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SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

Okay, that's encouraging. There are a lot of options to test, including BW and some chopping/whipping thrown into the mix. We really need 3 more settlers asap to connect up the marble also, plus some number of workers and a couple more fogbusters. We dodged two bullets with the butt-naked Hammy warrior surviving the lion and the Toku warrior surviving a potential double onslaught.

xpost: Okay, I'll make another tentative Test Save, meaning just for REX purposes, no Toku added yet, since we still don't know the map coordinates.

This TEST SAVE incorrectly has 132/156b AH. The REAL SAVE only has 130/156b AH. Either way it's done in 2t.
 

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I forgot to say good job on the last set. It could have gone very badly with the barbs.

Is it possible to delete a river segment or two for the final turn and replay it to get the beakers right? Did we meet an AI in the test game giving us bonus beakers? I had to delete a work boat to avoid meeting an AI in my test runs.

If we don't do this, we could end up learning a critical tech a turn later in the real game messing up some critical MM that needed said tech.
 
Mitchum, we're guessing anyway, because different map coordinates immediately give different maintenance costs. Of the two possibilities we were looking at, highland and global highland, one gives 2gpt and the other 3gpt for Gems City as our 2nd city. I was planning to play two more turns to know the coords, but I forgot that we have to decide on the next build now. So...

Testing is basically big picture right now. What gets us the cities up and runnign fastest? Is there a way that's significantly faster? Is there a way that gets us COnstruction faster or SH/GW failed gold better? Is ther a clever way to handle the worker turns? Etc.
 
Another way to think of it is that we'll all test against the same test save. So we're looking at comparative results. As for the real thing, later on, we'll try to get that all squared away in 2t.
 
Ok. Another wrinkle is that knowing where horses are could throw a good portion of our testing out the window. I guess when testing, I'll try to take note of techs I learn with very little excess beakers/gold to know possible sticky points to iron out later.
 
High-level things to ponder/discuss:

How valuable is early Construction in this scenario? I think we agree that it looks pretty stong. But how valuable is it if we have no supporting army other than a handful of warriors and cities with low popultions and no granaries? How long will it take us to build/chop/whip an army of cats and chariots/axes large enough to take Kyoto? Since it's possible that we're not ready to start cranking out cats when we get Construction around 1200 BC, does it make sense to Oracle some other tech and self research Contruction? Or, should we just skip the Oracle, grow our cities, build granaries and an army of axes/chariots while we self-tech Construction and then chop/whip six to ten cats in 3 to 5 turns? Which option gets our army sooner and leaves our cities in better shape to continue cranking out units?

Should we make a run at the Pryamids? With stone, it is tempting. Being Spritual would allow us to slip into Representation when we need research or Police State when we need to crank out units. I could see this game having an initial research phase to axes/chariots/cats, hopefully a quick warring phase while we take out one or both of Toku/Hambi to get access to the rest of the world, and then another phase of research where we tech/bulb our way to Maces/trebs or Astronomy. Having both Representation and Police State at our disposal would be nice...
 
Before I hop on my plane, my initial testing will along the lines of:

Settle the eastern gold city at Gold-1E, grow to two pops working the improved sheep. Stay at two pops building workers/settlers working sheep and a gold mine. This frees up the worker to connect this city to the capital and then aid with the other cities. Possibly grow to four pops and whip a library for border expansion and bonus beakers. This library may not be worth the early hammers. If we have horses/copper, this city could also get a head start on our army and/or build the Oracle.

Settle the northern gold city at Gold-1W. Mine the gold and stay at 1 pop, working the gold mine non-stop for faster research. If it doesn't need to grow, this city can build workers/settlers. This city could also grow to two pops working the unimproved deer. My current thinking is to skip Hunting until we have the Construction sling completed. Now that we don't need Hunting for the pre-req hammers on AH, I see it as a drain on our early research needs.

Settle Gems-1N, grow on a pig pasture and then work the gems mine.

Settle Marble with the mable in the inner ring. Have the city pre-connected to Delhi and improve the marble within 2 turns of settling it (4 workers?). On the turn the marble is quarried, we learn Math and finish 2 pre-chopped forests to complete the Oracle, taking Construction on the next turn. We could also complete the Oracle a turn sooner (and settle the city sooner). I guess it depends on how much of a drain settling that fifth city has on our research.

Tech path will be something like AH -> TW -> Writing -> BW -> Masonry -> PH -> Math. I hate skipping Pottery but with all of the settlers and workers needed, I'm not sure when we'd build granaries anyway.

