SGOTM 14 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Phew. well, I guess I really did not get the full picture of the current state of the game. Ok, I need some sleep. That is the best news I could hear. Thank you for that leif.

Cuddle up with your son, preferably in front of the fireplace, and have a good nap.

 

[Cactus Pete]

i do not think we should be helping ai with tech trades. 10% science boost is something they do not need help with. where does the 10% come from?

markets are better than banks. don't follow. Banks yield 50% gold while markets only 25%.

cp, let me add a couple of more options for the gg.

1. Gather 7 units with 5 exp points. Hopefully include a chariot. Need at least 2 units that can be promoted along the woodsman line. Recommend a combo of maces and gunpowder. Assign the gg to the chariot. All but 1 will get 3 exp points. Give the gunpowder units woodsman line all the way to woodsman3. Now you got 2 non gg super healers and one leadership star cuirassas and 3 cr3 maces and another unit 1 point from promo. Any melee and gunpowder unit can get woody3 promo and they are non gg super medics. don't follow this either. Woodsman3 yields only 15% healing. How is that a supermedic? Medic 2 (SAME NUMBER OF PROMOTIONS) yields 20% and medic3 35%.

2. The other option is also similar, but this time only use chaiot, 2 lb’s and a few galleys. Now they can stay with a couple of caravals for amphibious assaults. Mounted units can run while the trebs travel by boat. please explain this. Which units promoted to what?

finally to the third front.

i am not saying to start a third front with out units. Even i am not that rash. But those units need to be started now and whipped/drafted. In 10 turn time, the third front can be started the latest.

options:

go into a nationalism and draft units for 10 turns. That is 30 units.
Go into slavery, 2 pop whip units every other turn for 6 turns in 6 cities. why every other turn? 3 x 6 units. Not as good as nationalism but still good. Nationalism would have been great if we could draft.first you say go into nationalism and draft, then you say too bad we can't draft. Either way, we lose at least 30 citizens and their gold/production, which is a minimum of 2 per citizen or 60+ per turn. Can't see taking such a monumental risk now. The logistics are particularly difficult with this map, we don't really know what we're up against, and we don't even have galleons to transport units yet.

here is the essens of a war game. 1 turn wasted in anarchy now will get us 10 back in 20 turns with capture gold and cities. No i did not do the math but it will work. basically agree with this, just don't think 'now' is now.

anyways there are options, we just need to chose something. I would rather come in last place due to a risk gone wrong than coming in next to last because we took the safe route.

there is also calculated risk.

Hawk, did you see anything going on in the fog that I should know about? Puzzling over why all the units are holed up in SF.

 

[The-Hawk]

Hawk, did you see anything going on in the fog that I should know about? Puzzling over why all the units are holed up in SF.

The battle of SF just ended 3 turns ago. Pretty much the whole stack was wounded and have been recovering. I did not see any major stacks recently, so you might want to send some units out to kill Rags hub city.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The battle of SF just ended 3 turns ago. Pretty much the whole stack was wounded and have been recovering. I did not see any major stacks recently, so you might want to send some units out to kill Rags hub city.

Yes, and to act as an early warning system.

 

[Htadus]

there is also calculated risk.
.

Yes there are risks. 3-4 trebs with collateral and extra city barrage and a few cuirassas can start havoc in the england. Never even need to use the trebs if need be, 1 turn of culture stripping and the cuirassas can take those city. Brind a few Muskets for defense.

Here are some reply's.

Free religion gives 10% boost to science.

Medic 1 gives a boost to the units on the tile, medic 2 gives a boost to the units on adjacent tiles and medic 3 gives 15% boost. The total for medic 3 and woody3 is 25%.

Markets/grocer allow 2 merchents and get the 25% boost each. Banks allow 0 merchants but 50%. We may need to run merchants under slavery.

