SGOTM 14 - Xteam

leif erikson · Nov 3, 2011

Interesting, this game is turning into a have and have not's kind of situation. The Witches of the East and North are tech poor and ripe for the taking. Agree with change to Education. Sooner we get a partial bulb of Liberalism, the sooner we can get Maces and take some cities.

Shaka is ready to trade Machinery.

We may have to soon plan to hit one of the civs in the leading pairs to slow their tech rate, unless we need them to trade with?

While it doesn't look like the fortress at the end of our spoke has a blank tile in the middle, it would be nice to see it from the SW water tile, but cannot do that unless we build a city to build a WBoat. :rolleyes:

Thinking we really need Astronomy? Not clear what our tech goals are, beyond Education and partial Liberalism?

Htadus · Nov 3, 2011

leif erikson said:
Interesting, this game is turning into a have and have not's kind of situation. The Witches of the East and North are tech poor and ripe for the taking. Agree with change to Education. Sooner we get a partial bulb of Liberalism, the sooner we can get Maces and take some cities.Agreed but we can start sooner with cats, phants and the type

Shaka is ready to trade Machinery. I know , i wish we could take it now but oh well. Cuirassas can make the differance.

We may have to soon plan to hit one of the civs in the leading pairs to slow their tech rate, unless we need them to trade with?Once we have both east and north lands and are using trebs and Cuirassa, non of them are an issue.

While it doesn't look like the fortress at the end of our spoke has a blank tile in the middle, it would be nice to see it from the SW water tile, but cannot do that unless we build a city to build a WBoat.

Thinking we really need Astronomy? Not clear what our tech goals are, beyond Education and partial Liberalism?

We will need Astro. So after part bulbing Liberalism, it is back to Nationalism as long as there are no other AI can threaten the race. Get MT from Lib, trade for Optics and double bulb astro. Meanwhile tech / bulb Gun Powder. Shut off science.

I will set up next player to go after both East and North(england) unless I am asked to do otherwise. Any ways, I should be done with my set by tonight. I will play after my kids are gone to asleep, about 5 hurs from now.

leif erikson · Nov 3, 2011

We also need to figure out where to look for Oz as well. Those redoubts are almost too obvious, I am still wondering about the area west of Aztec lands that we cannot yet see because of oceans. I also wonder if there is anything tucked into a corner below Asoka that might be hidden?

Gandhi will be high on the list of who to whack as he has The Great Wall, that is if we need it? :crazyeye:

Cactus Pete · Nov 3, 2011

Looking good, Htadus.

Is unwillingness to trade Music for Machinery because it is needed for MT? If so, do folks have experience with AI teching toward MT as a priority?

Htadus said:
We will need Astro. Concur. So after part bulbing Liberalism, it is back to Nationalism as long as there are no other AI can threaten the race. Get MT from Lib, trade for Optics and double bulb astro. Meanwhile tech / bulb Gun Powder. Shut off science. What about Machinery; otherwise, excellent tentative plan.

I will set up next player to go after both East and North(england) unless I am asked to do otherwise. Not sure that we want to do both at once initially. Any ways, I should be done with my set by tonight. I will play after my kids are gone to asleep, about 5 hurs from now.

What about a wkbt for Harrapan from Chicago?

leif erikson · Nov 3, 2011

Cactus Pete said:
Is unwillingness to trade Music for Machinery because it is needed for MT? If so, do folks have experience with AI teching toward MT as a priority?

We could trade for Machinery now, however, that would leave us unable to bulb Liberalism. Once we get a Scientist bulb into Liberalism, we can trade for Machinery and go to town. :hammer:

Cactus Pete · Nov 3, 2011

Got it. Thanks, leif.

The-Hawk · Nov 3, 2011

Htadus, are you planning to send the spy over to East? Might be nice to scope out their lands. I would assume they are better lands than north since liz is teching so pooly. We may want to conquer east first instead of north.

Htadus · Nov 3, 2011

Ok. I will set up Single front and Asoka it will be.

Yes Hawk, he is heading to East to scout.

playing now and will upload after wards. I will play till the completion of Education.

leif erikson · Nov 3, 2011

Good luck. :cheers:

Htadus · Nov 3, 2011

Ok team Education came in a bit fast and I just uploaded the save. I am tired so best pass the game on. There is a WOTM that need my attention

.

Well, we know Education, there are two GS's waiting to be used and another will be born next turn in GP farm. One for Lib and another for PP after trading for or Bulbing Machinary. I would even trade education for it. The new GS can be kept for Astro. Continue running scientists in GP farm for the second GS we need to bulb Astro. We should be able to trade for Optics pretty soon.

I have begged for gold and got some from Monty. Shaka wont even give 10gold.

If we run many scientists all over, we should get Nationalism in 5-6 turns.

Our Trireme got killed while looking at Asoka's capital. However, India and England is poorly defended. So next player has options.

