SGOTM 15 - Xteam

[The-Hawk]

I would rather have our stack than his.

Looks like you might need to build some more seige to replenish losses... this is going to be a bloodbath. Damn, I'm jealous .

 

[Mad Professor]

I'm inclined to guess (without testing) that keeping the stack together and advancing is the go. Just make sure the WE's and Pikes in particular are as promoted and as healthy as they can be and make sure the super medic stays with the stack. I think we can even promote one of those WE's to +25% against mounted units can't we? With that many knights in the enemy stack we need as many of those +25's against mounted units as we can get, preferably in the units that already have a bonus against mounted units.

 

[zamint3]

Z, could you set up a test so that you could control Ham and get a good feel for how successful he would be in attacking us (initiating with cats) after we advance most (if not all) of our healthy units onto the wheat?

I did this, not too fond of the result if Hammu throws it all at us.

View attachment Ghandi Test Hammu attack effect T190.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[leif erikson]

Yeah, just tried it. Wish I was always that lucky with the RNG.

Won a number of 20 to 30% odds battles.
Ended with 4 Knights, 2 Maces and a XBow surviving on the hill. However, the Cats and Trebs of Lizzie's stack were trashed, most half strength or worse.

With our Superduper medic, could heal some of the Trebs and Cats while bombarding and then switch off? It is going to slow us down for sure...

This is going to be a bloodbath for sure. Replacing units and transporting them to the front will be key.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Won't have time to try it for about 6 hours, but curious to know if, when you set it up and advance playing India, Ham does attack and, if so, how. Know we can't count on identical behavior in the game, but it might provide some insight.

 

[leif erikson]

The save is set up so that we are Hammu and attack a stack composed of units like we have there now. It is an interesting exercise, but it does not provide info on what the computer AI might do as Hammu.

You'll understand better when you try it.

 

[zamint3]

You'll understand better when you try it.

You probably meant to attach a save.

I just tried to set it up my self and Hammu just runs his units around our stack, leaving only his longbows and siege in the city

 

[leif erikson]

You probably meant to attach a save.

I just tried to set it up my self and Hammu just runs his units around our stack, leaving only his longbows and siege in the city

That might be kind of nice?

 

[Htadus]

You probably meant to attach a save.

I just tried to set it up my self and Hammu just runs his units around our stack, leaving only his longbows and siege in the city

Now that is the normal AI behavier.

BTW Z, awsome conquest games recently. We could use that skill right now.

 

[zamint3]

Sorry leif - I didn't mean to be sarcastic!

I think what CP suggested, was that we tried to set up the game the other way around so that we advance as Ghandi and see what Hammu does.

I thought that was what you had done.

I tried a few more times altering the setup slightly but he just keeps running around our stack.

Save attached:
View attachment Ghandi Test Hammu behavior T190.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think what CP suggested, was that we tried to set up the game the other way around so that we advance as Ghandi and see what Hammu does.

I tried a few more times altering the setup slightly but he just keeps running around our stack.

Appreciate the know-how and effort to set up the test. I haven't played Ham yet, but something interesting to report regarding the second test playing India:

Because the set-up does not represent what would be extant next turn if we left some units behind to heal (and some siege to avoid degredation), I moved several units (including the mounted-promoted elephant) back a tile to roughly simulate a more likely scenario. When I did that, Ham did not go around, he attacked. And he attacked without using siege, first with 2 WEs, then 2 flanking Knights, then 3 maces, then he quit and brought a mace out to defend his two badly wounded surviving units on the hill. We could live with this, so suggest you play around with moving different sets of units back. Is it better than having Ham go around? Do we have enough cats to take advantage of a go-around?

BTW, an attack without siege would seem even less likely if we promote the WE to anti-siege, rather than anti-mounted and advance it.

 

[leif erikson]

Sorry leif - I didn't mean to be sarcastic!

I think what CP suggested, was that we tried to set up the game the other way around so that we advance as Ghandi and see what Hammu does.

I thought that was what you had done.