The second GG use has a typo. I mistakenly typed LB when I wanted to write melee or gunpowder unit for Woody 3. Basically 1 stable unit for great leader, 2 units to get woody3 and galley's. But this option is not needed with Astro.

The last comment on the draft is missing Maces. as in too bad we can not draft Maces. They could have had great effect from the rax and Theo. Then use the GG to get them the needed exp to get then CR2. Anyways 3 star musket is very close to a CR2 mace anyways.

By the way the draft route and whip routes are just potential options. Any combination will work. I would both draft and whip.

I think I need to stay off of Snatty's Diety AW games and Kossins Diety raging barb games.

 

[leif erikson]

Markets/grocer allow 2 merchents and get the 25% boost each. Banks allow 0 merchants but 50%. We may need to run merchants under slavery.

Let's do some math (which I hope is correct):
In NK, our base commerce is currently 38, which creates 38 Gold. With a Bank, we would generate +50%, so we would generate 57 Gold. With a Marketplace, we would generate 47.5 and could run 2 Merchants producing 3 Gold each for a total of 53.5 Gold, at 0% Science. The Bank would free up citizens to be Scientists, so we could also gain +12 beakers per turn running 2 Scientist. Seems Bank is better here?

In Atlanta, base commerce is 20, so a Bank would mean 30 Gold. A Marketplace would give us +25 and with 2 Merchants, +31. The Merchants also give us +3 beakers per turn, so this city may do better with a Marketplace? Seattle is in the same boat with Atalanta, +20 base commerce.

edit - Congrats to Htadus for his Bronze in wotm39.

 

[The-Hawk]

I think your logic is good. In some cities, a bank will simply be better. However, some of our other cities will probably require merchants to generate commerce. Once we switch to slavery, we might need a few of these cities to have a marketplace or grocier just so we can run the specialists.

Of course, more than anything, our hammers need to go to units. I would be judicious about building lots of infra. Certainly makes sense in our higher commerce cities, may allow us to revolt to slavery and PS sooner.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Here are some reply's.

Free religion gives 10% boost to science. Understood, and thanks for the education. Won't make the trade unless/until I want to build a bank.

Medic 1 gives a boost to the units on the tile, medic 2 gives a boost to the units on adjacent tiles and medic 3 gives 15% boost. Got it. I misunderstood Medic2. The total for medic 3 and woody3 is 25%. Woody3 is only 15%. How do you get to 25%?

Markets/grocer allow 2 merchents and get the 25% boost each. Banks allow 0 merchants but 50%. We may need to run merchants under slavery. Understood. Agree with other posters that it depends on the particular city and that infrastructure is not the number one priority now (but it needs to be considered).

The second GG use has a typo. I mistakenly typed LB when I wanted to write melee or gunpowder unit for Woody 3. Basically 1 stable unit for great leader, 2 units to get woody3 and galley's. But this option is not needed with Astro. Unless someone can explain to me how Woody3s get 25% healing, going to go with traditional supermedic.

I think I need to stay off of Snatty's Diety AW games and Kossins Diety raging barb games.

Not sure about that. You are bringing a different perspective.

Playing in about an hour. Will check back here regularly.

 

[leif erikson]

Good Luck CP.

Thinking Woody3 is in combo with Medic1 to get to 25%? Not sure though.

 

[Htadus]

Cuddle up with your son, preferably in front of the fireplace, and have a good nap.

No luck there, he was in a talkative mode. I did try .

Let's do some math (which I hope is correct):
In NK, our base commerce is currently 38, which creates 38 Gold. With a Bank, we would generate +50%, so we would generate 57 Gold. With a Marketplace, we would generate 47.5 and could run 2 Merchants producing 3 Gold each for a total of 53.5 Gold, at 0% Science. The Bank would free up citizens to be Scientists, so we could also gain +12 beakers per turn running 2 Scientist. Seems Bank is better here?