Here is the link to official save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm14/Xteam_SG014_AD0660_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Spoiler :

Some images:

Spoiler :

Are you guys sure we are not ready for 2 fronts?

leif erikson · Nov 3, 2011

Very nice Htadus. :goodjob:

We have Education and more and getting an army ready to strike. :hammer:

Roster:
The-Hawk - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
Mad Professor
leif
DJMGator13
-Asterix-
Htadus :worship:

Got to go look at the save. :scan:

Looking at the graph, seems like PD just whipped an army. :eek:

edit - just had a quick look.

Think we should use a GS on Liberalism immediately and then trade for Machinery (Good Witch of South - Mansa will give Machinery plus 45 Gold for Music). Think Htadus has a point, should consider two fronts?

Should be able to get Optics. Think we should also try to pick up some maps, particularly of those civs with Optics who have had a chance to scout around a bit. Perhaps we can see where Oz is?

Enough for now, time for some :sleep:

The-Hawk · Nov 4, 2011

Bit of a busy weekend for me. CP, if you have some cycles, I'd be happy to swap places with you. If not, I'll take the ball. Probably will not be able to play the turnset until early next week.

Cactus Pete · Nov 4, 2011

Hawk has the ball. My weekend is constrained by family plans. Will try to look at the save and help with a comment or two.

The-Hawk · Nov 4, 2011

OK sounds good, I've got the ball.

I will post some preliminary plans later this afternoon. Hopefully I can get some feedback tonight and tomorrow. I am out of pocket all day Sunday, but should be able to play Mon if we have alignment by then.

The-Hawk · Nov 4, 2011

My initial thoughts:

I am really surprised to see East wants a city for peace. I would have thought your chewing up their stack would have changed that.

War Plans

So here is my concern with “two fronts”. We already have 2 fronts. Htadus’ second screencap shows a stack of 7 heading towards San Fran. I believe an offensive strike at Asoka should be aimed at Prayaga. Prayaga will be a second front because San Fran will come under continuous attack and will require 6-7 units remain. Even if we attack Asoka from San Fran and work up his spoke, we will still be facing attack from Rags in San Fran. While Asoka might lose interest in SF in favor of defending his capital, Rags will press the attack. We will need to leave a defending force sufficient to deal with a full strength AI (after all, we will not be destroying any of Rags' core cities). Two AIs in a team means two fronts no matter where we attack Asoka.
Going after Liz really means opening up a third front. Since we will be keeping cities, each offensive army will attrite resources as defenders. I simply can’t see us maintaining three armies quite yet. Here are two more considerations:

I am not seeing much in Liz’s land that excites me. Maybe there is something good under the FOW but what we see is pretty hammer poor. What we see of Asoka’s land looks marginally better.
Given the tech rate of team AI’s, I am concerned East will get LBs or Maces very shortly. I would rather think in terms of hitting Asoka hard as quickly as possible. If he does research LB’s then a smallish army will not suffice.

So, all things considered, I think we should attack Prayaga asap. It will be the base for receiving reinforcing units from our homeland. From there, we can go after Asoka’s heartland. Eventually, we will work down his spoke and when we reach SF, we’ve eliminated a front.
Meanwhile, while we are warring with East, we can begin building maces, cats, and Phants for our third front with Liz. However, if East researches advanced units and bogs us down, we can defer the war with Liz and pour our new units into East as reinforcements.

Tech actions:

Turn 0, put a GS bulb into Liberalism, then immediately trade for machinery. At this point, I will favor Maces over Phants as they can get city raider.
Finish Nationalism
Finish Liberalism and take Miltrad as free tech
Follow Lib/Miltrad with Gunpowder. Might as well get Curassiers asap.
In the mean time, hopefully we can trade for Optics and then double bulb Astronomy. If not, slow research Optics after Gunpowder.
If we are able to trade for Machinery, we will not need our GE to bulb it. What do we want to do with him? Should be bulb Engineering for Trebs and increased movement?

Civics:

At some point, I would like to revolt back to slavery. I hate losing starving, unhappy conquered citizens who could be converted into courthouses or more units. However, that will need to wait until we finish our tech plan.

Odds and Ends:

Trade for Gandhi map and hopefully find OZ.
Trade a happy resource to Monty for 6 gpt. We don't have any spare happy resources, but we are plenty of happiness in our cities. If we get into serious war weariness, we can cancel the trade with Monty.

Edit: Btw, very nice set Htadus. You've teed up out GP bulbing very nicely!

Htadus · Nov 4, 2011

All I have to add to Hawks plan is that we may want to use Nationalism to recruit bunch of Macemen before we learn gunpowder. As you mentioned, we do have plently of happy and each city will get 2 more happy from Nationism. Also after Gunpowder, we may want to consider salvery and PS combo.

Oh I agree with holding back 3rd front.

