Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
If we all agree on Mining, Shann can select it and scout more as soon as a movement plan is in place. I think NW and W works, then we can see where (if) "safety zone" spots exists farther west than we can see right now.
SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
For what i've read, i think that we all agree on mining. If i'm wrong, please scream!
But it takes few turns and i don't think that in 3 or 4 more turns we can have a great improvement in our knowledge of the land.
We can draft a plan, then revise it if the land reveals something which makes us reconsider it.
ZPV, i was thinking that given the land, a library is not a great boost for our Capital and, since we have the 100% bonus it can be chopped. But we must remember that the Capital has the 8C from Palace. Thus i think that this time writing can wait. I doubt it can wait until PH, but we'll see.
My proposal for a research plan, which can be revised if we feel it's worth, is:
1) Mining - BW
2) AH - pottery - Writing
3) Myst - Med (or Poly) - PH
4) Alpha
My reasons are:
1) chopping and slavery: 1 turn of anarchy doesn't hurt with a single city
2) AH to see horses and pottery to have a 2nd prerequisite for writing and the prerequisite for MC. And granaries, well paired with slavery. But if it takes too long we can move it after PH.
3) This is the most obvious, the path to Oracle. Poly can be worth the bigger cost beacuse it's more tradable than med. BTS AI is very jealous of this tech.
4) needed, not only to try to complete one of this scenario objectives.
I will try some tests to see how this can work.
Once i'll have some comment i will post our plan on page 1.
But it takes few turns and i don't think that in 3 or 4 more turns we can have a great improvement in our knowledge of the land.
We can draft a plan, then revise it if the land reveals something which makes us reconsider it.
ZPV, i was thinking that given the land, a library is not a great boost for our Capital and, since we have the 100% bonus it can be chopped. But we must remember that the Capital has the 8C from Palace. Thus i think that this time writing can wait. I doubt it can wait until PH, but we'll see.
My proposal for a research plan, which can be revised if we feel it's worth, is:
1) Mining - BW
2) AH - pottery - Writing
3) Myst - Med (or Poly) - PH
4) Alpha
My reasons are:
1) chopping and slavery: 1 turn of anarchy doesn't hurt with a single city
2) AH to see horses and pottery to have a 2nd prerequisite for writing and the prerequisite for MC. And granaries, well paired with slavery. But if it takes too long we can move it after PH.
3) This is the most obvious, the path to Oracle. Poly can be worth the bigger cost beacuse it's more tradable than med. BTS AI is very jealous of this tech.
4) needed, not only to try to complete one of this scenario objectives.
I will try some tests to see how this can work.
Once i'll have some comment i will post our plan on page 1.
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
- Messages
- 868
My problem with deciding our research path is that we still don't know where our second city will be. For now, I can only see weak spots. I think that mining does make sense as first tech with two uncovered hills, but what is the bottleneck to oracle? I would guess that it is research.
In that case, increasing our beaker count should have priority over hammers. Researching mining and the other techs will be faster with some cottages. I'm not saying that pottery is better as first tech, I'm only saying that I want to run some tests this weekend to see which is better. Mining will take 1 or 2 turns now IIRC.
In that case, increasing our beaker count should have priority over hammers. Researching mining and the other techs will be faster with some cottages. I'm not saying that pottery is better as first tech, I'm only saying that I want to run some tests this weekend to see which is better. Mining will take 1 or 2 turns now IIRC.
The thing is, at this phase of the game, a cottage represents 0 production and not very much research. We'll want to focus on them a littler later to set up our mid-game tech, but not yet. With scientists at least you get a shiny GS after 17 turns.
We shouldn't be trying to optimize the Oracle for MC - instead optimize expansion and pick up the Oracle anyway. For that we need BW, and we have other stuff to build (workers and settlers) until Writing comes in anyway.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
A quick calculation on the research we need, makes me exclude AH from the path. We can wait to see horses, but not to start the Oracle. Instead, i'd prefere Poly in place of the cheaper Med, because the AI rarely trades it.
Thus i propose this path:
1) Mining - BW
2) pottery - Writing
3) Myst - Poly - PH
4) Alpha
If we don't have copper we must be very careful in fogbusting.
Please remember this:
- every unit fogbusts a 5*5 square even if it actually see less
- the barbs start to enter borders when the majority of the players have 3 cities
Thus i propose this path:
1) Mining - BW
2) pottery - Writing
3) Myst - Poly - PH
4) Alpha
If we don't have copper we must be very careful in fogbusting.
Please remember this:
- every unit fogbusts a 5*5 square even if it actually see less
- the barbs start to enter borders when the majority of the players have 3 cities
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
I will run some focused tests tonight to see what a safe date on the Oracle will be and if our proposed tech path will get us there.
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
Are the test games set up with the leaders ZPV is thinking are the AI?
There's not much we can usefully tell for the Oracle dates from the restrictions on the leaders - what I posted were just (very slightly educated) guesses.
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
For what it's worth,
T68 3 cities, 4 workers, followed BLubmuz tech path, lost Oracle with 3 turns left and was chopping it.
We can probably trim the 3 turns off but I really think that in the real game we need to shoot for a sub-T65 Oracle or not waste our time on trying. The best way to do that is to work BW in after PH instead of before.
T68 3 cities, 4 workers, followed BLubmuz tech path, lost Oracle with 3 turns left and was chopping it.
