SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[unclethrill]

Sorry for my lack of comments for the last few days. RL has been crazy busy and will be for the next week but after that I should have plenty of time. I have been keeping up with the thread and I am good with all the plans so far.

 

[ZPV]

Some more testing:
City 2 needs a worker available and in position immediately when it's founded. We just can't manage that, building the settler at size 2, but it can be made to work at size 3, (then 1-popping a worker in Paris to replace the one that leaves).
I think we need Pottery instead of AH. Losing a pasture on the sheep is not a big loss when there are a bunch of floodplains to take the load in the meantime, but the cost difference hurts our Library date (and means that we need to wait for Pottery after Priesthood before finishing the Oracle).

 

[BLubmuz]

Some more testing:
City 2 needs a worker available and in position immediately when it's founded. We just can't manage that, building the settler at size 2, but it can be made to work at size 3, (then 1-popping a worker in Paris to replace the one that leaves).
I think we need Pottery instead of AH. Losing a pasture on the sheep is not a big loss when there are a bunch of floodplains to take the load in the meantime, but the cost difference hurts our Library date (and means that we need to wait for Pottery after Priesthood before finishing the Oracle).

I was already on the boat of pottery only. But i think we must wait for PH, just to have the Oracle assured.
I think that the next job for our worker is a road on the forest SW of Paris, to ease the movement of any unit in that direction. Then, IIRC we don't need a road to have Paris and the blue city connected, because they are on the same river.

Now, some team management, starting from the problems:

Folket
just a checking in post. not clear if you want to be on the fold. If you're reading this please tell us something.

MeowZeDung
same. I know he's willing to participate, but often he's caught by RL problems. Mate, please tell us what you can actually do this game

BSPollux
He informed us that he's getting bored and he was right at the time. Now we seem to have agreed on a plan, but no sign. Please knock.

Unclethrill
He informed us at the beginning that he was restructuring home, will be back in few days.

Shaandore
just finished the boring but important first TS, giving good contribution. I think he can be a good member.

Mastiff of Ar
An old CFC member, which seems a bit rusty ATM. But i think he just needs to refresh to be an important member.

ZPV
A player which deeply knows the code and a veteran of the SGs. His contribute to the team is obvious.

Blubmuz
Your fearless captain, great general when war is needed, good strategist for the opening, less for the mid game.

Now, we need a volunteer for the turns until 35, then one for the turns until 50. Please chime in.

Some arguments to discuss before next TS
- Do we revolt to slavery ASAP or we wait until we can make use of it?
- Settler at size 3 seems to work better for ZPV. I haven't tested, so can you explain us your testing?
- Before pottery can be put on use for city 2 (Orleans, IIRC) we have time to research all the path to PH, i think.
- We have a small discount on Myst. and we can have the same discount on Poly. by knowing Brennus. Since i doubt that he will trade it if we research Medi., i'm thinking to research that, it's more flexible. Unless we plan to steal it.
- Do Paris grow to size 3 during the build of another warrior?
- What to do if Hindu spreads at us? And if Brennus asks to convert?

 

[ZPV]

I was already on the boat of pottery only. But i think we must wait for PH, just to have the Oracle assured.

I wavered a bit, seeing that sheep resource - my post there was mainly just reaffirming my position as for Pottery only.

Now, we need a volunteer for the turns until 35, then one for the turns until 50. Please chime in.

Some arguments to discuss before next TS
- Do we revolt to slavery ASAP or we wait until we can make use of it?
- Settler at size 3 seems to work better for ZPV. I haven't tested, so can you explain us your testing?
- Before pottery can be put on use for city 2 (Orleans, IIRC) we have time to research all the path to PH, i think.
- We have a small discount on Myst. and we can have the same discount on Poly. by knowing Brennus. Since i doubt that he will trade it if we research Medi., i'm thinking to research that, it's more flexible. Unless we plan to steal it.
- Do Paris grow to size 3 during the build of another warrior?
- What to do if Hindu spreads at us? And if Brennus asks to convert?

I'll take either turnset or none as needed by the team.
-Slavery: I think we should revolt at a convenient moment rather than the turn we learn BW. While a Settler walks to its founding site or a Worker improves a tile are the conventional times, and I don't see a reason to vary from this.
-Size 2 vs 3: I'll elaborate on this in a later post, when I'm able to provide more detail. The short version is that size 2 struggles to get enough tiles improved quickly.
-Pottery now? I want Pottery-Writing before Myst-Poly-Priesthood because Orleans is ready to build/whip a library right away (and then run 2 scientists), and we have enough forests around that late Priesthood doesn't hurt us very much.
-Poly makes sense to me too (if only for unlocking Literature and allowing us a little more lightbulb flexibility than Meditation). The only reason I'd go to Meditation instead is if we have a lot of trouble researching.
-The first warrior is not done yet, when Paris reaches size 3. (Note: if we want to finish the warrior before building a settler, but still grow to size 3, max-food followed by max-hammers is more efficient than trying to line up growth and production to happen at the same time.
-Hinduism: ignore it, unless Brennus comes asking (which is fairly unlikely). We don't need the happiness yet, don't have any religious civics, and don't want to unnecessarily annoy another neighbour. If he does demand we switch, then it's probably worth it, since we get +3 attitude instantly (with OB and years of peace to come), which will let us beg for Fishing or Hunting free once we have Alphabet.

