Thanks for the comments (and confusing me even more , guys! As everybody can see, there are plenty of hard decisions at hand as we're getting mixed opinions here.
Peace:
- "We do not need OB." Yes.
- "We don't need relations with Rags." Yes.
- "Getting exp for some units." Few exp points don't really matter that much so I'd consider this only as a very minor bonus. And every time we're "training" our units there's also that small possibility of losing them.
- "War is best way to explore." I'd rather have OB and send a couple of whatever units to do that. Rather try map trading once Great Library is completed.
- "Getting more for peace if delayed." I don't see this very profitable. I believe that AI would only give us more if we either take out bunch of their units or bring the war to their lands (don't think pillaging party would be enough here), and still I don't see them giving techs unless we take a city or two. Thinking CP said it best, "We're not going to have a long-term relationship with Rags, so having him permanently furious is not a concern. It could happen that there is an opportunity to increase the experience of a unit or two, if we stay at war, and we may get more for peace if we delay. Understand that I'm not arguing it's important to maintain war in the face of negative consequences. BTW, at some point we may prefer a cease fire to peace, so we can soon attack India."
- "Pillaging party." Built in where? I think we have enough in our hands trying to secure the copper site (+ possibly another site in the middle area) so we just don't have troops for it atm. Don't know where we will get the assets to do this in the near future.
IMO, we're just not ready to fight a war yet. Settling the copper city + some cities to the middle area would be a lot easier in peace. Also, atm I'd like to see AIs not in war(-prep) mode and building lots of units.
Harappan party + copper site:
- I don't believe that Asoka would have bunch of units heading our way yet. Rags was the one who declared war and the AIs don't work together too well. This said, I believe that a party of cat + archer + spear + 4 axes is enough to secure the copper site (more axes/something coming from Wash later).
- This would free those 2 swords (+1 built later) and cat to go for Harappan.
- Will scout the way with those galley + wb so that I won't run our settler into danger.
- Will consider healing units in new copper city.
Probably the best way forward. Am concerned about securing Copper City, but a cease fire may be a good decision here.
edit - Should grab Harapan while we can.
New York:
- Building forge would take approximately 20 turns (haven't done the math) and getting the hammers back as a bonus would take 30-40 turns. This sure is kind of a borderline case as CP says.
- Building a trireme here would take maybe bit less than 10 turns now, less later.
- One possibility could be to keep NY as a naval base as suggested and only build boats from there forgetting forge & barracks.
- We would definitely get hammers back and more from forge but do we have time to build it?
I'd do as follows: If we get peace in next few turns, build forge. If not, build trireme => trireme/galley.
I'd also let the cities grow if there were good improved tiles to work and support it. but there really aren't yet, at least not in Seattle. In Atlanta I'd like to get a galley for Harappan party because of it's location and whipping that forge for 28 hammers overflow would do that nicely. Also like to get forges up and running sooner than later. Both cities have enough food to grow back in few turns and it would give our workers some time to improve more tiles there.
But if you guys think we should work a bunch of unimproved tiles here, who am I to oppose. Without that rather fast galley from Atlanta we can say good bye to either Harappan or fast copper city.
Those cities are growing rapidly and have potential for a lot of hammers. Our strategy is to go Specialist Economy fairly soon, so that means losing the whip. Let's get them built and let the cities grow while getting Lighthouses, Libraries, etc built. No sense working unimproved tiles?
I do not disagree with your point. The main question here is how long we have before we make the switch to Caste and Pacifism + Religion? And if we are going to war at all soon, how do we get an Army together quickly without the whip?
I do not disagree with your point. The main question here is how long we have before we make the switch to Caste and Pacifism + Religion? And if we are going to war at all soon, how do we get an Army together quickly without the whip?
I would say before my turn set we should be in Pasi, CS and a state religion. It woud be a shame if we did not have cities that can be used as GP farms.
