn't matter whether the percentages are 60-40 or 50-50, it's still totally up to luck and can't be counted on.

Isn't REX nearly complete? We have the Settlers to found our last 2 cities and the Missionaries to convert them. Not sure I see where else we would want to settle? Seems it might be better to take some developed cities from Asoka? In three turns, Marble City will expand culturally and give us a bridge over there.

Early on we had discussed crippling team's research ability by taking down one of each partner. Seems like an excellent opportunity to give Asoka a bit of trouble and, perhaps, get Compass for peace?

Well, there's still room for ok cities in the middle area and AIs seem to be still in their own arms. With some more scouting down south we should find more free city spots. Of course we may not want to go there too quickly but concentrate on tech instead. Oh, and should we plan Forgotten Palace already somewhere in the middle area?

About Asoka, I don't see getting Compass in peace as a very probable outcome. For that we'd need to get bigger army to his lands and that would require some fast whipping. That culture bridge down south will be useful later but for now I'd just like to get quick peace.

Last city 2 south of Clams, gives us Furs.
may be hard to defend though?

2S of clams looks ok.

 

[-Asterix-]

Finally had a look at the save . . .

Some city management suggestions:

Finish GLib in 5 turns by moving citizen from farm to mine.

Take the Washington citizen off the grass-hill mine and put him/her on the farm NK was using. This will greatly speed growth in the city while still allowing axe to be built in one turn. (The axe can be loaded onto the galley with the healthy cat and sailed SW -- probably to the forest west of the horses -- while the archer makes his way to the copper hill, with a trailing settler.)

Once the Statues are completed in NY, probably don't want to work the grass-hill mine for awhile to maximize city growth while building a galley.

Once library is complete in Boston, like trireme next.

Of course put the citizen back on the sheep in Phily. Would like to take Harrapan soon, so thinking, after forge, a galley before lighthouse.

Atlanta is looking good. Do we want to build the NE there? If so, library next.

Once Chicago reaches size 3 and the food bar is half full, then growth should be made to stagnate until granary is completed.

In Seattle, would suggest taking the citizen off the forested hill and putting on lake to speed growth.

Sounds good, I'll look closer into these once I get to look the save again.

Geez that map is huge! Scouting all the "tentacles" of this "octopus" normally would take ages, interested to see what some map trades can do... Yes, but don't see a good one right now. Yes, it'll probably have to wait until we get Paper too...

As our happy cap is huge, there's no need to really control pop growth that much. There seems to be only few not-that-good tiles worked (like grassland farms and coastal tiles) so I don't see "immediate" need to switch to caste. On the other hand, I don't see much point in massive whipping either. Concur. We need to grow cities. Possibly won't need Caste and Pacifism before NE is built.

Next GP is coming in 5 turns from Not Kansas, probabilities are around 60% for GSci and 40% for GE. GE would be nice to bulb Machinery (We'd have to trade for Compass to do that, wouldn't we?) Nope, Machinery is on the top of bulb list for GEs so if we have one, we can bulb it. but don't know what to do with GSci. one option would be to use it for GA to avoid 2 turns of anarchy (1 for switching to caste + pacifism, 1 for adopting taoism) and to raise more GPs during that period. Not sure what you are saying here. During a GA, running specialists is usually not optimal as they don't benefit from GA. During a GA you get increase in GP points generated so also specialists benefit from it. More about this below... Can we wait 5 more turns to see what we get before caste & stuff? Leaning that way.

If we really need to tech up to paras, is it any use to go warring with cats + axes/swords/maces to far-away lands when we can still expand peacefully? Distances are huge and those galleons will definitely speed up things. And so will horses... I'd wait for cuirassiers instead and concentrate on teching up the tree atm with repre. Not sure we want to wait that long, but certainly think we should wait until mountain mystery is resolved, though I see no indication of a breach in the perimeter. That mountain fort sure looks solid but it'll still take lots of time to get our wb there. I guess more than 10 turns...

