SGOTM 14 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

Report for Turns 172 to 179 – won’t bore you with too many details

Gradually conquering England (now has knights)
Moving cautiously and pillaging roads to cut off reinforcements
The East has not declared on us or shown signs of doing so that I can discern
Rags cancels peace but seems more interested in settling ice fields west of SF
Free Religion has been adopted by several AIs
The West has PPress and a tech lead over other AIs
Emerald City is indeed westernmost island
Have a GG that I would put in NK, but await discussion

T172:
Trade Paper to Ragnar for 130 gold and wheat for 8gpt
Relationship with Rags goes to cautious

T173:
Note North now has Open Borders with the South

T175:
Get GS in Phily (rats) [Have done nothing with it. Perhaps should at least incorporate one GS into NK. Please comment.]
Declare war and land forces in England

T176:
Indian revolt in Bombay [What is the danger of losing city at end of this new anarchy?]
Take Hastings and York, lose a treb in both fights

T177:
Bad RNG luck results in loss of both a treb and a cur trying unsuccessfully to take Necastle

T178:
Withdraw from Newcastle for now but advance on London

T179:
Agra expands, further limiting Bombay
Take Canterbury
London’s culture only reduces 4% (100% to 96%) from treb bombardment. Why? Is there a BTS tactic for dealing with this?

For discussion . . .
Will be in a position next turn to found southern coastal city that Hawk brought up again and build wkbts for it in NY. Opinions on this?
War weariness is going to become a problem soon, and planning on Civic changes then – Advice?
Do we want to capture Warwick and build a canal/fort SE of the city or raze it and use our settler?

Would like to try and finish turn set in about 12 hours, hopefully with the English war well in hand and perhaps before have to change civics

Save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306821&stc=1&d=1321169747

 

[The-Hawk]

Report for Turns 172 to 179 – won’t bore you with too many details

Gradually conquering England (now has knights)
Moving cautiously and pillaging roads to cut off reinforcements
The East has not declared on us or shown signs of doing so that I can discern
Rags cancels peace but seems more interested in settling ice fields west of SF
Free Religion has been adopted by several AIs
The West has PPress and a tech lead over other AIs
Emerald City is indeed westernmost island Never trust a mapmaker I assume we will work a caravel over to see what units we are dealing with? I would think there is a chance one of the other AIs will kill them as well.
Have a GG that I would put in NK, but await discussion Might be worth building a second super medic for our second front. Will settling him in NK give us an additional promotion?
T172:
Trade Paper to Ragnar for 130 gold and wheat for 8gpt
Relationship with Rags goes to cautious

T173:
Note North now has Open Borders with the South

T175:
Get GS in Phily (rats) [Have done nothing with it. Perhaps should at least incorporate one GS into NK. Please comment.] We now have 2 GS. Might save one for a GA, but the other should be used. Settling him into NK makes sense to me.
Declare war and land forces in England

T176:
Indian revolt in Bombay [What is the danger of losing city at end of this new anarchy?] Urgh, was afraid of this. No idea how much risk. But not much we can do about it.
Take Hastings and York, lose a treb in both fights

T177:
Bad RNG luck results in loss of both a treb and a cur trying unsuccessfully to take Necastle

T178:
Withdraw from Newcastle for now but advance on London

T179:
Agra expands, further limiting Bombay
Take Canterbury
London’s culture only reduces 4% (100% to 96%) from treb bombardment. Why? Is there a BTS tactic for dealing with this? She probably has walls, a castle, or both. They really slow cats and trebs down. The best answer for them is cannon (gunpowder negates them). They will not affect our Curs either.

For discussion . . .
Will be in a position next turn to found southern coastal city that Hawk brought up again and build wkbts for it in NY. Opinions on this? I think so... we need to maintain some tech pace or we will fall behind.
War weariness is going to become a problem soon, and planning on Civic changes then – Advice? At some point, we can cancel some trades to get our resources back. However, I would wait until happiness is pretty dire, we need the gpt. RE: civics. I am thinking we stay in Repre and Caste. We have a long way to go to dom limits, will need to take on two more AI teams after North. These 2 vs 1 wars are a chore, I don't think curs and trebs will get us there. We are going to need to keep researching. At this point, FM looks to be better than Merch. I wonder if we should consider free religion at some point, just for the extra happy potential?
Do we want to capture Warwick and build a canal/fort SE of the city or raze it and use our settler? I would raze it and rebuild SE. This allows it to use the fish.

Would like to try and finish turn set in about 12 hours, hopefully with the English war well in hand and perhaps before have to change civics

Save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=306821&stc=1&d=1321169747

Mali will give constitution and gold for Miltrad. I would make this trade. Constitution will open up Corporations which will give us a trade route. Also Democracy which we will eventually need.