And thanks guys.

leif erikson · Nov 4, 2011

The-Hawk said:
War Plans

So here is my concern with “two fronts”. We already have 2 fronts. Htadus’ second screencap shows a stack of 7 heading towards San Fran. I believe an offensive strike at Asoka should be aimed at Prayaga. Prayaga will be a second front because San Fran will come under continuous attack and will require 6-7 units remain. Even if we attack Asoka from San Fran and work up his spoke, we will still be facing attack from Rags in San Fran. While Asoka might lose interest in SF in favor of defending his capital, Rags will press the attack. We will need to leave a defending force sufficient to deal with a full strength AI (after all, we will not be destroying any of Rags' core cities). Two AIs in a team means two fronts no matter where we attack Asoka.

Going after Liz really means opening up a third front. Since we will be keeping cities, each offensive army will attrite resources as defenders. I simply can’t see us maintaining three armies quite yet.

Agree in principle.

Thinking that perhaps the next target may be more substantial, if we are ready. Perhaps Montie or Shaka? We can decide later. Bringing it up in case we should start marshaling units towards the end of your set?

The-Hawk said:
So, all things considered, I think we should attack Prayaga asap. It will be the base for receiving reinforcing units from our homeland. From there, we can go after Asoka’s heartland. Eventually, we will work down his spoke and when we reach SF, we’ve eliminated a front.

Meanwhile, while we are warring with East, we can begin building maces, cats, and Phants for our third front with Liz. However, if East researches advanced units and bogs us down, we can defer the war with Liz and pour our new units into East as reinforcements.

Concur, Asoka it is. Please see above.

The-Hawk said:
Tech actions:

Turn 0, put a GS bulb into Liberalism, then immediately trade for machinery. At this point, I will favor Maces over Phants as they can get city raider.

Finish Nationalism

Finish Liberalism and take Miltrad as free tech

Follow Lib/Miltrad with Gunpowder. Might as well get Curassiers asap.

In the mean time, hopefully we can trade for Optics and then double bulb Astronomy. If not, slow research Optics after Gunpowder.

If we are able to trade for Machinery, we will not need our GE to bulb it. What do we want to do with him? Should be bulb Engineering for Trebs and increased movement?

Yes, I think use the Engineer for Engineering. (that even sounds logical)

Sooner we can manage to get Astro, the better.

The-Hawk said:
Civics:

At some point, I would like to revolt back to slavery. I hate losing starving, unhappy conquered citizens who could be converted into courthouses or more units. However, that will need to wait until we finish our tech plan.

Yes, Slavery is great for recently captured cities. :whipped:

The-Hawk said:
Odds and Ends:

Trade for Gandhi map and hopefully find OZ.

Trade a happy resource to Monty for 6 gpt. We don't have any spare happy resources, but we are plenty of happiness in our cities. If we get into serious war weariness, we can cancel the trade with Monty.

Yes, agree with all of this.

We need to find Oz as that may lead us to our next conquest victim. :hammer:

Cactus Pete · Nov 5, 2011

Like what Hawk's outlined. Comments from save:

Forests need to be chopped into units.

Washington shuld be utilizing mined grass hill -- with HE that's a 6 hammer tile, and faster growth doesn't merit not utilizing it now.

What's the logic of running a single scientist in Atlanta?

Will repeat my suggestion to build a wkbt in Chicago for Harrapan.

Don't think we will need a barracks in SF -- it can build missionaries and ships.

Build only cats and maces for a while where we have barracks.

Pains me to see 3 WEs sitting idle in Harrapan -- suggest sailing into Phily, dropping WE and cat, and returning to Harrapan to pick up 2 of them.

There's a potential 3CR sword in SF that should be cherished and upgraded to Mace at some point -- perhaps as early as when we take Prayaga -- and moved to India (unless you want to raze Minoan for the gold) as it is not wise to use it except against cities.

-Asterix- · Nov 5, 2011

Nice turnset, Htadus! :goodjob:

Plans look good and I really like it how we're getting to cuirassiers. Some comments:

Warring: Agree with others, Asoka should be the first target with cats+maces+phants+whatever we can get fast, no use to start war with a third party until we're finished with Asoka (or build another army).

Engineering: Should be bulbed by GE if Machinery can be traded. Has anybody checked if getting Engineering messes up our way to Astro bulb-wise? Don't like trebs that much, but that extra movement sure is handy. Reason for this is that soon we can start building masses of cuirassiers and all 1-movement units will just be too slow.

Civics: Definitely like slavery + PS once we're sure we get those Great Scientists for Astro. Should also switch to Theo at that point. Nationhood for mace-drafting would also be nice but there may be too small window for that as at least I would like to see cuirassiers up and running asap. +2 happiness from it goes to cities with barracks and we don't yet have many of those. Golden Age for all this would be great to avoid anarchies but options are limited: Taj or two "random" GPs. Taj would take some time to build and there are lots of other things to build, GPs start to get more expensive and we still need some GSci for Astro.

I will be rather occupied with ongoing XOTMs for don't-know-how-many weeks but I'll try to follow the discussion and give comments if necessary. Keep up the good work!

leif erikson · Nov 5, 2011

<deleted> Wrong answer...

SGOTM 14 - Xteam

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