Feel free to shoot holes in this approach. I'm just dumping my thoughts before I'm out of pocket for 36ish hours.

EDIT: I think I need to also run a test with Hunting to see how much it improves the flexibility of the northern gold city and what its impacts are on worker micro and research.
 
I've played out a test to a 1360 Oracle (1320 Constr.) with the three mining resources, no hunting, no marble city, no BW, early Priesthood, no GS, and Oracle in the toku border city.
I feel like I want to ReX more than this - I'll see if I can manage a 6-city sling at a comparable date.
 
Mitchum said:
How valuable is early Construction in this scenario?
The answer, in my opinion, is that it depends upon the existence of at least one Strategic Resource, preferably Copper or Horse.

Catapults can't kill in BtS, so we need Axemen, Chariots, or Swordsmen to actually kill off the defending AI Archers.

One other possibility is to try and Oracle Feudalism. However, there are no Vassals allowed as per the game's settings, thus we might just end up speeding the AIs' path toward Longbowmen.

When it comes down to it, really early Longbowmen + Cats are decent, since the Longbowmen can go up the Drill line by winning easy battles early on and then continue to win battles later due to all ... but since we aren't Protective, we'd be stuck with Drill I and Drill II for our first promos, which are pretty terrible. Thus, I'd rather have Swordsmen than Longbowmen.

Self-teching Iron Working and Oracling Construction is cheaper than self-teching Construction and Oracling Feudalism... although the real value of Longbowmen would come in if we had ZERO Strategic Resources and were "walled in" by Peaks and Tokus.


Since we're likely to learn Animal Husbandry and Bronze Working before we build The Oracle, we can try and make a judgement call before building The Oracle based on which, if any, Strategic Resources are available to us.

It is likely that if we have zero Strategic Resources, a team that manages to take down Toku's Peak-surrounded City will do a lot better than the teams who don't do so.

Catapults and Archers won't cut it, so without Strategic Resources, Feudalism is something that we'd just have to bite the bullet and research.

I forget, but I think that you still need Writing in order to tech Feudalism, right?



Mitchum said:
How long will it take us to build/chop/whip an army of cats and chariots/axes large enough to take Kyoto?
Well, it will help if we skip building Granaries and skip building any more Libraries than just a single one (for a possible Math Lightbulb due to being Philosophical).

Pre-Chopping some Forests to go into Catapult builds would also be of use.

Generally, a good Catapult rush has us stopping REX when we have a Settler for our 4th City.

That way, you have time to grow your Cities and to possibly build a couple of Barracks.

Ideally, you'll be able to whip and Chop some Catapults (and/or other units) in your first 3 Cities and Chop some more in your 4th City.


So, our settling locations would be geared more toward the short term than the long term.

For example, we might settle an area with several Forests as a priority.

I still like Gold-1E and Pig-2E for their Resources and their Forests.

Marble by the Crab + Banana isn't very hot in terms of the number of Forests, but Marble on the Plains square by the Fish, which has some Forests, would require a Cultural Border expansion before we could even start working on the Marble.

We might not even want to settle a Marble City, but if we did, I'd probably say settle it to get the Fish + Marble if we manage to build Stonehenge, then be prepared to wait a while for our Marble to come online.

If we're going for an early Catapult rush, we won't care so much about Great Person pool pollution from the Great Prophet Wonders (Stonehenge and Oracle) all that much, as we'll be unlikely to spam a ton of Great Scientists and if we do, we can likely spam them from captured AI Cities a lot more easily than from our own Cities.

Of course, Forest Chops going into 2 Wonders means less Forests for Catapults, but so be it.


Stonehenge
I got to thinking about Stonehenge, and it WILL be valuable if we plan to go conquesting the AIs (for Domination or a Religious Victory). How come? Well, every initial AI City will start with a Religion and we're likely to see Buddhism being spread even further as a result. We're stuck in Hinduism, so we can't get Culture from Religions.

Normally, you eventually stop building Monuments because you can run Free Religion or No State Religion and count on the fact that captured Cities will have their Cultural Borders expand thanks to the precense of a Religion. Here, we can't count on that fact, so those Monuments actually become valuable mid-game, making them more useful than in an average game where you could just get that same Cultural expansion from running No State Religion without any extra effort.


The Deer + Gold location isn't particularly strong, anyway--it's decent but not top-of-the-line... the same could be said about the Marble location but at least the Marble location helps with expanding our Cultural Borders and gets us Marble.