My apologies for not explaining.

I had used your save and I thought you were messing with me...

I tried a few more times altering the setup slightly but he just keeps running around our stack.

Appreciate your efforts. RL is killing me at the moment...
And the kids start coming home from college this weekend.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Played as Ham and got clobbered (like to know what you guys did differently), especially when I used just the two cats and withheld the treb, as I think would be fairly likely. My take is that Ham would more likely not attack our total stack. If he goes around as in testing -- that is, sending the knights ahead of the other units (which I am not used to seeing the AI do [Is this test at Emperor level?]) -- then that would be quite manageable; however, if he advances the knights only with the other units, then that would create problems, as we really don't have enough cats to destroy such a stack, but we'd have to try. Perhaps we should knight bait the tile he advances all his knights to in testing with an axe and/or worker.

"And the kids start coming home from college this weekend." There are worse problems to have. Mine is heading to China. Not sure when I'll see him.

 

[leif erikson]

"And the kids start coming home from college this weekend." There are worse problems to have. Mine is heading to China. Not sure when I'll see him.

Oh man, good luck with that. You're right, rather have my problem as that would be difficult. Is he going to work or visit?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Work, though for him that's close to play.

 

[leif erikson]

That is a good thing!

Hope he gets to come home once in a while, although that is a long, long trip.

Best of luck to him and safe journey.

 

[Htadus]

CP, Wish your son a fun and safe trip for me. My friends were in china 2 years ago and loved it. It is on my bucket list along with Peru's Machu Pichu.

As for the game. What are our real options? Waiting will get us no where and give Hammy time to resupply. Lets advance on to the wheat whith all we have and HA pilage the farm same turn. Next load all to hill and HA pillage the road before climbing the hill. then if knights decide to leave the defending to others and empty the city to go after Opis, they willend movement on the wheat tile. Pikes and if needed WE should be able to kill them all.

If they attack, our stack will be able to obsorb the pounding. We should give any available promotions to WE and pikes and drill promotion to XB's. Super healer can help while our trebs bombard.

 

[zamint3]

What are our real options? Waiting will get us no where and give Hammy time to resupply. Lets advance on to the wheat whith all we have

Tend to agree with this.

I tested all kinds of approaches, and got a lot of different response from the AI.
Removing the WE with the mounted-promotion caused him to attack, just removing the promotion made him go around. Removing one or more other units made him go around (sometimes with only 2 knights) or stay put or attack if enough was removed.

So at the moment I lean towards moving all in and putting the worker out there as a bait.

Worst case is, as CP noted, if he advances his knights with the rest of his stack or attacks with cats first.

Even best case will be difficult, those fortified LBs on a hill, that's no joke!

I will leave only the axe in Opis!? Does the AI ever do a direct amphibious attack?

Proposals:

Sell map to Cyrus for 90g
Sell MC to Toku for 50g


Build:

Delhi : We>Wealth>Units
Bombay : Treb>Wealth
Vij : Cat>Treb
Pat : WE>WE>Treb (or maybe cats)
Varanasi : We>Treb
Osaka : Treb>Wealth
Kyoto : Wealth
Tokyo : Wealth
Memphis : Wealth
Pi-R : CH>Wealth
Thebes : CH>Wealth
Heliopolis : Wealth
Elephantine : Wealth
Alexandria : Wealth
Giza : CH
Illinois : Wealth
Opis : Forge

I will try not to go into strike, it will be difficult, we need reinforcement. Can we transfer some of our units in the east to the new front west?
I will attack Egypt asap.

There's a vote coming up that we'll probably have to defy, we'll see, no doubt I'll stop and ask for advice before that.

I would like to play tomorrow morning, 16 hours from now, this Friday is not a workday in Denmark.

 

[Htadus]

Typically I would say they do not do Amphibius when land access is available, however if they send units from the island, those units might.

I forgot to ask that we delay war egypt for a while to supply Babylon. So I am all for sending all availalble units (not in Giza) toward west and not takiing out egypt just yet.