Copper city should be settled asap and those troops that handled Ragnar's initial stack could go and secure the land further in the middle. If we can get peace with Ragnar (nice to get Compass in return, but unlikely), then we can use most of those units to go after Harrapan. Agree.

Another settler could go either far to the middle area or south of Not Kansas for two seafoods and a hill. Probably should also consider either a canal city SE of York or scout out the potential for a production city well SSE of Washington (1S of the iron). Yes, will look into that too.

Regarding copper city, on which tile have you guys thought to settle?
Agreement on 1E of horses,

More rambling about the GA-thingy (my opinions by gut, no math included):

About spending a GA: Of course it won't be ideal use of a GA as we don't have dozens of cities but unless we're going to space it's usually best to use GAs rather early once a nice empire has been set up. It's really no use anymore to go for GA once you've built your army and went on a killing spree with a godly army of something.

Then why now? To avoid 2 turns of anarchy aka 2 turns of not doing anything.

Saving a possible GSci for Edu: We sure want to use a bulb for Edu but we can get another GSci for that use before actually getting to a position to bulb Edu. Or maybe even two or three. This could be achieved by switching to caste + pacifism on the first turn of the GA and then using lots of scientist specialists (or merchants for GM) in our ~10 pop cities to gain GP points in multiple cities. This would most probably net us 2-3 GPs (mostly GSci) during the GA or soon after it. After that the GP production could be handled by NE city.

Bulbs for GSci: Currently a GSci would bulb Paper which is usually too cheap to bulb. After that there comes Edu on which we want one bulb. Second bulb would be roughly the same as bulbing Paper. After Edu it depends on whether we have Machinery or not. Without Machinery bulbs would go to Compass -> Optics. Optics would be ok but Compass is again rather cheap to bulb. After Optics there would probably be Liberalism. If we have Machinery, we will bulb Printing Press after Edu and then go to that Compass-route.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Bulbs for GSci: Currently a GSci would bulb Paper which is usually too cheap (Concur) to bulb. After that there comes Edu on which we want one bulb. Second bulb would be roughly the same as bulbing Paper. After Edu it depends on whether we have Machinery or not. Without Machinery bulbs would go to Compass -> Optics. Optics would be ok but Compass is again rather cheap to bulb. Probably be able to trade for it; maybe Paper too. After Optics there would probably be Liberalism. If we have Machinery, we will bulb Printing Press after Edu and then go to that Compass-route."

What's your thinking regarding NE and hopefully soon HE?

GA with our GS might be worth it, as you argue, but suggest, if confronted with that option, you pause for discussion.

"During a GA you get increase in GP points generated so also specialists benefit from it." Is this true in Vanilla? (If so, I've been oblivious.)

 

[leif erikson]

Bulbs for GSci: Currently a GSci would bulb Paper which is usually too cheap to bulb. After that there comes Edu on which we want one bulb. Second bulb would be roughly the same as bulbing Paper. After Edu it depends on whether we have Machinery or not. Without Machinery bulbs would go to Compass -> Optics. Optics would be ok but Compass is again rather cheap to bulb. After Optics there would probably be Liberalism. If we have Machinery, we will bulb Printing Press after Edu and then go to that Compass-route.

Almost.

From Great People Tech Preferences:
Great Scientist:
Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Aesthetics (BTS)
Sailing
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Advanced Flight (BTS)
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism

We cannot bulb Optics without having Machinery.
Once we have Paper, then priorities are: Education, without Machinery, Compass, with Machinery, Printing Press, Compass, then Optics (I think) and then Astronomy.
It gets a bit difficult to follow...
Liberalism is way down the list, but could be accessible if it is the only one available to research...

Golden Age may work out fine, as you say.

Like NE in Atlanta (northenr GP Farm).
Like HE in Washington (Oracle City).

 

[Mad Professor]

More rambling about the GA-thingy (my opinions by gut, no math included):

About spending a GA: Of course it won't be ideal use of a GA as we don't have dozens of cities but unless we're going to space it's usually best to use GAs rather early once a nice empire has been set up. It's really no use anymore to go for GA once you've built your army and went on a killing spree with a godly army of something.