 

[Shaandore]

Some arguments to discuss before next TS
- Do we revolt to slavery ASAP or we wait until we can make use of it?
I think we should revolt while we are still at size 2, since there is no rush to settle, and we lose less commerce/hammer/food while we are at size 2.
- Settler at size 3 seems to work better for ZPV. I haven't tested, so can you explain us your testing?
I would again say that there is no rush, since we see no nearby borders, and we can easily time the first warrior to come out the turn we grow to size 3.
- Before pottery can be put on use for city 2 (Orleans, IIRC) we have time to research all the path to PH, i think.
I think that pottery would be best right after BW. I still need to test this, but some early cottages could help a lot when researching the PH line.
- We have a small discount on Myst. and we can have the same discount on Poly. by knowing Brennus. Since i doubt that he will trade it if we research Medi., i'm thinking to research that, it's more flexible. Unless we plan to steal it.
I vote pottery next.
- Do Paris grow to size 3 during the build of another warrior?
We don't have that many hammers, unless we chop into a warrior. It might be a good idea since we will have quite a few barbs
- What to do if Hindu spreads at us? And if Brennus asks to convert?
I agree with ZPV here, converting can wait. Brennus is usally a guy that everybody hates. The other neighbour could be a stronger AI and it's better to befriend the useful guys

Answeres in red

Another important question is what to improve with the worker next?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Did we agree we're going to build (chop) the oracle in city #2, and is that how you're running the tests?

Yes, I'm very rusty. I haven't played Civ in over 2 years. Of course, I was never a guy who could understand the code and relied on people who had a better understanding of game mechanics to explain stuff. That's why these are great for me, I learn...

 

[BLubmuz]

Answeres in red

Another important question is what to improve with the worker next?

It's tempting to have pottery next, but where do we build cottages? The answer resides also in your question.

It's sure that we want to cottage the 3 FPs near Orleans, which is plenty of food. But the best help we can give to our growth is to farm the FP near Paris right after a road is built on the forest SW. (if we don't that tile will always cost mov points).

This makes me think that the settler will be ready after we have PH in the bag if we don't research pottery and Orleans can start with the Oracle. With 4 forests in BFC we can even spare some and have it built in a very safe date. We can use a worker for the forests/mines (2 forests are on hills) and the other one, which will follow the settler (chop/whip) can cottage. This plan needs some testing, but i think it can work.

Did anyone updated the test game? I'd like to test myself.

 

[ZPV]

Blub - I posted an updated test last night a few replies up. No one has downloaded it.

I don't want Pottery for cottages, I want it for fast Writing. If we don't go to writing soonish, we never will (I really mean, our economy will go down the drain before we get there), and it'll be t100 before we're even close to alphabet and can start to think about stealing IW. The Oracle is not worth that, even if we get Rifling from it.

I think we can squeeze more juice out of Orleans than just slow-building the Oracle - with all those forests to chop we can build it in 5 turns, not 25, and do something useful in the meantime.

 

[Folket]

Blubmuz,
Is there something special I should put in the checkin post? I'm reading the thread a few times between 8-15 GMT every day. I'm a little overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge pouring here that I have no idea about and I'm uncertain what to say. I have never optimized an early game in this way. I find it interesting and I'm learning a lot.


I'm willing to take either turnset. I might be what I need to start playing with the worldbuilder save.

 

[BSPollux]

BSPollux
He informed us that he's getting bored and he was right at the time. Now we seem to have agreed on a plan, but no sign. Please knock.

I'm here. I read this thread all the time, esterday was one of the very few days I didnt open it.
I'm quite sure my experience level and knowledge of Civ4 is below average, compared with the active participants in this team.
So I only voice my opinion on general questions or when every single aspect is known so I cant miss something
Other then that I posted a little more at the beginning because it was too silent and I wanted to get people going. You know, someone has to be the first on the dancefloor, then the others join in

I'll let you know If I disagree on something. Right now I am overwhelmed by the options

 

[BLubmuz]

Blubmuz,
Is there something special I should put in the checkin post? I'm reading the thread a few times between 8-15 GMT every day. I'm a little overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge pouring here that I have no idea about and I'm uncertain what to say. I have never optimized an early game in this way. I find it interesting and I'm learning a lot.

I'm willing to take either turnset. I might be what I need to start playing with the worldbuilder save.