Also, these two cities are our best food cities unless we intend to starve washington. As such what hurt is it to have 2 specialized cities that can be used to generate the needed Great People?.
I was under the impression that no one want a commited war just now. All we are doing is a defensive war.
Furthermore, if we get a GE to be used to bulb Machnary, I would rather have generated a few scientists as soon as possible to use one GS to part bulb Liberalism before bulbing Machinary.
I would say before my turn set we should be in Pasi, CS and a state religion. Agree. It woud be a shame if we did not have cities that can be used as GP farms. We will have GP farms. Those 3 whipped cities have so much food that they grow back in no time and growing is fastest at low pop. We don't need to have cities at max. pop before we switch to caste, it's better to stay away from unimproved tiles. These 3 whips would be the last for a long time unless we need to whip some emergency units.
Also, these two cities are our best food cities unless we intend to starve washington. That's why they grow back fast. No use to starve Washington. As such what hurt is it to have 2 specialized cities that can be used to generate the needed Great People?. None, but I prefer these last whips while we can still do them.
I was under the impression that no one want a commited war just now. All we are doing is a defensive war. Yup, but at least I want to stay in slavery for a little bit longer in case we need to do some emergency whips.
Furthermore, if we get a GE to be used to bulb Machnary, I would rather have generated a few scientists as soon as possible to use one GS to part bulb Liberalism before bulbing Machinary. Agree. But we need to see first what we get.
After these 5 turns we should concentrate on getting those needed GPs for bulbs one way or another. If it happened that we could get peace on the next turn, I'd skip whipping Atlanta and bring that galley located SW to go for Harappan.
Loaded the save and proceeded according to the plan but didn't get far (T123->T125) until I found a stack from Asoka and wanted to stop for possible comments. Stack consists of sword, 2 axes, chariot and 3 spears so nothing too bad. It's located quite far SW (pic attached) which gives us some options regarding the place we want to fight in.
Good news is that we got HBR from Genghis/Lizzy and first phant is coming from Wash in 3 turns. Bad news is that I had to give them Construction as I didn't want to give Lit away yet. They would have traded HBR <-> Lit or HBR <-> Calendar + 40g but didn't want to lose money either. Plain Calendar would have only netted 40g. As everybody else already had Construction, I traded HBR + 40g <-> Construction (they had only 40g).
Wanted to heal our units in 1 turn so promoted two axes with Combat1, one sword with CR1 and spear with Medic. Those sword + axe that were located in the forest aren't yet healed but it shouldn't take more than 1 turn to get them to full health (with promo + medic-spear). If those truly heal in 1 turn, we could have a stack of archer, cat (or two), 2 swords, spear and 4 axes and here's what I thought to do:
Head to the forest SW of copper and possibly defend there. Asoka's stack would be 1W of that forest when we enter there with our troops. If Asoka doesn't attack, he moves to plains between sheep and copper. We could attack the stack there or move to copper to defend there. If Asoka would still not attack, we would have to attack the stack on the next turn. Pros here would be possible defending with 50% or 25% bonus and quick settling of copper city after the onslaught.
Another possibility would be to wait closer to our borders and attack the stack NE of copper or on the unforested row 1E of that. Here we would have those phants as a bonus attacker.
Loaded the save and proceeded according to the plan but didn't get far (T123->T125) until I found a stack from Asoka and wanted to stop for possible comments. Stack consists of sword, 2 axes, chariot and 3 spears so nothing too bad. It's located quite far SW (pic attached) which gives us some options regarding the place we want to fight in.
Good news is that we got HBR from Genghis/Lizzy and first phant is coming from Wash in 3 turns. Bad news is that I had to give them Construction as I didn't want to give Lit away yet. They would have traded HBR <-> Lit or HBR <-> Calendar + 40g but didn't want to lose money either. Plain Calendar would have only netted 40g. As everybody else already had Construction, I traded HBR + 40g <-> Construction (they had only 40g).