Our economy is pretty crappy right now. I think that when you feel you have Liz under control, you should start building some CH's in our more remote cities.

Might want to keep a scout out in front of SF. I would imagine Khan will be sending some units somewhere. My best guess is he will head for SF.

 

[leif erikson]

Agree with GG becoming a supermedic.

Perhaps we should send a Galleon to Emerald City full of our best units? The travel time is exceedingly long? Although it doesn't mater how OZ dies, we could trade Astronomy to someone and see if they kill him?

The GS will bulb about 60% of Scientific Method. Given our tech rate and economy, think we might need all the beakers we can get?

Chance of revolt in Bombay is 5.25%. Over 20 turns, it is most likely going to flip. We can accept it or plan to go after Agra? Not very good choices.

Agree London has Walls and Castle. Tough for non-gunpowder units.

Agree with raze Warwick and rebuild to take advantage of Fish.

At some point, we can cancel some trades to get our resources back. However, I would wait until happiness is pretty dire, we need the gpt. RE: civics. I am thinking we stay in Repre and Caste. We have a long way to go to dom limits, will need to take on two more AI teams after North. These 2 vs 1 wars are a chore, I don't think curs and trebs will get us there. We are going to need to keep researching. At this point, FM looks to be better than Merch. I wonder if we should consider free religion at some point, just for the extra happy potential?

Do agree with Free Market. Problem will become whether we have citizens to work tiles due to WW. Police State will provide -50% to WW (will probably get back the 3 happy faces due to change from Rep at some point) and, coupled with Free Religion, we can get something back on research and a plus one happy face for other religions (Judaism atm in core.). Maybe Police State, Free Market and Free Religion?

Mali will give constitution and gold for Miltrad. I would make this trade. Constitution will open up Corporations which will give us a trade route. Also Democracy which we will eventually need.

Why not trade with Aztecs? For Military Tradition, they will give Constitution, WM plus 190 Gold?

Our economy is pretty crappy right now. I think that when you feel you have Liz under control, you should start building some CH's in our more remote cities.

Yes, we may have to build some Courthouses.

Might want to keep a scout out in front of SF. I would imagine Khan will be sending some units somewhere. My best guess is he will head for SF.

He has Open Borders with Zulu and Aztecs, so might come around that way.

 

[The-Hawk]

Perhaps we should send a Galleon to Emerald City full of our best units? The travel time is exceedingly long? Although it doesn't mater how OZ dies, we could trade Astronomy to someone and see if they kill him? I think our best units need to work on Liz and Khan. We can collect Oz later if an AI doesn't take care of it for us.

The GS will bulb about 60% of Scientific Method. Given our tech rate and economy, think we might need all the beakers we can get? I thought about this too. Just doesn't seem like a real useful tech.

Chance of revolt in Bombay is 5.25%. Over 20 turns, it is most likely going to flip. We can accept it or plan to go after Agra? Not very good choices. Once we get Grens and maybe cannon, we need to get back after Asoka. If it flips, does Bombay get all its culture back? If so, we might lose Payaga too.

Do agree with Free Market. Problem will become whether we have citizens to work tiles due to WW. Police State will provide -50% to WW (will probably get back the 3 happy faces due to change from Rep at some point) and, coupled with Free Religion, we can get something back on research and a plus one happy face for other religions (Judaism atm in core.). Maybe Police State, Free Market and Free Religion? Yep, switching all 3 at once saves a turn of anarchy. Just hate leaving repre so soon. Of course PS provides a big boost in unit production as well, so maybe it would be best.


Why not trade with Aztecs? For Military Tradition, they will give Constitution, WM plus 190 Gold?

Doh! Yes, Aztecs would be much better.

 

[Htadus]

Good progress CP. It seem that we may be able to keep Diplo option open still. It require us changing few civics to determine the affects of those civs. I am busy today but take a look at the info page.

If we are not going to use whips, hang on to the GS until last minute before bulbing to get the most science out of him.

Arent we very close to a GM? we could use it for a GA and run more merchants to get another GM for a trade mission.

 

[leif erikson]

I think our best units need to work on Liz and Khan. We can collect Oz later if an AI doesn't take care of it for us.

Yes, it can wait.

I thought about this too. Just doesn't seem like a real useful tech

It is the gateway to Communism (State Property) and Physics (Airship and Artillery). The way we're going, may need them both.

Once we get Grens and maybe cannon, we need to get back after Asoka. If it flips, does Bombay get all its culture back? If so, we might lose Payaga too.