No, nothing special. Just please tell us your time zone and if you want, something about yourself.

About the game, it you post your opinion about the proposals we make we can better start to consider you a team member. Don't worry to voice your opinion or to ask anything. We're all here to have fun and LEARN.

I'm here. I read this thread all the time, esterday was one of the very few days I didnt open it.
I'm quite sure my experience level and knowledge of Civ4 is below average, compared with the active participants in this team.
So I only voice my opinion on general questions or when every single aspect is known so I cant miss something
Other then that I posted a little more at the beginning because it was too silent and I wanted to get people going. You know, someone has to be the first on the dancefloor, then the others join in

I'll let you know If I disagree on something. Right now I am overwhelmed by the options

Good to know. What about take next TS once we have decided what to do?

Please note that the starting phase is always the more difficult to decide. We have an enormous anount of options, each one more important then any other decision we can make after turn 100. Basically, a game is won in the early 60-70 turns.

 

[Folket]

I get to play a quarter of the time when the game is won. yeah for weight on my shoulders.

So I live in Sweden. I work as a developer.

 

[Folket]

Which post has the latest testsave?

 

[unclethrill]

Which post has the latest testsave?

I believe it is post 217 by zpv. Just for the record, any posts from active members is good. Even one that say you don't under stand why something is how someone describes. Often times through the process of explaining, new ideas will be discovered.

 

[BSPollux]

Good to know. What about take next TS once we have decided what to do?

Sure, better now when youre still actively watching my actions.

 

[Shaandore]

It's tempting to have pottery next, but where do we build cottages? The answer resides also in your question.

It's sure that we want to cottage the 3 FPs near Orleans, which is plenty of food. But the best help we can give to our growth is to farm the FP near Paris right after a road is built on the forest SW. (if we don't that tile will always cost mov points).

If we have a little more information about the south, it could be a good idea to put Orelans 1N of the planned position (so 3w 1s of capital), and we would settle city #3 1W of the wheat, next to the oasis. Orleans would get more FPs this way, and would become a strong commerce site later. It would also share some nice tiles with the capital that are ideal for early cottages (2 riverside grass and 1 FP). But all this requires that Brennus is far or has better places to settle.

 

[Folket]

If Brennus is not well liked by other AIs, can't we try to steal workers from him?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

So, what are the issues to be decided?

1 - Warrior movement
2 - Tech path (especially next tech)
3 - Build order (specifically when to start settler, size 2 or 3)
4 - Site of City #2 (and probably a dot map we can agree upon)

Anything else?

 

[Folket]

I like dotmap1 posted earlier.

Send warrior north to explore. Send next warrior southwest to explore.

Instinct tells me to build settler at 3. So perhaps finish warrior, settler, then warrior/worker?

 

[ZPV]

Size 2 vs Size 3 for the settler:
Arguments for size 3:
When we build the settler, the worker we have needs to travel with it immediately. Otherwise there's no point rushing out the settler so quickly. That means Paris needs another worker. Whipping down to size 1 is unattractive, which means we have to slow-build it, which takes 9 turns at size 2, a loooong time. (Whipping 3->2, or growing and whipping 4->2 are not so bad).
At size 3, our settler can have an escort, rather than risking being eaten by wolves.

Possible advantages of size 2:
A couple turns' earlier building the city could possibly let it complete some crucial task a turn or two earlier. (i.e. spawning a GS or building the Oracle). We need a full plan to justify this though, because the cost at Paris is not small.

-----------------------
Worker moves:
The natural move is just to mine the plains hill, then farm the FP. However, building that road, as Blubmuz suggested, is growing on me. I can't say I'm sure which one I prefer.
-----------------------
Warrior moves:
It has to be south for our initial warrior. Unless there is silver or fur to go with the deer, we're not going to settle north any time soon, and there's no point in fighting the wolf. We really want to see what's around the oasis, and also to find out where Brennus (and any other neighbour we have) is.
-----------------------
City plans:
Every city we settle should have a purpose; something it puts almost all its energy into, at least at first.
e.g. Fish City will work three or four cottages for Paris so that they are mature when our happiness cap grows and Paris can work them. Then it will grow on the coast and run a couple of scientists, so that we get a GS from it sometime.

We have four big tasks in the ancient era:
Research the techs we need.
Build workers and settlers.
Spawn a Great Scientist.
Build the Oracle.

Nos. 1 and 2 form a balancing act since the third city will decrease our research rate for a little while, so we need to be careful when we settle it. #2, #3 and #4 are big tasks, and we need to assign them to cities either now or in the very near future.
This is the focus of my testing, trying to see what works and what doesn't, and what our empire looks like at the end of it, in terms of assigning these tasks to cities.
Note: in my test game I accidentally switched a couple of plains forests and grass forests around. They're unlikely to be significant during the next few turns, but if you do need them for worker positioning, just bear that in mind.