Wanted to heal our units in 1 turn so promoted two axes with Combat1, one sword with CR1 and spear with Medic. Those sword + axe that were located in the forest aren't yet healed but it shouldn't take more than 1 turn to get them to full health (with promo + medic-spear). If those truly heal in 1 turn, we could have a stack of archer, cat (or two), 2 swords, spear and 4 axes and here's what I thought to do:
Head to the forest SW of copper and possibly defend there. Asoka's stack would be 1W of that forest when we enter there with our troops. If Asoka doesn't attack, he moves to plains between sheep and copper. We could attack the stack there or move to copper to defend there. If Asoka would still not attack, we would have to attack the stack on the next turn. Pros here would be possible defending with 50% or 25% bonus and quick settling of copper city after the onslaught.
Another possibility would be to wait closer to our borders and attack the stack NE of copper or on the unforested row 1E of that. Here we would have those phants as a bonus attacker.
If we can get enough units to the forest southwest of copper, that might be ok. Only fear is that he will occupy the forest to the SW and stay there instead of moving up the spoke.
Safest is 2-tiles south and one SW of Philly, in the forest. Looks like 7-turns until he gets there though. Too long seems to me. Would like to get Copper City founded and get some Horses.
RE: confronting Asoka near copper. Guess it depends on how many cats. If you only have one cat and he bypasses you, an offensive battle with the units you mentioned could be costly. If you have two cats it would probably be OK.
If you intend to defend, then a forest near Philly is good but if you intend to attack, then wouldnt the tile the archer is standing (east of desert) is best? That way there can be more units to the fight soon.
If we can get enough units to the forest southwest of copper, that might be ok. Only fear is that he will occupy the forest to the SW and stay there instead of moving up the spoke. I've never seen this kind of thing happening as AI always either attacks the stack or goes around it.
Safest is 2-tiles south and one SW of Philly, in the forest. Looks like 7-turns until he gets there though. Too long seems to me. Would like to get Copper City founded and get some Horses. That forest would be good spot to wait and then attack (don't believe he would attack us there), would have to pillage the road NW from it to avoid Asoka running two tiles at once, though. I too would like to get that copper city up and running fast.
RE: confronting Asoka near copper. Guess it depends on how many cats. If you only have one cat and he bypasses you, an offensive battle with the units you mentioned could be costly. If you have two cats it would probably be OK. Did some counting of tiles and we can get 2 cats to that forest near copper.
If you intend to defend, then a forest near Philly is good but if you intend to attack, then wouldnt the tile the archer is standing (east of desert) is best? That way there can be more units to the fight soon. Don't believe Asoka would attack us in that forest near Philly, the forest near copper has better odds. Archer tile would be good to wait for an attack too unless Asoka wanted to go south route via forests.
Thanks for quick comments, guys! As we can get both cats in time to that forest SW of copper, I'll take our troops there to defend. Some of the troops even have time to fortify there for a turn of two. 2 cats, archer, 2 swords, spear and 4 axes should be enough either in defence or in offence but need to build 1-2 more cats in Wash as replacements after that phant comes out. If Asoka doesn't attack but moves to plains 1N of that forest instead, I'll attack him there.
This will delay the Harappan party a bit but I'll see what can be done after this stack of Asoka is taken care of.
Hopefully this works even after the next set of discussion as it was time to stop just before the onslaught...
First things first, we popped a GE in NK for Machinery. Everything went pretty much according to the plan except I didn't whip settler in Philly as building it normally takes only 5 turns. Mansa/Shaka now have CS and Mansa switched to Bure already.
Will post a detailed report a bit later. Attached are a pic about the situation with Asoka's stack and the intermediate save (haven't uploaded it anywhere).
Report from T123 to T128, interesting things are in blue:
T123:
- NK: farm -> mine => GLib in 5 turns.
- Wash: mine -> farm to grow faster.
- Philly: citizen -> sheep.
- Seattle: phf -> lake to grow faster.