I would be happy to wait on building the Deer + Gold location until after our initial rush captures us an AI City or two. Of course, Hammurabi could come in and settle the Gold in a poor location, or settle the Deer such that it misses the Gold, but if we're going to rush with Catapults, going for 5 Cities really starts to push things--it can probably be done thanks to us having Fast Workers (thus meaning that more Forest Chops than normal will be possible), but still, it's pushing it to go for 5 Cities before rushing and we should definitely not plan for a 6th City until much later.

Skipping the Deer + Gold location until later also lets us avoid Hunting for longer, too.


Mitchum said:
Should we make a run at the Pryamids?
Sure, but perhaps a half-hearted attempt, started only after we have successfully captured at least one AI capital.

If we get our war momentum going, we can always consider trying to capture The Pyramids should they get built elsewhere. If they can't be captured, then so be it--we'll just be using the base Hammers in units first instead of base Hammers going into The Pyramids and then using bonus Hammers from Police State to, over time, make up for the lack of units due to having spent our Hammers on The Pyramids.

I'm no longer convinced about going for intentional Failure Gold, since a Catapult rush is really Hammer-intensive. If we're going to be happy with pausing our REX at 4 Cities total (including our capital), then we won't really be incurring huge Maintenance Costs anyway.

Later, we can try for The Pyramids and optionally end up getting Failure Gold for it (not intentionally, but you take what you can get).


The real trick is not how many Cities we can have but how well we can set up whips and Forest growth at the time of learning Construction. A 5th or 6th City sounds good in theory but would be unlikely to repay the investment cost of the Settler unless we have a ton of excess Worker actions and Forests to Chop. Having those Gold and Gem Resources could throw off the balance a little bit.

Also, we don't have Fishing for Fish or Crab, nor do we have Calendar for Banana, so skipping a Marble City like ZPV seems to be suggesting could also be a viable approach--sure The Oracle would cost more without Marble but it will also cost us less to build The Oracle without Marble in the short run than to build another Settler for the Marble City.

So, a very viable option could be to settle the 2 Gold locations and the Gem location and then completely forget about the Marble location.

Obviously, a Horse or Copper Resource appearing somewhere could change things, but assuming that those Resources don't appear near Marble City, then Marble City is, admittedly, not going to be a very strong early City--but nor will the northern Gold location really be.

The Gem City location will be strong if we settle Pig-1E and give up on some production capability from Grassland Hills relative to settling Pig-2E, but I still wouldn't mind settling Pig-2E if we can complete Stonehenge somewhere.
 
Some early conclusions:

1) In Gold-sheep city, we definitely improve the gold first. That makes for only six turns not working a goldmine, as we grow. Spending the extra turn to finish the FP farm doesn't change this, so we should do this too.
2) Growing to size 3 or 4 takes 16-18 turns to pay off in terms of food-hammers into workers/settlers. We should do this right away (with a 1-turn delay to finish the farm) or not at all (for quite a while). There isn't a convenient moment after this, since the sequence that works best after it is Settler-Worker-Settler, with the first settler going to the northern gold, and then the worker improving the gold and then gems.
 
Now that's what I call a mountain of text, Dhoom. Will we find it somewhere in our path? :p

1) Feudalism? Really? If that's the answer, then surely we're asking the wrong question, and should rather cottage up and turtle to the middle ages.
2) Marble city might be worthwhile - I just haven't tried it yet. It saves us up to 75 hammers in Oracle costs, and very nearly pays for itself in terms of commerce, as soon as it can work the marble. (1c city centre, 1c trade route, 3c quarry).
3) We need the northern gold, and gems in the first rings of their cities, for research. We don't need Hunting for it...
4) We have more pre-rush hammers than a normal game. Extra cities won't bankrupt us; we just need to decide whether we think they're going to pay off before "forever". Cow+Deer is a case in point - does it get off the ground quickly enough to justify its cost? Do we have the hammers for it anyway?
 
Imo, Northern GOld+Deer is the best site available right now because 1) it works better for worker-turns (the worker is comfortably free to mine G1E just when the settler gets there on T42) and 2) GoldN+Deer is instantly connected to Delhi for 2 TRs. Problem is, Toku's building a settler and we don't know where it's headed. Since we already opted for AH, I guess we still settle G1E first. So that leaves us with the worker-turn riddle.

1. The worker could just mine two golds, building the NGold settler immediately.
2. The worker could mineG-pastSheep, then mine NGold with:
a. Immediately built NG settler growing to pop2 first,
b. Delhi building 2 more warriors and growing to pop4, and NG working gold at pop1.
3. Something else...