Then why now? To avoid 2 turns of anarchy aka 2 turns of not doing anything.

There's some rationalisation if we want to grow cities more - in that case we would be using more tiles and less specialists while the cities grow and so the GA would have a greater impact because more tiles are being used? Not sure the math would add to much in the end though. The math would have to include beakers not lost in civic change, and extra beakers and hammers gained from the tiles used, compared with the beakers gained from a bulb such as we have available at this time. Sorry I don't have time to sit down and add it all up!

 

[Htadus]

I did not want to quote many threads, so here are my choices to what has been discussed.

1. I too vote for the canal/bridge city. Hawk, we, should not need the 4 crappy tiles and as already been mentioned, can use specialists to better effect with the food surplus.
2. The golden age is a good idea but we are not yet ready to get the most out of it. Either for production/commerce or for GPP. And CP, the GPP boost is only good for BTS. If we did not have to go through the Anarchy, I would agree with all of you who prefer the civic switch but we should not waste any turns if we really do not have to.
3. lief, we are really not behind the techs compaired to the other AI, it is only an illusion. Once we start bulbing, we will be way ahead. Also once we go into full SE, we are going to be ahead.
4. The AI teams may get reserach boost but they do not get a production boost. As long as we focus on a single member and go into defensive with the other, we can get ahead of them.
5. I think We should start with Cataphant war as soon as we are out of our GA. So this next stage is cruiciel to the rest of the game. Since I am following -Asterix-, I hope to fully be involved with his set in regards to conceptual decision making.
6. Regarding HE and NE: If we stay in Buro, then the HE should not go for the capital. If we are going for Vassalage, then Capital may be the best. May be because it is not hammer heavy. Capital is definately better than any other city for the NE. If I have to prove it I will but you should see it. Glib+2 free sci+Mids+NE+ excessive food=Many GPP.
7. We really should send a team for pillaging.
8. As for nex cities other than copper, The two seafood SSW of NK is a sure yes and A piece of crap city next to the great wall and just run a artist for once or two border pops to see what is happening in there would be nice. Sooner we know rthe better. We can gift it later. Also there is the potential to beam a few units of ours in to an area in the wall via border clossing may be a way to kill the Oz.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"As for nex cities other than copper, The two seafood SSW of NK is a sure yes and A piece of crap city next to the great wall and just run a artist for once or two border pops to see what is happening in there would be nice. Really clever idea! Might be best use of one of our extant settlers.Sooner we know the better. We can gift it later. Also there is the potential to beam a few units of ours in to an area in the wall via border clossing may be a way to kill the Oz." Do not see how this could work. Please explain.

 

[Htadus]

"As for nex cities other than copper, The two seafood SSW of NK is a sure yes and A piece of crap city next to the great wall and just run a artist for once or two border pops to see what is happening in there would be nice. Really clever idea! Might be best use of one of our extant settlers.Sooner we know the better. We can gift it later. Also there is the potential to beam a few units of ours in to an area in the wall via border clossing may be a way to kill the Oz." Do not see how this could work. Please explain.

Remember in civ3 you could jump to another continent via beaming?

Well, lets say we get a city next to the wall and get the culture expansion. There has to be couple of non mountain tiles for us to make a landing there even for Para's, so if we can get one such tile under our culture, then we can try the beam method. So what we need to do is to place bunch of our units in an AI area nearest to that landable tile in the wall. Then we close borders with taht AI....or Dow if that was part of our plan and our units will get beamed. Now it is no guarentee, but since that tile is part of our culture, we may get our units sent there.

Also if we managed to the OZ unit trapped in our culture, then all we have to do is to capture the Great Wall City. That unit will get moved out one way or the other since it has to be a barb unit.