As for builds, if a captured city does not have pop to whip some thing important, I whip a seige unit first to replenish what was lost.

OK for map trades.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I tested all kinds of approaches, and got a lot of different response from the AI. Removing the WE with the mounted-promotion caused him to attack, just removing the promotion made him go around. Removing one or more other units made him go around (sometimes with only 2 knights) or stay put or attack if enough was removed. So, we don't know what Ham will do. Aside from seperating his knights from the rest of his stack (as he did in the test), wouldn't the best thing for us be for him to attack our stack? If he doesn't use cats, then he's very likely to lose more units than we do. If he does use cats, then my testing showed we are still likely to get the better of it, plus he loses his cats and therefore we definitely gain a tactical advantage.

So at the moment I lean towards moving all in and putting the worker out there as a bait. Concur with worker bait, but question going all in. If we leave in place our four wounded units (promoting the badly wounded WE) and move the supermedic to their tile, then they will all heal IBT (and the WEs won't be of great use until they do heal), thereby increasing the total strength of our forces without risking them while encouraging attack on our big stack. Also, their healed presence on that tile would make it easier to get the four trailing units into battle. Furthermore, it shouldn't be a problem moving them forward and eventually onto the hill as we bombard, since, once we are on the hill, only knights could attack them (which would likely be good). Only drawback is that this approach likely greatly reduces the probablility of foolish knight advances. If you think such an advance is reasonably likely, then all in may well be optimal.

Worst case is, as CP noted, if he advances his knights with the rest of his stack or attacks with cats first. Do not think attack with cats first is worst case. That would be better for us than his doing nothing. If he advances knights with rest of stack, perhaps Z should pause for further analysis.

Even best case will be difficult, those fortified LBs on a hill, that's no joke! They will cost us trebs.

I will leave only the axe in Opis!? Might as well move the wounded HA into the city. Does the AI ever do a direct amphibious attack? Concur with Htadus -- greatest threat is from the island. Probably need to take a risk. If things go well around Borsippa, then we can aford to be more defensive.

Also concur that HA should pillage wheat farm one turn and road the next, unless foolish AI play greatly reduces the risks.

Proposals:

Sell map to Cyrus for 90g Concur.
Sell MC to Toku for 50g What can he do with his money when everyone is at war with him? Are we not safe to wait for it to grow?


Build:

Delhi : We>Wealth>Units
Bombay : Treb>Wealth
Vij : Cat>Treb Perhaps cat>wealth.
Pat : WE>WE>Treb (or maybe cats)
Varanasi : We>Treb
Osaka : Treb>Wealth micro-manage to get treb in one turn
Kyoto : Wealth
Tokyo : Wealth Little wealth to be produced here.
Memphis : Wealth Same, so go ahead with HA.
Pi-R : CH>Wealth Can grow city faster and still complete CH in 1 turn.
Thebes : CH>Wealth
Heliopolis : Wealth Again, little wealth available here. Continue barracks.
Elephantine : Wealth
Alexandria : Wealth
Giza : CH Suggest building wealth while maximizing city growth for five turns, then whipping CH.
Illinois : Wealth Is this where missionary is headed?
Opis : Forge Insufficient production to justify forge. Like caravel, lb, or cat better, but decision can wait.

I will try not to go into strike, it will be difficult, we need reinforcement. Could argue that will will need more units if we start losing them to insufficient funds. Can we transfer some of our units in the east to the new front west?
I will attack Egypt asap. Whipping has temporarily solved unhappiness problems in Egyptian cities, so can delay taking Sat and send units west, where they will first give some protection against naval invasion.

There's a vote coming up that we'll probably have to defy, we'll see, no doubt I'll stop and ask for advice before that.

I would like to play tomorrow morning, 16 hours from now, (green light here) this Friday is not a workday in Denmark.

Does a ski bum even care?

BTW, don't see a need for Slavery for five turns. What about switching to Caste until we want to whip CH in Giza and expand the Egyptian cities by running artists? If we do that, then missionary probably goes to Alexandria.