In Atlanta, base commerce is 20, so a Bank would mean 30 Gold. A Marketplace would give us +25 and with 2 Merchants, +31. The Merchants also give us +3 beakers per turn, so this city may do better with a Marketplace? Seattle is in the same boat with Atalanta, +20 base commerce.

edit - Congrats to Htadus for his Bronze in wotm39.

You beat me to it.

Any city that can produce more than 30 commerce per turn will get better benefit from a Bank. Any city making less than 30 and can run 2 merchants can get better benefit from a market.

Thaks leif, it was nice for 3 builders to get the medals in that game. Thanks neilmeister.

Good Luck CP.

Thinking Woody3 is in combo with Medic1 to get to 25%? Not sure though.

You got that right .

Okay....now that I am awake, let me explain that particular woody3 axe I had. He was a worker stealer warrior with woody2 and a star. When he got more exp points I gave him woody3 and after he became an axe, he got the medic 1 by accident. A misclick. He was an awsome terror I used on an ongoing HOF challenge game. Not a bad way to promote a unit in a war game.

I too agree with Hawk that our hammers should be directed toward units.

BTW CP, I was not very clear as to when to whip. After we take the first 2-3 cities and has the gold to support our economy. As for the reason for whiping every other turn, it is to avoid the hammer penelty for new units being whipped from nothing. This can be avoided by building a unit up to two whip point, switch to another, and repeat for no more than 3 units for size 8 city. Then whip all three in a row.

My preferd is to whip and not finish the unit if not immidiately needed.

Sort of whip a Cuira(highest hammer), switch to Treb and whip when ready, switch to another unit(lowest hammer) and 2 pop whip when able to and complete the units in the lowest to highest hammer order. There is almost no way to loose hammers from overflow. the Next unit comes out rather quickly.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Let me add my congrats on the bronze, Htadus.

Understand the woody business now -- it takes a lot of experience, but does not require a GG.

Also, now understand your method for whipping.

Playing . . . Will post an interim save (probably late tonight), unless I run into issues for discussion.

 

[Cactus Pete]

RL intervened and was only able to play a few turns.

Report for Turns 163 (1030 AD) to 166

T163:
Switch to Chem
Micro-manage cities
Trade wine for furs with Shaka
Send Harappan worker through England to scout defenses
Take Prayaga (no losses)
Advance units from SF

IBT:
Good West completes Paya and Wicked South completes Mousollos

T164:
Find 5 caravels in waters around Bombay, which slows plans for attacking that city
Upgrade a galley to galleon

IBT:
West learns Constitution

T165:
Sink 4 of 5 caravels (lose 1 trireme)

IBT:
South completes Sistine Chapel
Last caravel retreats into Bombay

T166:
Advance on Bombay and prepare to raze Sigtuna

Should be able to make more progress in about 15 hours. Input welcome. Have noted drain on treasury. Next turn plan to use GG on HA and what?

Interim save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306506&stc=1&d=1320907488

 

[The-Hawk]

Off to a good start!!!

Have noted drain on treasury. Gandhi has 230 gold, might be worth a tech trade to collect this. He also has 6 gpt, we have spare wheat he will take. Other than that, think we need to turn some more hammer citizens into merchants. Maybe in Phila to improve the odds we get a GM for our next great person.

Next turn plan to use GG on HA and what?

Htadus seems to have this super-medic thing cold, but let me take a crack. Going to write it out so someone can check my facts. Looks like we need 13 experience to promote to medic 3. I think the HA is the best candidate since it can move for 2 and keep up with Curaissiers. HA has 7 now, so we need 6 more. This means we can split the 20 from the GG among 3 units. I would take the HA and make him a GG medic 3. Also include the spear to make him a medic 2 backup (for when we split our army). Final choice would be Maceman 3 (the one with CR1 and CR2). Might as well give him CR3 and one more promo.

Won't be long and we will be looking at emancipation unhappiness. We might be cancelling some of our happy resource trades. Pretty critical we get our economy in order.