 

[-Asterix-]

Well, lets say we get a city next to the wall and get the culture expansion. There has to be couple of non mountain tiles for us to make a landing there even for Para's, so if we can get one such tile under our culture, then we can try the beam method. So what we need to do is to place bunch of our units in an AI area nearest to that landable tile in the wall. Then we close borders with taht AI....or Dow if that was part of our plan and our units will get beamed. Now it is no guarentee, but since that tile is part of our culture, we may get our units sent there. This sounds like a longshot...

Also if we managed to the OZ unit trapped in our culture, then all we have to do is to capture the Great Wall City. That unit will get moved out one way or the other since it has to be a barb unit. ...but I really like this idea! Sounds like the way to go for me.

As said, it would be probably best to go and use that second settler (after copper city) for a "crap" city next to the mountain wall and see what it looks like behind that wall.

I'll get back to other issues a bit later...

 

[-Asterix-]

Some city management suggestions:

Finish GLib in 5 turns by moving citizen from farm to mine. Ok.

Take the Washington citizen off the grass-hill mine and put him/her on the farm NK was using. This will greatly speed growth in the city while still allowing axe to be built in one turn. (The axe can be loaded onto the galley with the healthy cat and sailed SW -- probably to the forest west of the horses -- while the archer makes his way to the copper hill, with a trailing settler.) Good. This is the kind of micro I rarely have time to do in my own games.

Once the Statues are completed in NY, probably don't want to work the grass-hill mine for awhile to maximize city growth while building a galley. Yup. Just grow the city to work more 2F1H2C-tiles.

Once library is complete in Boston, like trireme next. Yes, need triremes to keep possible galleys from Rags & Asoka away.

Of course put the citizen back on the sheep in Phily. Would like to take Harrapan soon, so thinking, after forge, a galley before lighthouse. Agree.

Atlanta is looking good. Do we want to build the NE there? If so, library next. I'd prefer NE in Not Kansas as Htadus suggests, more about that below. Maybe still build library for bonuses and to be able to hire scientists also outside caste.

Once Chicago reaches size 3 and the food bar is half full, then growth should be made to stagnate until granary is completed. Nice. Again, this kind of micro I rarely do. Is it preferred to have exactly half-full food bar when granary is built? What if there's e.g. 2F less or 2F more?

In Seattle, would suggest taking the citizen off the forested hill and putting on lake to speed growth. Yes.

"Bulbs for GSci: Currently a GSci would bulb Paper which is usually too cheap (Concur) to bulb. After that there comes Edu on which we want one bulb. Second bulb would be roughly the same as bulbing Paper. After Edu it depends on whether we have Machinery or not. Without Machinery bulbs would go to Compass -> Optics Liberalism. Optics would be ok but Compass is again rather cheap to bulb. Probably be able to trade for it; maybe Paper too. Hopefully yes. After Optics there would probably be Liberalism. If we have Machinery, we will bulb Printing Press after Edu and then go to that Compass-route."

What's your thinking regarding NE and hopefully soon HE? NE to Not Kansas, HE to Washington.

GA with our GS might be worth it, as you argue, but suggest, if confronted with that option, you pause for discussion. Definitely will pause.

Almost.

We cannot bulb Optics without having Machinery. Doh, forgot that Optics need Machinery...
Once we have Paper, then priorities are: Education, without Machinery, Compass, with Machinery, Printing Press, Compass, then Optics (I think) and then Astronomy.
It gets a bit difficult to follow...
Liberalism is way down the list, but could be accessible if it is the only one available to research... If we skip Machinery and hopefully trade Paper and Compass, we bulb Edu -> Lib.

Like NE in Atlanta (northenr GP Farm). I'd prefer NE in Not Kansas as suggested by Htadus. If we don't need paras, GLib will be active for a long time and it's great in a NE city. Mids don't hurt and there's nice bunch of extra food for specialists. Moreover, there's enough hammers to build NE fast.
Like HE in Washington (Oracle City). Me too. At first I thought about Philly but location-wise Washington is almost the same and there's more land for possible workshops later (Philly has too much water). Not Kansas is better as a GP farm.

