SGOTM 15 - Xteam

[zamint3]

Agree with Hawk's testing, Wheel before BW But this means we get BW only shortly before we're ready to settle city 3.

Played on for a while building Oracle T65 in Bombay, this puts a lot of cultural pressure on Osaka (Japan), on T78 we got -1 for close border tension but nothing more (played until T100), he never got into WHEOOHRN mode. It seems he has some room for expansion in the test save, 6 cities at T100.

(I'll test BW first again, but I don't expect to do better.. )

 

[Htadus]

Hate to put in unqulified and paranoid comments, but just for disclosure, I would rather go BW before any other tech to see where the copper is now.

It does not matter how well we develop and how many worker turns a gained if we find one of the Gava's claim the only copper in the area. We need to be ready before they go WHEOOHRN with archers if need be. So that is my five cents. And it is more based on evil map maker thoughts than solid evidence.

 

[leif erikson]

Hate to put in unqulified and paranoid comments, but just for disclosure, I would rather go BW before any other tech to see where the copper is now.

It does not matter how well we develop and how many worker turns a gained if we find one of the Gava's claim the only copper in the area. We need to be ready before they go WHEOOHRN with archers if need be. So that is my five cents. And it is more based on evil map maker thoughts than solid evidence.

You are starting to sound like me...

This is a risk versus reward decision.

 

[Undecided]

Save 1:
I played until T57 with BW first. Probably not the best micro, but i also think that both approaches are a bit difficult to compare because we don't know where copper is in the real game. Went rest of warrior->worker->settler and would go with another worker instead of settler, mids, ToA.

Save 2:
I couldn't stop and tried to get oracle and forge as soon as possible. Got PHood on T64 and finished oracle on T66 in Bombay. Technically i needed 2 turns to completion but i used overflow hammers from a previous object to get it in one turn. After moving the workers in postion on T67 everybody is ready to chop the forge to completion on T68 which would mean running a specialist T69 and GE on T86.
I'm sure somebody could shave off 1 or 2 turns, i just wanted to see if i could get both buildings within 2 turns which should be the fastest possible.

 

[Mad Professor]

I’ve had a bit of a play with the test file. The big weakness of wheel before BW is in the event that we are attacked. Otherwise the wheel is better as our workers are far more productive in that case while we’re getting the next settler out. If Delhi completes current warrior then does a worker then settler, using the marble when it grows upon finishing the warrior, and if Bombay uses the gold mine as soon as it is completed next turn, we should get wheel plus BW the same turn as the settler is produced in Delhi (14 turns from now). If copper pops up, that allows us to settle it immediately if we really want to, especially if it’s within range of another nice looking city site.

I guess the question is how likely is an attack? I’m nervous about that like Htadus, though the lack of WHEOOHRN in the testing is encouraging. I’m inclined to take the risk. This gets us another worker sooner and some good roading done by the time BW is available – at which point workers would want to start pre-chopping at the proposed Oracle location.

By the way I notice that basically no further land exploration can be done before we get open borders with our neighbours and that will happen about when hell freezes over. I notice suspiciously well placed mountains clearly designed to keep us in, and I suspect we’re going to have to fight our way out.

So in summary, I’m proposing the following:
Delhi finishes warrior (3 turns, grows to size 5), then worker then settler, using marble when the city grows.
Bombay finishes warrior (4 turns), then start on Barracks
We study wheel then BW, getting both in 14 turns, using that gold mine ASAP.
Warrior explorers can reduce as much fog as possible to reduce interference by barbs.

I can then stop, at which point we can make a final decision about the location of the next city with knowledge of the location of copper, if any – I don’t even want to think about the next city location before I know where the copper is, or isn’t! At that point we will also be ready to begin some pre-chopping for the oracle, and move on to priesthood, to get oracle in about mid 60’s turn wise.

 

[Htadus]

You are starting to sound like me...

This is a risk versus reward decision.

It is also of optimal tech path. BW provide us multiple assets. Discovery of resource, the ability to chop and whip, and also it gives us more power. which is desired in this game to deter the yokals .

BTW I too ran some tests and I really do not see as Undecided noted how we can really test in any meaningful way without knowing if copper is accessibel. So it is going to come to a leap of faith in either case.

If we go with BW, the workers can do some pre chops, City can whip a settler or more. If we go with the wheel the workers can connect cities and our warriors can run around to get in tip top shape. Also we do get 2 extra research per turn when the cities are connected. So lets just choose the next tech. I am for BW.

BTW, I baraly loss any worker turns since there were hills to mine and river sides to farm. And it will only be for 5 additional turns, when TW came online.

Also lets fog planned city sites. I too had trouble with Barb city spawning near gold to north.

I just noted MP's Post.

just a comment. In 14 turns our current workers will still be busy improving available tiles. So that third worker is very important.

 

[Mad Professor]

I just noted MP's Post.

just a comment. In 14 turns our current workers will still be busy improving available tiles. So that third worker is very important.

I'll be looking to see if there are more opinions on the BW next or not thing...

Yes - one of the reasons I liked the wheel was that I think the worker next in Delhi before the settler was needed, and I was thinking that we needed BW before we settle the next city, but the urgency for other reasons for BW was less, so I was more happy to put in wheel first. Haven't tested the benefit of getting another whip in because BW came before wheel. That would be played against the workers running out of things to do because there are 3 of them...?

