SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[Folket]

We will not get fail gold for any production on the turn after the wonder is built, it is turned to overflow.

 

[Shaandore]

It seems Ram was smart enough to use the GE on the wonder that needed the most hammers. (I suppose the others were nearly complete).

We are not too lucky, are we?

At least we will blow his butt with cannons soon. Let's go and pwn him

 

[BLubmuz]

It seems Ram was smart enough to use the GE on the wonder that needed the most hammers. (I suppose the others were nearly complete).

damn him

We are not too lucky, are we?
no

At least we will blow his butt with cannons soon. Let's go and pwn him

Let's give him a sample now with muskets

Can we use the spy to pillage his horses?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Okay, here's where we are:

182 -
28g from failed Taj
Hammu gets a golden age (bad)
Ram finishes Ankor Wat
DOW on Ram

183-
Got Durno back (Courthouse/coll/granary still intact)

184-
128 failgold from AW
Hammu is now our worst enemy
Killed a pesky Ram workboat
Hammu now has Edu!

Stopped for a bit. We have just now gotten enough gold to research Lib in 3 turns. What's the move? It'll take several more turns to finish Chem and get Steel, do we risk it with Hammu in a golden age?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Ram now has a LB, 2HA, 2 cats, 1 Xbow, and an axe in Thebes.

EDIT: Attached save for your viewing displeasure.

 

[Shaandore]

screw them all. Ha had to get a golden age now too. It would have been very rewarding now to have 3 turns of development on these guys. I really don't know what is the best move. Risking lib looks stupid. Maybe Astro so we can trade it around? Or Replacable parts, cause we will need it anyway. Let's hope that Hammu won't get lib in 2 turns. Or Economics, at least we make sure we get the GM.

Edit: Thebes won't be a problem with >10 muskets, just go for it.

 

[ZPV]

Good news that Thebes is relatively lightly defended. Only three units get defensive bonuses.

If we had 5 turns to get Liberalism, we could find a way to muster the gold to pay for Chemistry. I don't think we do have that time to spare though. 3 turns and Constitution are probably going to be the best we can get. (Once we get Liberalism, we'll want to revolt to Rep+Merc).

A few spies have cropped up again - Lyons, Rheims and Durocortorum.
There are a couple of things you can do to make them less likely to appear.
1) Especially post-Mercantilism, if you manually select a specialist with the city governor turned on, then any more specialists that get hired will be of the same type.
2) The emphasize buttons - using them makes it less likely that a new citizen will be made a specialist.

There's some city management to do in Duro - whip the forge and start the FP.
Also you probably want to whip the bank in Bibracte now, so the chops will then go into a market.

 

[Shaandore]

We will have Rep from Pyramids, so Constitution could wait. (maybe we could even trade for it). I know that Econ is cheaper, but won't the GM make up for the difference? If we go for Constitution, it is very likely that we lose the GM against a golden age Hammu.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Yeah, I hadn't finished the turn, so I hadn't checked for spies yet. I look at the cities every turn playing SGOTM.

Will do on Duro. I pre-chopped a little after the DOW, knowing the workers were safe for a turn. I can whip the bank now in Bibract.

I'm glad you think Thebes is lightly defended! The 2.9% against the LB gave me chills, but I know he's the tough guy of the group.

I'll let you guys think about what to take from Lib while I'm at work. No way Hammu can get it in under 3 turns, right?

 

[BLubmuz]

So, the button has been pushed. There's no way that 16 muskets don't manage to take Thebes, but be prepared to suffer big losses, especially if Ram upgrades some unit. Use the less promoted but full health ones first. Arrow-fodder, i think.

Then, Lib and research. Hammu now has Edu, so he's the real threat for both Lib and Econ. Astro is the best tech we can get in terms of beakers, but Econ for the free GM makes sense despite it's worth almost 1000 beakers less. To have a GM we need to revolt to Caste and Philo (optional) and run a bunch of merchants for many turns.
Hammu is the most advanced and the real threat for all the game. BTW if we were less quick on Optics he would have beaten us on the circum bonus.

We're @30% break even now, but only with all our core cities plus 3 former Celt ones building whealth. Not a great situation.
I've tried to set all our cities to build something and we're @+3gpt @0% research. A disaster. I've told you we need markets.
We don't have a chance to win both the races to Lib and Econ, so i think that using Lib for Econ can be a good choice. Mastiff needs to check the F4 screen the turn before complete it, to be sure Hammu is still lacking both. So if he get Econ we must move on Astro, wich is more rewarding. If he learnt Edu this turn it's almost impossible he can have Lib now, without multipliers like Unis and OU, GAge or not and Econ too is very difficult. He's got only 6 cities after all and binary is only used by the human.

Then, after the rushes are solved, we must think if research Astro first. It would give us a big boon on the trade routes. For now we're lucky to have 2 cities on the island, because all the cities have TR with those.

 

[BLubmuz]

Yeah, I hadn't finished the turn, so I hadn't checked for spies yet. I look at the cities every turn playing SGOTM.
usually before you hit enter, is the best way.