If I'd adopt caste now, I'd only add 1-2 scientists to Philly and Atlanta. That said, I don't see it as a problem to wait with the switch for at least those 5 turns to get that next GP. Also, those would be the two cities I'd fill up with scientists or other specs during a GA to get more GPs.

 

[leif erikson]

If we skip Machinery and hopefully trade Paper and Compass, we bulb Edu -> Lib.

The only problem with this is what will there be of value to take as our free tech?
Perhaps Astro...

Unless we can do some serious trading to target a tech like Physics or Replaceable Parts or Nationalism heading for Military Tradition? Not sure the AI will cooperate if our research takes off as Htadus suggests. Of course, I always seem to have trouble seeing these possibilities...

 

[-Asterix-]

Regarding HE and NE: If we stay in Buro, then the HE should not go for the capital. If we are going for Vassalage, then Capital may be the best. May be because it is not hammer heavy. I think we'll need Vassalage more than Bure. Not Kansas is not that commerce-rich and I think that 2 promos straight from the oven is better than the hammer bonus. Also, I don't see the point in putting HE to a not-that-hammer-heavy city as the bonus from HE increases with base hammers. Moreover, want to build it in a coastal city so Not Kansas is not an option for HE. Capital is definately better than any other city for the NE. If I have to prove it I will but you should see it. Glib+2 free sci+Mids+NE+ excessive food=Many GPP. Agree here.

Exploring wb will be at the mountain fort in 7-8 turns unless map maker has been evil and cut off the water route up north.

Probably should also consider either a canal city SE of York Definitely worth considering. I see two possible spots: between iron and cow or 1N of fish (probably too close to York and already within white borders). or scout out the potential for a production city well SSE of Washington (1S of the iron). Not sure what spot you mean with this.

If that scenario to kill Wizard of Oz via conquering GW works as Htadus suggested, we won't need paras. This really turns things upside down. In that case, instead of sending a pillaging team we could go warring with Asoka right now (cats+phants+soon maces) but we'd need an army for that, aka whip some more and forget about getting big cities right now. It would be probably best to get that culture bridge down south and go with galleys from there rather than run through the middle area. Anyway, we'll definitely need better troops later so teching up to Astro & cuirasiers should be kept in mind anyway.

BTW, one of the two Indias has that GW. Is there any way to figure out which one?

 

[-Asterix-]

The only problem with this is what will there be of value to take as our free tech?
Perhaps Astro...

Unless we can do some serious trading to target a tech like Physics or Replaceable Parts or Nationalism heading for Military Tradition? Not sure the AI will cooperate if our research takes off as Htadus suggests. Of course, I always seem to have trouble seeing these possibilities...

There would be no hurry to pick the free tech. Idea is to just get one bulb into Lib (it wouldn't bulb it completely) and then open up Machinery and such as we wouldn't need to worry about bulb orders anymore. Then we could just tech Lib normally in 1-2 turns once AI starts to get close getting it. Possible picks would probably be either MT for cuirassiers or Chemistry/Steel for cannons if we want those babies. Or something to get to Rifling & cavs... There's always value in getting a free tech and denying such a possibility from AIs.

 

[leif erikson]

It would be probably best to get that culture bridge down south and go with galleys from there rather than run through the middle area.

I believe that bridge will open in three turns with the cultural expansion of Marble City.

BTW, one of the two Indias has that GW. Is there any way to figure out which one?

Looking at the list of wonders built, The Great Wall is listed with Gandhi's color as the India that built it. Also, we do not see any evidence of the Great Wall in what little of Asoka's territory we can see, not that that is definitive.

There would be no hurry to pick the free tech. Idea is to just get one bulb into Lib (it wouldn't bulb it completely) and then open up Machinery and such as we wouldn't need to worry about bulb orders anymore. Then we could just tech Lib normally in 1-2 turns once AI starts to get close getting it. Possible picks would probably be either MT for cuirassiers or Chemistry/Steel for cannons if we want those babies. Or something to get to Rifling & cavs... There's always value in getting a free tech and denying such a possibility from AIs.