Do not think there is much doubt we'll need to do this.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Appreciate all the discusion. Here is my take:

Will make trade with Aztecs.

Settling GG in NK will give 9 experience to non-mounted units, allowing us to produce triple trebs and maces (can be upgraded to powerful grens) there. Prefer that to another supermedic.

We'll definitely need grens. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but thinking that, once we have them, we can draft them if in Nationhood. Therefore, continued teching is going to be necessary, which means we need to stay in Caste (and probably Rep) for a while longer. When WW gets bad, like switching to Theo, Nationhood, and Free Market.

Will build new city west of NY.

Settling GS in NK.

Will raze Warwick.

Will scout for Mongols in Shaka territory. (Thanks . . . had not thought of that.)

Going to test what happens when we put all our production (except in Wash, where getting bonus from HE) into research while teching at 100%.

Going to look at attacking Asoka as soon as can start bringing units back from England.

What will happen to units inside Bombay if city flips? Really like to know this ASAP.

We are about 15 turns away from a likely GM.

Going to play again in about 2 hours.

 

[leif erikson]

What will happen to units inside Bombay if city flips? Really like to know this ASAP.

Just tried testing this for the last half hour and cannot get the city to flip?

Place a city of ours with 10 units (Maces, Cuirassier and Cats) in the middle of three Asoka cities (3 to 5 tiles apart) and then added 50,000 culture to two of the cites and 25,000 to the last. Played on 45 turns, do you think that city would flip.

I thought they got teleported but cannot remember as they could also be destroyed, as in killed by the mobs in the anarchy?

Then went looking in the strategy section but not could find anything about what happens to units.

Sorry, ran out of time. No answer?

 

[The-Hawk]

I tried to test this as well.

First test, all random settings. Created a city far from my capital, surrounded it with 6 Gandhi cities. Gave 2 of them 1,000,000 culture. Damn city would not flip. After like 250 turns, Shaka DOW'd and captured it!!!

Turns out the first test was on noble. Next test, played it on deity and chose friendly AI's. This created more meaningful pressure and less chance a psycho AI would mess up my test. City had 5 warriors and 2 workers in it. When the city flipped, they all teleported back towards my capital.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks much for your hard work, but now can you tell me if number of units in the city influences probability of flipping and, if so, to what extent?

BTW, looked at tech chart and note that MT (with Gunpowder) will give AI curs, plus help them to Cavalry with rifles. Just don't think we need the gold that badly and can reconsider when only one AI is left to make the trade with.

Also, am I correct about grens from Nationhood draft?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Tested turning production into research and research went from 391 beakers to 588, so that is something we may want to do after we get Chem and added hammers from wkshops.

Playing now, but will check back frequently.

 

[The-Hawk]

I think the number of units does impact chance of revolt, but not sure. In any event, it probably is taken into account when the % chance to revolt is calculated. So I assume Leif's math would have that factored in already.

RE: Building research... probably better to build wealth and run slider higher/longer. Built research does not get modifiers (library, academy).

 

[leif erikson]

Yes, number of units in a city does affect chances of flipping and I can help with that, if you don't mind reading a bit. The article is for vanilla, but the concept is most likely very similar.

Get some coffee and give it a read.

If you look at the city screen, where it has the bars in the lower left for city ownership, mousing over will tell you the chance of revolt. You can watch it change as you add units. Gonna need a lot of them me thinks.

edit -

I tried to test this as well.

First test, all random settings. Created a city far from my capital, surrounded it with 6 Gandhi cities. Gave 2 of them 1,000,000 culture. Damn city would not flip. After like 250 turns, Shaka DOW'd and captured it!!!

My test was at Immortal and it would not flip. Glad to see I wasn't the only one frustrated. Thankfully, you got yours to go.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks, again.

London is ours, but RL intervenes and I won't be abe to finish the set and post report until late tonight.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Report for Turns 179 to 183 (1230 AD) -- England will be ours in a few more turns

T179:
Implement plans from thread discussion

IBT:
Aztecs ask politely for MT, which is refused

T180:
Take London at cost of 2 trebs and cur

IBT:
Good West completes Taj

T181:
Note West apparently now has Democracy

IBT:
Uneventful

T182:
Bombay out of anarchy, loosing citizens
Raze Newcastle and take Nottingham with no losses

IBT:
Chem>MS

T183:
Advance toward last English cities
Prepare for player and Civics changes

Getting late, so will get sleep and comment in about 10 hours

Save is from Central: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm14/Xteam_SG014_AD1230_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work CP.

Some tough going in that set. Made a lot of progress though.

Roster:
Mad Professor - UP
leif - On Deck
DJMGator13
-Asterix-
Htadus
The-Hawk
Cactus Pete

Hope MP has been following?