I can whip the bank now in Bibract.

If you wait next turn you can whip it for 2 pop instead of 3, so you can start a market and whip it sooner. Rinse and repeat for a grocer.

edit: we need to build 2 units, 1 for Duro and one for Calleva. If Ram takes Venta i don't care, we can build it later.

edit2: do not revolt to anything once Thebes falls, save and report. We need 2 turns for a double civics change, so we must decide the priority and if it's worth to make them in the same turn. I doubt he can, but it can be unpleasant have a forced turn of anarchy in case Ram manage to recapture Thebes. Or if it revolts. We need to take cities to not have it completely surrounded.

 

[Shaandore]

I think we need to get started with infra. It's nice sitting on 24+ cities, but all of them producing wealth without decent infra won't make our economy. In some cases we can switch to infra now, in most other cities we have to switch after lib.

Rouen needs to finish its forge, and get a courthouse, a library and a bank in this order. Losing that 4 gpt which comes from wealth won't hurt our lib race. (Especially considering that we get some conquer money from Thebes next turn) This city also needs a lighthouse, and is working an unimproved tile (in the meantime a desert hill is being improved 3 tiles from this place.) We also need to use the whip while we can.

We need banks in our core cities (Paris, Tours, Lyons, Orleans), and grocers too, especially in Paris. In addition we can't whip in Paris, so it is urgent. BTW one more Bank in Camulo and we have the 6 that is needed for Wall street. (with the one in Bibracte)

We should build Moai too, in 2 turns we get stone, so it will be relatively cheap. Isca would be a nice place for that, and it could be chopped. (Calleva is nice as well, but it would be too slow to get it there.)

We need to decide on HE and NE. I propose Gergovia for NE and Orleans for HE.

In a lot of cities we have some citizens that should be whipped. Some 3-turn cottages can be bulldozed for farms and workshops. (we need to start going crazy with workshops)

Durocortorum can be whipped for the forge, with OF and the first chop in granary. Next chop goes into courthouse.

Bagacum should steal Oasis from Bibracte. Vienne should steel the corn from Camulo, and Camulo should get some chops too. Or Camulo works the corn. Somebody has to work it (Verlamion doesn't need two workers at size two, it has 3 improved special tiles. I would send one of them now to chop for Camulo.) The area south of Camulo needs to get irrigated, it could be chained from the Oasis near Bibracte.

Having a good infra and improved land will make us much more powerful than fighting for prizes (eg physics GS). Those will come naturally if we do this right.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Great input guys. This is why I stopped, it's my first turnset in almost 3 years!

Do we want a couple longbows for the knights that will be coming our way? Or is there a better unit...

@Shan - We wants a forge, granary, and CH before the Forbidden Palace?

 

[ZPV]

Well, we do need some infrastructure. We just need to get to Liberalism first. So long as we do that, we've got out of the hole that forced us to build Wealth in new cities rather than granaries, lighthouses, etc.

For the most part, I consider gold multipliers overrated. They make sense in Paris and Bibracte, but the rest of the cities have 10-20 commerce at most. It's just not worth spending 200 hammers on a Bank because we'll run 100% research once we get enough production to pay for our cities.
On the other hand, we will want to whip the bank in Paris after Lib, and then have the discipline to work the grassland, farms, and all the food tiles.

Merc+Repr will boost our economy very soon.

Durocortorum already has a courthouse, and the whipped forge will speed up FP. In that city, the gold boost from FP is the most important thing.

Instead of commerce multipliers, we should consider building a couple of settlers for island fishing villages. We'll want them for sushi, and the third and fourth trade routes will need to be offshore.

If Orleans is going to be a legendary city, it shouldn't build HE. Maybe Apache.
I've already stated my preference for NE in Thebes, because we need numbers rather than quality soon, in terms of great people.

 

[BLubmuz]

Merc+Repr will boost our economy very soon.

Not exactly. The pair will boost our research, but not our economy, since we're running slavery and we have only 1 market ATM.

Instead of commerce multipliers, we should consider building a couple of settlers for island fishing villages. We'll want them for sushi, and the third and fourth trade routes will need to be offshore.

Later, please. More cities will just drain our disastered economy for now.

If Orleans is going to be a legendary city, it shouldn't build HE. Maybe Apache.
I've already stated my preference for NE in Thebes, because we need numbers rather than quality soon, in terms of great people.

Apache is a perfect candidate for the HE by a military point of view. But i prefer quality later to random great people early. Thebes has so many WW that it will produce the next 2 GPersons very quickly, so we need to have GA farm with the NE. Rheims or Gergovia. The GA farm will be our 2nd legendary, so we must be careful in the decision. Probably Gergovia has more chances after Bio it can grow to an impossible size, but we've already a lot of culture in Rheims and after Sushi growth isn't a problem anywhere.

We must think well to Astro, because our UB, the salon, gives a free Artist. Annoying if you hope for a GE or a GS, but useful for GAs.

I agree that we need at least the basic structures (Forge, Granary, Library and CH) in all the cities and that all the cities still lacking any of those must be immediately switched on build mode. I think that after Lib in 3 turns we can gather gold and decide what to do.