Fogbusting is one thing we need to keep in mind. I haven't devoured the Demo Screen data so I don't know how many cities there are worldwide yet, but it surely won't be long before barbs start popping up. As irksome as it is, we'd probably be wise to build a couple more busters to pre-empt spawning.

Some more factors to consider:
0. We don't necessarily need TW soon!?! :crazyeye:
a) Roading won't significantly speed up settling.
b) Our fast workers are...fast :)
c) Settling G-N gives us 2 TRs, so roads only add 2gpt with Gems and G1E.
1. Our cities are primed for whipping because they don't need more than 2-3 citizens full-time.
2. Gems and Gold-N don't really need border expansion.
3. We'll probably have to research all techs we need.
4. We probably won't get any foreign TRs, at least not before we meet more AIs.
5. #3+#4 have unusual consequrences for this scenario:
a) Failed gold is significantly more valuable than usual.
b) Our philo trait means bulbing math (if we want to sling constr) gives excellent synergy with REXing and filling in the early techs.

I'm not sure how to put that all together, but I think there's a powerful strategy avaiable to be hatched. We could research BW next, enabling Delhi to whip the Gems settler and/or a worker. Somehow, I'd like to see us research masonry for failed gold, which would immediately pay back in faster research, except that we don't know when we'll get it. And I'd like to see us reserach writing soon after BW so we could poprush a library and start work 2 sci.

So that's my 2 cents. I think someone needs to study the Demo Screen data so I'll take that on while you guys are hopefully doing some more testing.
 
I was thinking about Gold-north as well. The fact that it connects immediately to Delhi is a big advantage. Ignoring Tokugawa's settling location, teams that went Hunting -> AH and settle Gold-north will have an advantage over us with respect to early commerce/research. How can we turn skipping Hunting into an advantage? Do we continue ignoring Hunting, thus getting each following tech a bit sooner?

Agree with LC on spawn-busting... especially in our back yard in the SW.

I have more to say but it will have to wait. Typing on my phone is painful.
 
OK. I'm back on my computer so I can type more than 6 words/minute. Some random thoughts based on my testing so far:

1. In the real game, we had a Toku scout disappear to the north and a Hamb scout disappear to the east. To my knowledge, they have not come back yet. Does this imply that there is a way to get past Toku and/or Hamb? Or did they actually come back LC?

2. Now that we've killed two lions, I expect two more barbs to spawn in their place. Let's hope that they are lions and not warriors/archers. Maybe we can prevent them from spawning where we don't want them.

3. We don't need The Wheel, but it is good to speed up our settling (not by a lot but a turn or two). It will also speed up the movement of our army when we have one. I'd rather have the roads built before we need to start moving our troops. It is the only way to hook up Gold East and Gems to our capital, which could be important if we want to build any stone/marble-enhanced wonders there. Finally, it keeps the workers busy while they wait for a city to be settled (this is a minor issue but having roads helps with the issues stated earlier).

4. As ZPV said, we have a lot of excess early production. I found myself building things that we didn't need, like multiple libraries and such. The fact that production isn't an issue early on makes me think that we can put of BW for some time if we need to... What should we do with these early hammers? Fail gold? Build an army if we have a strategic resource? Build wonders?

5. I agree that any city that has the marble resource in its inner ring is of marginal short-term value. So, if the Oracle is the only wonder we're going for and if we don't plan to settle Marble soon, we could consider skipping Masonry. This should speed up our Oracle sling since research, not production, is our current bottleneck. In other words, having marble takes 100 food-hammers for a settler and 10+ worker turns to quarry and hook up the marble. This effort only saves 75 hammers on the Oracle. Is it worth it this early in the game? However, we want to take a run at the GW or Pyramids or get some failure gold, then Masonry starts to make some sense.

6. Since research is the bottleneck, I'd put a higher priority on Writing and early libraries than BW.

7. I'm not sure that bulbing Math makes sense, especially given the fact that we have gold x2 and gems. Since we will most likely have to self-research a lot of techs as LC said, does it make more sense to either build an Academy or to use the GSs on more expensive techs?


Regarding testing, I ran a test settling East Gold, North Gold, Gems and Marble. My tech path was AH -> TW -> Hunting -> Writing -> BW -> Masonry -> PH -> Math. All cities are at 4 pops other than marble, which is at 1 pop. I built 3 libraries and 2 barracks because I didn't have anything else to build while growing... I think this date is too late and I wasn't too happy with it. I plan on running another test now skipping both Hunting and Masonry and not settling Marble.
 