OK, sounds like a plan.

 

[Cactus Pete]

If that scenario to kill Wizard of Oz via conquering GW works as Htadus suggested, we won't need paras.

Has anyone atually done this kind of thing? If no, what about testing it? BTW, do we know that there is a unit and not a city within the mountains?

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think we'll need Vassalage more than Bure. Concur. Capital is definately better than any other city for the NE. Okay.

"Not sure what spot you mean with this." Look on the map. There is a possible city site well SSE of Washington (1S of a visible iron tile) on the Indian spoke.

 

[-Asterix-]

I believe that bridge will open in three turns with the cultural expansion of Marble City. Great.

Looking at the list of wonders built, The Great Wall is listed with Gandhi's color as the India that built it. Also, we do not see any evidence of the Great Wall in what little of Asoka's territory we can see, not that that is definitive. Good enough for me.

Has anyone atually done this kind of thing? If no, what about testing it? BTW, do we know that there is a unit and not a city within the mountains? Testing should be done on this, I don't think anybody has actually encountered similar situation before. If it's a city, then this approach won't work. We can find out whether it's city or not by settling next to the mountain wall and expanding culture as I guess we should see barb cultural borders at that point. BTW, can we conquer barb cities with culture?

"Not sure what spot you mean with this." Look on the map. There is a possible city site well SSE of Washington (1S of a visible iron tile) on the Indian spoke. Found it now, thanks. Though, I'm not sure if it's any use to settle there before things are ok with Asoka & Rags as it would be still rather hard to supply that spot.

Some quick math regarding the possible GA:

- Our next GP comes at 400 GPP so after that it's 500 -> 600 -> 700.
- With Pacifism & GA we get a multiplier of 3.5 to GPP (+1 for philo trait, +1 for Pacifism, +0.5 for GA).
- If we hire 6 specs to two cities (Philly & Atlanta) on the first turn of GA, it generates 6 x 3 x 3.5 x 8 = 504 GPP during a 8-turn GA. This can be tinkered a bit (basically 1 turn to control which city pops the GP) by using more specs for some turns and possibly starving the city a bit.
- During that time we just need to watch that Not Kansas doesn't pop a GP.
- Then the one city that didn't pop the GP continues for 2 turns with the same amount of specs generating 6 x 3 x 3 = 54 GPP/turn (without GA) and generates the second GP.
- Again, Not Kansas gets lots of GPPs but lets that other city to actually generate that next GP.
- Not Kansas generates the next GP in probably 2 turns.

This is just a rough estimate but gives some directions. With that we could get 3 more GPs in 10-12 turns after the next one pops from Not Kansas. This should be easiest to do before NE is online as it unbalances things a bit. Also, it's easiest to do before the costs of GPs skyrocket up to 1000+ GPP. Haven't done the math but I think Atlanta & Philly would be up to the task after gaining some more pop, shouldn't take too many turns.

 

[The-Hawk]

RE: NE. Why not Phila? If Wash gives up the wheat and Phila builds a LH, Phila can run 8 scientists for 24 raw GPP. This is better than NK. Also, it is pure GS (other than the NE). No risk of popping a GE. I am still assuming we are going to need to research to paras in which case the bulb power of GS's seems more important.

Wash does not need the wheat... it can borrow it a while to build out pop, but then can run a couple of grass farms to support all of its productive (hammer) tiles.

Isn't REX nearly complete?

I don't think so. I see 6 sites I would consider settling asap. A couple of these will not hang around long. My sites:

• copper city (agree with the consensus on building this as a canal city)
• fur city - 2 south of clams in the hub (maybe Forbidden Palace here)
• seafood city SE of Washington - not much production here, but we are running an SE and this site provides 5 GS's.
• CP's iron site on Asoka's spoke - this site won't be around for long
• CP's canal city SW of York- this site won't be around for long either
• Htadus's crap city to open up a view of Oz. Also as a jump off point for our paras .