 

[leif erikson]

Looking good CP.

Agree with Hawk, can trade Liberalism to Gandhi for Banking, 210 Gold and World Map. Also, he will take our wheat and give us 6 gpt. That World Map may also tell us more about the Barb area on the far western side of the map?

The Galleys you have loaded Prayaga, might want to drop off the units on the Gold Hill NW of Bombay to avoid the river crossing penalty?

Also agree with Hawk on the use of the GG, sounds like a good idea to me. I just tested this with the three units he specified. The GG went to the Horse Archer and he got Medic3, the Spear got Medic2 and the Mace not only got City raider 3, but depending upon how many XP's he has (I gave him 8) he also gets to Woodsman3.

Keep up the good work!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Agree with Hawk, can trade Liberalism to Gandhi for Banking, 210 Gold and World Map. Also, he will take our wheat and give us 6 gpt. That World Map may also tell us more about the Barb area on the far western side of the map? Will do, unless I read objections in the next 5 hours before I can play again.

The Galleys you have loaded Prayaga, might want to drop off the units on the Gold Hill NW of Bombay to avoid the river crossing penalty? Yes, of course.

Also agree with Hawk on the use of the GG, sounds like a good idea to me. I just tested this with the three units he specified. The GG went to the Horse Archer and he got Medic3, the Spear got Medic2 and the Mace not only got City raider 3, but depending upon how many XP's he has (I gave him 8) he also gets to Woodsman3. Okay, definitely HA (which can then be upgraded to cur) and two other units, but like upgrading cat or two from 3 exp. to 9 -- that's a significant improvement in utility.

Keep up the good work!

Thanks, that will be the intent.

 

[leif erikson]

The Galleys you have loaded Prayaga, might want to drop off the units on the Gold Hill NW of Bombay to avoid the river crossing penalty? Yes, of course.

I figured you had that under control, just couldn't help myself.

Okay, definitely HA (which can then be upgraded to cur) and two other units, but like upgrading cat or two from 3 exp. to 9 -- that's a significant improvement in utility.

Cats or would Trebs be better?

 

[Htadus]

I am good with all that is being discussed.

But would like to offer another options for GG.

Use a warrior with a star and give him Superhealer and extra movement promo available for the GG. Upgrade him to a Mace. Now you have a 2 movement melee unit that can run with cuirrassas and no pike can touch them.

 

[The-Hawk]

Use a warrior with a star and give him Superhealer and extra movement promo available for the GG. Upgrade him to a Mace. Now you have a 2 movement melee unit that can run with cuirrassas and no pike can touch them.

Nice! You have a very creative (and diabolical) mind!

My only question... should we turn our supermedic into a Curaissier protector, or should we specialize the unit in one or the other. Would hate to see our medic killed by a couple of successive pikeman attacks. Wonder if a Cur protector should be promoted with combat promotions along with the movement promo (which means we need two GGs to do both)??

 

[Cactus Pete]

We have no one-star warrior (though I don't understand why he would need a star), but expecting our superhealer to run with curs seems paradoxical. He is going to be stationary to heal units much of the time. So going to go with HA, treb, and galley (for extra movement, will pair with stared cavavel).

"Won't be long and we will be looking at emancipation unhappiness. We might be cancelling some of our happy resource trades." Please explain potential need to cancel happiness trades?

Playing now . . . will be checking back regularly and posting late tonight (unless something comes up).

 

[The-Hawk]

Given our desperate economy, I converted excess happiness to gpt. I made two trades where we only had 1 of a resource (IIRC we are getting 12 gpt from these two resources). In each case, we lost a happy face, but we have so much surplus happiness in our cities, we did not need them. Once emancipation hits (or war weariness), unhappy faces will grow. At some point, when we lose our excess happiness, we will need to cancel these two trades to get the happy resource back. This will lower our gpt. Hopefully, long before we need to cancel these deals, our economy will be running a surplus.