Just ran another test seeing what happens if we skip Masonry... and then realized that it is a pre-req for Contruction. :blush: I did pull off a nice Currency sling in 1200 BC though. :mischief:

In this save, I also skipped Hunting and Gold North is a pretty weak city at 1 pop working just the gold mine. I started building a setter right away thinking it could be used for Gems and it's still not done! If we plan to skip Hunting, I'm thinking that settling Gems before Gold North could be a better option, as long as we're not worried about losing that spot.

After running 4 tests, I think we need to clarify our goal. Is it the earliest Construction date possible? Is it having 4 decent-sized cities when we get Construction so that we can actually take advantage of it? Although, the later Construction date will of course have bigger, more developed cities because they will have had more turns to grow...

Is anyone else planning to run any tests?

One more point, I'm leaning toward building a warrior next in Delhi for spawn busting in the SW. This finishes on the turn we grow to 3 pops. At that point, we could build another warrior and grow to 4 pops or just start building workers and settlers at size 3. If we all agree that building at least one warrior next makes sense, then LC could play forward two or three more turns which would reveal where the horses are and what our maintenance costs will be. This will make our testing more relevant, especially if there are horses near Delhi or Gold East.

I think the chances of having horses and copper in our area are pretty high, otherwise most teams would have trouble fighting through the Toku brothers.
 
Don't forget we can't just decide to delay the Oracle slingshot indefitinely. Wonderwhorawa might have a say in that too. Maybe there are nine Awas, maybe not. Maybe the AI team is Qin+Gandhi or some such. So it's not just a matter of deciding to slingshot COnstr when our cities are mature and ready to mobilize.
 
It feels to me like getting the tech path right is more important than fiddling around inserting a warrior here or there.
The two options are:
Lightbulb Maths.
Research Maths.
These play somewhat differently, and the critical paths are different.
For a lightbulb, we need to get 90 hammers into a Library somewhere reasonably soon.
For research, we need to avoid techs we don't need, and prioritize getting the three mining resources worked ASAP.
 
My assumption is that bulbing Math gets an earlier Construction sling at the expense of city development while self researching Math slows things down a bit giving time for cities to grow and workers to work.

I haven't played around with bulbing yet, but if we bulb Math, then we should have time to research things not the Construction beeline. What is the best Construction sling you've been able to get using this approach? My guess is that the critical path shifts from research to production (library + Oracle) in this scenario, right?

Does it make sense to settle the marble in this case, giving the bonus hammers on the Oracle? Or do we still settle gold x2 and gems before even thinking about settling somewhere else? I guess that depends on where the copper/horses are...

In my tests so far, I've been self-researching Math and I've had more production than I knew what to do with. These last two posts have gotten me to thinking that the earliest Construction date gives us something to do with all this early production... build catapults! :D Where do I sign?
 
@ZPV: I agree. To me, it's not about fiddling but rather examining basic possibilities wrt to research paths, worker-turns, and the Delhi builds. This automatically leads to the Delhi growth variant, which leads to 1-2 warrior builds. A loose barb archer can set us back many turns and even cost us a city, so if all other things are close to equal, then building the two warriors is a no-brainer. (In other words, that's one test I'd like to see.)
 
Demo screen data:

1. No new cities yet. 11 cities worldwide!
2. It looks like maybe 3-4 AIs have not been growing for some time, excluding Mahabodhi.
3. Mahabodhi has poprushed 3 times already, but hasn't settled a new city. What's he poprushing? Units?
4. At most 4 other players have completed BW, but none have poprushed.
5. The AI team has not completed BW (would show up as +16k on the power line, right?)
6. Toku's :culture: per turn increased by 1 on 3000BC, consistent with having a 1cpt building starting on 4000BC. So that would be a monument or a castle...
7. Toku's land increased 8/12 land tiles in his FC and then 11/16 tiles beyond that. That's a fair amount of water tiles.
8. Hammy's land increased 6/12, then 8/16, so Babylon is 50% coastal.
9. Toku and Hammy both researched another tech on T24, but only one at most could have been for 2k power and not Toku.
10. Toku's third citizen worked a 2f1h tile for 1 turn, then a 4f1h tile. His GNP graph also rose 1, so I think he's got pigs and sheep out in the parking lot, the primitive oaf.
11. Both threaten with archers/bowmen still.
 
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