Edit: I think we have enough time to pre-chop for oracle while we're studying priesthood?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Will try to test and put in my two cents tomorrow. (RL's been demanding.)

 

[Mad Professor]

Hmm - yeah we can rex better in the short term by taking BW before wheel, but I'm not sure of the value of the worker turns meanwhile. I'd have to play tests for longer to see the difference. Haven't done that yet.

Edit: Under system 7 I have to open the file "as administrator" if I "want to submit" otherwise I get a message saying to proceed only if I do not want to submit the game. I presume that continuing on and playing a test when I get this message will not cause BUFFY to complain when I open the actual game file "as administrator"...? I don't think it would, but I thought I'd better check first...

Edit2: Another thought - surely someone could cheat under system 7 by opening the real game file NOT "as administrator" and play a few turns then go and play the game "as administrator" and submit? I HAVE NOT done this of course, but this seems to be a bit of a loop hole that might come up yes? Can someone tell me that such a cheat would not work?

 

[Htadus]

System 7? I am not familiar with the term.

However, I would say the startfile itself make a registry somewhere when opened and will be counted as being opened and used.

Above statement is not based on real knowlwdge.

 

[zamint3]

I always run the game as administrator and never had any problems.

As AlanH has stated many times: There are a lot ways you can cheat if you want to.
But where's the fun in that?

 

[leif erikson]

Edit2: Another thought - surely someone could cheat under system 7 by opening the real game file NOT "as administrator" and play a few turns then go and play the game "as administrator" and submit? I HAVE NOT done this of course, but this seems to be a bit of a loop hole that might come up yes? Can someone tell me that such a cheat would not work?

All I can say is that the staff would know if you played the save not as admin. It doesn't work like that.

Thinking more about TW versus BW, think we need to test a bit more. I wonder if we should, in the test save, restrict Toku east's ability to expand and see what his attitude does as the border crowds him?

 

[Undecided]

I wonder if we should, in the test save, restrict Toku east's ability to expand and see what his attitude does as the border crowds him?

I think that this would be a waste of time, as it is very safe to assume that Toku- it's already proven for Hammy- isn't running short on land available to him in the near future. You can see passable terrain to the east and the mountain ridge in the save continues to the east past the point where it also goes south. If these peaks continues straight south, it has to stop at some point because Toku's capital is in the way.
It could be possible that he is stuck in a corner down there, but this wouldn't make any sense from a mapmaker perspective. Of course, i never made a map for public consumption so i could be overlooking something.

 

[Mad Professor]

All I can say is that the staff would know if you played the save not as admin. It doesn't work like that.

You reassure me. I figured it was kinda easy and obvious and I am assuredly not the first to think of it, and I'm also sure that there are people out there with less scruples than me! It's nice to know they can't cheat that easily...

System 7? I am not familiar with the term.

Umm. Should have said "Windows 7". "System 7" would take you back to Apple in the early 90's...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Finally was able to do some testing. Prefer BW first because:

If there is no copper, we know that critical factor sooner and can research Archery.

Copper may already be in our cultural borders.

Worker turns are not wasted. Once gold was mined, I moved worker to marble and got that competed a turn earlier, then moved both workers to the flood plain to finish farming it as BW completes, finally moved both onto forest NE of city to chop forest (if copper within culture, obviously that's where at least one needs to go). Chop completes turn settler comes out, so put chop into another fast worker (which will complete same turn as Wheel is researched), and workers then able to accompany settler.

Also, may want to build a fast worker in Bombay after warrior completes. Worker will also complete same turn that Wheel is researched, so will be plenty for him to do. With roads to build and forests to chop, hard to get enough workers.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Here is the save at turn 53, if anyone wants to compare: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=313376&stc=1&d=1328767393

 

[Htadus]

Finally was able to do some testing. Prefer BW first because:

If there is no copper, we know that critical factor sooner and can research Archery.

The text in bold is my doing. This is the real reward for delaying TW, we get to make a plan based on real information. Like my favorite cat-archer rush. . I did this in the last game of the month. Just with quechas and cats. Pretty cool and actually did not need the Q at all.

 

[leif erikson]

If there is no copper, we know that critical factor sooner and can research Archery.

I agree with this.

Just wondering how much that will delay, or put in jeopardy, Oracle?

 

[The-Hawk]

If there is no copper, we know that critical factor sooner and can research Archery.

I guess this is all about risk. I think your point on Archery is a good one, but it comes with a price.

If I am interpreting your save correctly, you finished BW on turn 52. I finished it on turn 56. So we answer the copper question 4 turns early which means we can be building archers 4 turns earlier. You also will settle city 3 4 turns sooner, which might get pigs and gems online sooner (not sure since you are behind in workers). The price is we are less developed. City two only has two improved tiles and the capital does not have the powerful stone tile improved (maybe this could be prioritized before the farmed FP). And we don't have trade routes. Also, we've used a chop to get the next worker out in time.

So the million dollar question is risk. If consensus is to research BW first to mitigate risk of DOW, I'm OK with it. However, I think I would take the risk. It seems likely bronze will appear somewhere and we can pick it up with city 4 (if copper is not near the gems, I would still settle gems next).

 

[leif erikson]

You make a good argument as it is "only" four turns. I think if Copper shows up in an accessible place, the reward outweighs the risk. If the Copper is lies away from our core or is non-existent, then the reward is negated.

Not sure the best choice here?
Need to look at some test save to see if the reward in development justifies the risk?