Before Mastiff starts again, we need to decide on Lib. I think Econ is the way to go.

 

[Shaandore]

Well, we do need some infrastructure. We just need to get to Liberalism first. So long as we do that, we've got out of the hole that forced us to build Wealth in new cities rather than granaries, lighthouses, etc.

For the most part, I consider gold multipliers overrated. They make sense in Paris and Bibracte, but the rest of the cities have 10-20 commerce at most. It's just not worth spending 200 hammers on a Bank because we'll run 100% research once we get enough production to pay for our cities.
On the other hand, we will want to whip the bank in Paris after Lib, and then have the discipline to work the grassland, farms, and all the food tiles.

Agree. That's why I wrote only 6 banks for Wall str. We need granaries, courthouses, and libraries everywhere, maybe a uni here and there, and observatories. Sometimes market for happiness or grocer for health, but not for the multipliers.

Merc+Repr will boost our economy very soon.

Durocortorum already has a courthouse, and the whipped forge will speed up FP. In that city, the gold boost from FP is the most important thing.

True, I forgot that we planned FP there.

Instead of commerce multipliers, we should consider building a couple of settlers for island fishing villages. We'll want them for sushi, and the third and fourth trade routes will need to be offshore.

Yes, definitely.

If Orleans is going to be a legendary city, it shouldn't build HE. Maybe Apache.
I've already stated my preference for NE in Thebes, because we need numbers rather than quality soon, in terms of great people

Agree.

Answers in red.

 

[Shaandore]

Apache is a perfect candidate for the HE by a military point of view. But i prefer quality later to random great people early. Thebes has so many WW that it will produce the next 2 GPersons very quickly, so we need to have GA farm with the NE. Rheims or Gergovia. The GA farm will be our 2nd legendary, so we must be careful in the decision. Probably Gergovia has more chances after Bio it can grow to an impossible size, but we've already a lot of culture in Rheims and after Sushi growth isn't a problem anywhere.

We must think well to Astro, because our UB, the salon, gives a free Artist. Annoying if you hope for a GE or a GS, but useful for GAs.

I agree that we need at least the basic structures (Forge, Granary, Library and CH) in all the cities and that all the cities still lacking any of those must be immediately switched on build mode. I think that after Lib in 3 turns we can gather gold and decide what to do.

Before Mastiff starts again, we need to decide on Lib. I think Econ is the way to go.

For now Econ seems like the best bet for me too. Astro can wait until we have some cities that can build salons. Until then we will do fine with Merc+Rep.

And you guys are right about NE and HE, ignore what I said about those.

 

[BLubmuz]

Instead of commerce multipliers, we should consider building a couple of settlers for island fishing villages. We'll want them for sushi, and the third and fourth trade routes will need to be offshore.

Hey, moment. For the 3rd TR we need Corps, which i think we'll research after Steel. Then the 4th TR is opened only by FM, which i think we'll use once we'll have a decent number of cities "infected" by corps.

Then, some reasoning trying to evaluate this scenario:
The fact that one of the objectives was "You have stolen EITHER Iron Working, OR Astronomy, OR Physics using espionage" derived by the mapmaker thought that we could have easily failed the Physics race, being the other continent more advanced.

And i think that many teams more aggressive than us will fail the Lib and the Econ Race. If we started the war with axes and cats our economy could have been ruined far before Edu. OTOH, our new cities would have become productive sooner, thus we can probaly have already recovered in this period. But we were very lucky with the Wonders and Shrines built on our continent. Until 4 turns ago. I think we did well also on trading. Obtain Nationalism is not obvious. In hindsight, if we have researched it ourselves after Optics we could have had enough advantage to finish the Taj. But not the prolongued GAge from the MoM, since the war with Ram couldn't have been anticipated. I think i will have fun starting this game from scratch or from a certain save and try different strategies.

 

[ZPV]

We're very close to maxing out "number of cities" maintenance. After 26, that won't increase in any of our cities - so cities only have to pay for themselves, which is a lot easier than covering an empire-wide maintenance increase.

I think we mean different things by economy. Breakeven currently produces 199bpt. That'll increase by at least 100 after the revolt. We'll still need to build some wealth, but that will always be the case.

I guess the possible Lib techs are
Economics
Astronomy
(Constitution, Replaceable Parts)

I'm not sure if Lib->Econ is any better than straight researching Economics, but I guess the denial will be worth it.

There is then a question of what to do with the Great Merchant. Save him for Sushi or pop a golden age? My instinct is the latter - it'll save at least two turns of revolt and provide a lot of extra research. Then we can starve out another GM in Gergovia during our 2-GP golden age.

Ok, NE in a food city rather than the mixed wonder city makes sense. I'm not sure which one, but I think Rheims is probably the better of the two because it already has a library and population.

 

[Shaandore]

Yes, we should start a Golden Age with the GM. (MoM is in Thebes, right?) Having a 12 turn GA will help a lot, and we can switch to Rep+Merc without Anarchy as a bonus.