- Worker 5: cancel mission.
- Move some units SW near Philly.
IBT:
- Genghis demands Currency -> reject.
- Genghis/Lizzy will trade HBR.
- We are the worst enemy of Rags/Asoka.
- Rags/Asoka are the worst enemy Genghis/Lizzy.
T124:
- Wash: axe => axe (changed to phant after trading HBR).
- Boston: library => sword.
- Genghis/Lizzy have HBR + 40g to trade. They would agree HBR <-> Lit or HBR <-> Calendar + 40g but I don't want to give away Lit or gold. End up trading HBR + 40g <-> Construction as everybody else has Construction already.
- Wash: change axe to phant, assign engineer to mine to get phant out in 4 turns.
- Atl: 3 pop whip forge.
- Scout with galley + wb, find nothing.
- Promote: sword -> CR1, spear -> Medic1 and 2 axes -> Combat1 to heal them in 1 turn.
IBT:
- Monty wants to trade Compass <-> Lit + 180g -> reject (don't want to give away all our gold). - Gandhi/Monty -> Vassalage so they have Feudalism now.
- Genghis -> Theocracy.
T125:
- NY: Moai => trireme, mine -> coast.
- Atl: forge => galley.
- Seattle: 3 pop whip forge. - Scout SW with wb and see Asoka's stack (sword, 2 axes, chariot, 3 spears) and stop for quick comments.
After quick comments, decide to confront Asoka's stack in a forest SW of copper. Asoka will either attack our stack defending in the forest or move to plains 1N of the forest after which we will attack him there.
Continue T125:
- Promote sword -> Combat1 to heal in 1 turn.
- Move troops, load settler + missionary to galley near copper.
IBT:
- NY forms culture bridge to south.
- Mansa/Shaka are the worst enemy of Genghis/Lizzy.
T126:
- Philly: forge => settler, decide not to whip settler as it takes only 5 turns to build it normally and we already have one settler quite idle.
- Seattle: forge => LH.
- Move troops.
IBT:
- Monty has 610g to trade, too bad he only needs Lit from us.
T127:
- Boston: sword => phant.
- Chop forest in glh near Seattle for LH and to be able to mine the glh.
- Road copper with 2 workers.
IBT:
- Asoka's stack moves next to the forest as predicted. - NK pops a GE (for Machinery, I presume?).
- Another GE pops somewhere. - Mansa adopts Bure so Mansa/Shaka has CS now.
- Rags/Asoka are the worst enemy of Genghis/Lizzy.
T128:
- NK: GLib => NE (as a placeholder).
- Wash: phant => cat.
- Chicago: Halt growth as food bar is 13/26, wait for granary.
- Stop for more discussion.
Here's the log from BUFFY:
Spoiler:
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------ Turn 123/500 (200 AD) [15-Oct-2011 18:40:02] 0% Research: 29 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 22 per turn, 173 in the bank
After End Turn: Washington finishes: Axeman Boston grows to size 8 Boston finishes: Library Philadelphia grows to size 10 Atlanta grows to size 7
Other Player Actions: Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the North (Mongolia) towards Good Witch of the West (India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious' Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Good Witch of the West (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Turn 124/500 (225 AD) [15-Oct-2011 18:40:13] Diplomacy (Tribute Demand): Wicked Witch of the North (Mongolia) demands that Dorothy (America) gives Currency; Dorothy REFUSES. Washington begins: Axeman (3 turns) Boston begins: Swordsman (3 turns) Tech traded to Wicked Witch of the North (Mongolia): Construction Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Horseback Riding Washington begins: War Elephant (5 turns) A Cottage was built near Not Kansas Spearman 1 (Washington) promoted: Medic I Swordsman 2 (Not Kansas) promoted: City Raider I Axeman 1 (Not Kansas) promoted: Combat I Axeman 3 promoted: Combat I 0% Research: 26 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 18 per turn, 235 in the bank
After End Turn: The whip was applied in Atlanta New York grows to size 4 New York finishes: Moai Statues Atlanta finishes: Forge Seattle grows to size 6
Other Player Actions: Judaism has spread: Not Kansas Taoism has spread: Canterbury (English Empire) Civics Change: Wicked Witch of the West(Aztec) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage' Civics Change: Good Witch of the West(India) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage' Civics Change: Wicked Witch of the North(Mongolia) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'