Off to look at the save.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Comments and Suggestions (in no priority):

3 units have been left with movement to give knowledge to MP, or whoever goes next.
(1)The worker south of Oxford is stopped to reveal Indian sword, but needs to be moved this turn to the deer tile, so that next turn he can move onto the ice and see what is in Oxford.
(2)The spy near Bombay is revealing Asoka’s hidden units in Agra – 3 knights, 8 cats, etc. – and can be moved one tile south to reveal the Indian capital. When I sailed by all 4 of Asoka’s southern cities with caravel#1, several turns ago, none of the cities had heavy defenses or multiple attack units like Agra (and best guess is that there are not many more in the fog).
(3)Worker#4, near Ujjain, has been moving onto the tundra from the forest and back each turn to detect any advancing Viking units. (He has only seen a very few, usually accompanying a settler, but there seems to be a Viking city on the plains 2SW of that worker where there could be an accumulation of units.)

If we do not switch out of Pacifism quickly, we will likely get a GS from NK instead of a GM from Phily (Unless we sacrifice Phily’s population, which I advocate against at this point.) Like switching this turn or next turn.

We can still change 3 Civics in 2 turns, so suggest switching to Theo, Free Market, and Nationhood. This will generate more gold from trade routes, including from the English cities that are about to come out of anarchy, and Theo will replace Vassalage in all of our major unit-producing cities. Moreover, it will allow us to draft musketeers, especially in Bombay, but also in Prayaga and elsewhere as needed.

Would argue that we should stay in Caste and Rep until we have a GM (or a non-GS out of Phily) and have learned MS, allowing us to draft grens.
I should have begun building commerce in Chicago, instead of a treb, as units from there will be slow to the front, we need to get to MS, and expect maintenance to increase significantly as English cities come on line. So, suggest that change be made immediately.

Turning production into science and/or commerce is pretty powerful (used it for a turn to get to Chem quicker) but don’t think we can afford to lose much production until we have sufficient units to deal with the South.

Have given some thought as to how best to proceed in India, which should certainly be done sooner than later:

Need to ASAP pillage the ivory near Ujjain, but cat attacks are the biggest problem, and tactics should revolve around minimizing their effect. Unless spy finds many more attacking units in the fog (he can move onto the plans hill 4S of Bombay next turn, if he survives, and reveal much of the hidden Indian territory), we should be able to defend Bombay and Prayaga while attacking.

Muskets can be promoted to guerilla2, giving them double movement on hills, which will allow us to move musket and cur, plus WE now in galley and possibly additional units, onto windmill hill 2N of Bangalore to pillage windmill and cut road the following turn thereby preventing cat attack from that direction.

When we declare, two units from Prayaga should move onto copper and be prepared to pillage it and the road if units advance toward the city.

There are a number of ways to go after Agra, including trying to sacrifice units to get Asoka to burn his cats – muskets and cur on the gold hill, for example – but the next player can puzzle that out.

Some units left on ships, especially galleon, will give considerable flexibilty to their deployment.

We need to get two workers into Prayaga area soon, so that we can build a road back quickly when needed.

Finally, would strongly urge that sets be no more than ten turns, or less, from here on. There are a growing number of cities and units to deal with. The first several turns of war against India, especially, should not go quickly.

 

[Mad Professor]

Nice work CP.

Some tough going in that set. Made a lot of progress though.

Roster:
Mad Professor - UP
leif - On Deck
DJMGator13
-Asterix-
Htadus
The-Hawk
Cactus Pete

Hope MP has been following?

Off to look at the save.

Yes, I've been following the discussion Leif, but RL has prevented me from spending much time gazing at saves right at the moment. This week is not good. If I am to play the next turn set I wouldn't be able to put much in until next week. It might be a good idea if there was one more turn set before I have another go. If you drop me down one place in the list that would suit me well I think.

 

[leif erikson]

Yes, I've been following the discussion Leif, but RL has prevented me from spending much time gazing at saves right at the moment. This week is not good. If I am to play the next turn set I wouldn't be able to put much in until next week. It might be a good idea if there was one more turn set before I have another go. If you drop me down one place in the list that would suit me well I think.

Sorry to hear you've been so busy. I'll switch with you then.

for getting back to us so quickly.

Updated Roster:
leif - UP
Mad Professor - On Deck
DJMGator13
-Asterix-
Htadus
The-Hawk
Cactus Pete

Got to get TSG24 for Civ5 out tomorrow, then I'll have some time.

 

[Htadus]

I just got done with the Stark BOTM and I will be able to add some comments/counter comments.