We can probably trim the 3 turns off but I really think that in the real game we need to shoot for a sub-T65 Oracle or not waste our time on trying. The best way to do that is to work BW in after PH instead of before.
Playing like that, it's not a huge waste of time trying though. What do you lose by going for it?
What are the consequences of no BW? When I tried no-BW variants I couldn't generate much research (whereas with BW city #2 can whip/chop a library and run a pair of scientists very quickly) and my expansion was way down because the capital had to put a lot more energy into the slingshot.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I was thinking to write to reverse pottery-writing with BW, so we can hire some scientist, but this probably will delay the library, thus we can be in a worst position.
What comes in mind is that with a so tight race, if we want the Oracle, we can probably move pottery/writing after PH. Better privilege growth at this stage and chop libraries later.
Then, my reasons to pursue the Oracle:
1) with a so poor start, a free expensive tech can make a huge difference
2) as usual when you build a WW, you deny it to your opponents
3) to enforce 2), if there's an AI which can build the Oracle before turn 65 it has to be a monster, thus deny it a free tech can be important to win the game.
Last, remember that to win the competition we have to win the game
I was thinking to write to reverse pottery-writing with BW, so we can hire some scientist, but this probably will delay the library, thus we can be in a worst position.
What comes in mind is that with a so tight race, if we want the Oracle, we can probably move pottery/writing after PH. Better privilege growth at this stage and chop libraries later.
Then, my reasons to pursue the Oracle:
1) with a so poor start, a free expensive tech can make a huge difference
2) as usual when you build a WW, you deny it to your opponents
3) to enforce 2), if there's an AI which can build the Oracle before turn 65 it has to be a monster, thus deny it a free tech can be important to win the game.
Last, remember that to win the competition we have to win the game
This is only Emperor. The AI isn't going to run away with anything, and our start isn't *that* bad; there's plenty of juice to be squeezed from it. Also, early Oracle doesn't usually lead to a super AI - they typically do nothing with the free tech, just sit and admire their Marble resource. MC is a only a small boost, expensive beaker-wise or not, and we shouldn't sacrifice everything to get it on T65 if the MM doesn't work. We have more important things to focus on.
I'm realy getting bored here. I dont see any progress. All I see is, that you name all options, name each and every ones chances and risks, and start again. But you seem unable to make a decission.
We need a way to make decissions so that playing may continue. standing still for weeks with nothing happening is not fun. I could understand it if we were making a plan here, but we are not, we only describe how plans could look like, thats all. But we dont chose one.
We need a way to make decissions so that playing may continue. standing still for weeks with nothing happening is not fun. I could understand it if we were making a plan here, but we are not, we only describe how plans could look like, thats all. But we dont chose one.
Its hard on us lurkers as well.
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
Mining... and moves west and north safely.
Any other voters?
Any other voters?
The tech after Mining is the question, since that will only take 2 turns.
BW looks like the natural choice to me - I've tried going straight to Writing in tests and it just isn't very strong because we're not ready to build libraries yet, and Pottery/AH provide very little intermediate gain to put before BW.
Shaandore, could you let us know when you expect to play? That will put a firm deadline on what at this point is only exploratory testing.
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
- Messages
- 868
Unfortunately I didn't really have time to run tests, but I did run one to get a feel for the situation.
I agree that mining is the best as first tech. BW is a natural second choice because of all the forests, and seem superior empire growth wise. That, and we won't really have time to build granaries or cottages for a while since our capital and the worker will be busy. AH has no real benefits without any visible resource. So minig-> BW is best growth wise, which is what we have to focus on as you guys have pointed out.
So PPP:
Every turn: start and report if we hit a bump on the road
t5:
select Mining
t6, t7:
move warrior NW
t8:
mining is in, select BW
move warrior as safely as possible in a circle
t9-t14:
move warrior as safely as possible in a circle
t15:
move warrior as safely as possible in a circle
worker is ready, switch to warrior, Paris works the FP
start improving corn
t16-t18:
move warrior as safely as possible in a circle
t19:
move warrior as safely as possible in a circle
corn is improved, switch Paris to working the corn
t20:
Worker ready to move.
stop, save, report, upload, whatever.
Questions:
1. Do you agree with the propsed plan?
2. Do you have any proposals?
3. Anything specific to watch out for or take a screenshot of?
I agree that mining is the best as first tech. BW is a natural second choice because of all the forests, and seem superior empire growth wise. That, and we won't really have time to build granaries or cottages for a while since our capital and the worker will be busy. AH has no real benefits without any visible resource. So minig-> BW is best growth wise, which is what we have to focus on as you guys have pointed out.
So PPP:
Every turn: start and report if we hit a bump on the road
t5:
select Mining
t6, t7:
move warrior NW
t8:
mining is in, select BW
move warrior as safely as possible in a circle
t9-t14:
move warrior as safely as possible in a circle
t15:
move warrior as safely as possible in a circle
worker is ready, switch to warrior, Paris works the FP
start improving corn
t16-t18:
move warrior as safely as possible in a circle
t19:
move warrior as safely as possible in a circle
corn is improved, switch Paris to working the corn
t20:
Worker ready to move.
stop, save, report, upload, whatever.
Questions:
1. Do you agree with the propsed plan?
2. Do you have any proposals?
3. Anything specific to watch out for or take a screenshot of?
No. After turn 5, if you don't have a tech selected, you don't research.
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