Turn 125/500 (250 AD) [15-Oct-2011 19:13:28] Diplomacy: Wicked Witch of the West (Aztec) offers to trade Compass to Dorothy (America) for Literature New York begins: Trireme (9 turns) Atlanta begins: Galley (50 turns) A Mine was built near Washington
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------ Turn 125/500 (250 AD) [16-Oct-2011 14:37:00] Swordsman 1 (Not Kansas) promoted: Combat I 0% Research: 26 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 18 per turn, 253 in the bank
After End Turn: Washington grows to size 8 New York's borders expand Philadelphia finishes: Forge Atlanta grows to size 5 Chicago grows to size 3 Seattle finishes: Forge
Other Player Actions: State Religion Change: Good Witch of the North (England) from 'Taoism' to 'Judaism' Civics Change: Wicked Witch of the East(Vikings) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'
Turn 126/500 (275 AD) [16-Oct-2011 14:44:31] Philadelphia begins: Settler (5 turns) Seattle begins: Lighthouse (20 turns) 0% Research: 26 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 26 per turn, 271 in the bank
After End Turn: Boston finishes: Swordsman Seattle grows to size 4
Other Player Actions: Taoism has spread: Nottingham (English Empire) Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the East (Vikings) towards Dorothy (America), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Turn 127/500 (300 AD) [16-Oct-2011 14:58:58] Boston begins: Swordsman (3 turns) Boston begins: War Elephant (4 turns) A Pasture was built near Philadelphia A Farm was built near Atlanta 0% Research: 26 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 27 per turn, 297 in the bank
After End Turn: Whip anger has decreased in Boston Not Kansas finishes: The Great Library Charles Augustin de Coulomb (Great Engineer) born in Not Kansas Washington finishes: War Elephant New York grows to size 5 Boston grows to size 9 Atlanta grows to size 6
Other Player Actions: Attitude Change: Good Witch of the South (Mali) towards Wicked Witch of the East (Vikings), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed' Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the South (Zululand) towards Wicked Witch of the East (Vikings), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious' Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the North (Mongolia) towards Wicked Witch of the South (Zululand), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious' Attitude Change: Good Witch of the North (England) towards Wicked Witch of the South (Zululand), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased' Attitude Change: Wicked Witch of the East (Vikings) towards Wicked Witch of the South (Zululand), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious' Civics Change: Good Witch of the South(Mali) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Turn 128/500 (325 AD) [16-Oct-2011 15:13:14] Not Kansas begins: National Epic (7 turns) Washington begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Switch science to Music at 100%.
Sell Lit to india for map and as much as of their gold.
Keep the GE intact.
Sell what we can to get more money.
We can have a GA for our GA in 4 turns.
The settler and the missionary are for copper right?
Switch science to Music at 100%.
Sell Lit to india for map and as much as of their gold.
Keep the GE intact. Yes, to be able to bulb Liberalism later.
Sell what we can to get more money.
We can have a GA for our GA in 4 turns. Had something like this on my mind too.
The settler and the missionary are for copper right? I'm bit puzzled here as I started to think if I should have already settled that seafood-city south of NK with one settler as it's quite idle really. Either settler+missionary pair can be used to settle the copper city once Asoka's stack is history, both of them can access the site fast. I was just thinking if I should load an axe or something to that galley instead of missionary and go settle that site SW of York after dealing with Asoka. Could follow it with missionary + another garrison/worker.
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, guys! As everybody can see, there are plenty of hard decisions at hand as we're getting mixed opinions here.
