SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

We're very close to maxing out "number of cities" maintenance. After 26, that won't increase in any of our cities - so cities only have to pay for themselves, which is a lot easier than covering an empire-wide maintenance increase.
We're already @ 7gpt for number of cities. Isn't it the max?
I think we mean different things by economy. Breakeven currently produces 199bpt. That'll increase by at least 100 after the revolt. We'll still need to build some wealth, but that will always be the case.

Not clear to me. I've tried to set any city on buildings, just to see what our present break even is: 3gpt @ 0 research. This is a fact, not an opinion. And this is our actual break even. Buiding whealth at this stage of the game, when all the cities need structures and the Empire needs military, is just a desperate move.
Then, i don't see how a civics change can give us that increase: the civics are more expensive and they don't give any economic benefit (strictly speaking, of course).

Yes, we should start a Golden Age with the GM. (MoM is in Thebes, right?) Having a 12 turn GA will help a lot, and we can switch to Rep+Merc without Anarchy as a bonus.

Sure, it can be a good move. But first i'd like to have Thebes secured. Much will depend by how many units we lose.

 

[ZPV]

We're already @ 7gpt for number of cities. Isn't it the max?

Not clear to me. I've tried to set any city on buildings, just to see what our present break even is: 3gpt @ 0 research. This is a fact, not an opinion. And this is our actual break even. Buiding whealth at this stage of the game, when all the cities need structures and the Empire needs military, is just a desperate move.
Then, i don't see how a civics change can give us that increase: the civics are more expensive and they don't give any economic benefit (strictly speaking, of course).

Sure, it can be a good move. But first i'd like to have Thebes secured. Much will depend by how many units we lose.

7gpt for cities of size 4 or greater. The smaller cities aren't quite maxed out yet.

We will always have to build wealth in some cities. Not all our cities, as at present, but not none either. Building wealth shows us very clearly that there is a trade-off between researching and building. You can't just build every structure or unit you feel like, because then we get the nightmare scenario of 3gpt @ 0% research.

The civic change gives us the increase because we get 24+ free specialists, each producing at least the 3 free beakers from Representation, not to mention hiring real specialists instead of citizens in most of our cities (I believe all but one city will be able to run at least a spy or scientist instead). The cost of the increased civic maintenance is 15gpt.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Okay, here's what I have so far:

- Lib @ 100% for 3 turns, take Econ if no one has it (check the turn before), otherwise Astro.

- Next turn whip a bank in Bibract, then market

- Build 2 units for Duro and Calleva. Longbows?!

- Whip forge in Duro, start FP

- Follows Shann's infrastructure plan as long as it doesn't jeopardize Lib in 3 turns.

- Start HE in Apache?

- Rheims for the NE. Start it now?

- Take Thebes.

 

[BLubmuz]

Okay, here's what I have so far:

- Lib @ 100% for 3 turns, take Econ if no one has it (check the turn before), otherwise Astro.
OK
- Next turn whip a bank in Bibract, then market
OK
- Build 2 units for Duro and Calleva. Longbows?!
OK LBs are fine, a couple more muskets can be of use.
- Whip forge in Duro, start FP
OK, but no more than 1 pop, and with good overflow
- Follows Shann's infrastructure plan as long as it doesn't jeopardize Lib in 3 turns.
OK, give priorities
- Start HE in Apache?
OK, if Lib is possible in 3
- Rheims for the NE. Start it now?
Can wait
- Take Thebes.

Hopefully. Good Luck! Let's hope our bad luck 'til now (GE for Taj) can be compensated by good odds!

Late night for me, late afternoon for you... evening? Not night yet there for sure.

 

[ZPV]

Remember for infrastructure though, only to build stuff we need right away. Too much long-term investment isn't what we need to tech our way out of the dark ages.

Calleva is in the middle of nowhere and doesn't need a unit. If we really need an anti-mounted counterunit somewhere, it'll be a pike.

Kill that Buddhist Missionary in our land. The war success might be the difference which makes Rammy talk a turn sooner.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Consider the missionary dead.

Build a pike.

City priorities (Shanns post):

Rouen needs to finish its forge, and get a courthouse, a library and a bank in this order. This city also needs a lighthouse, and is working an unimproved tile (in the meantime a desert hill is being improved 3 tiles from this place.) We also need to use the whip while we can.

We need banks in our core cities (Paris, Tours, Lyons, Orleans), and grocers too, especially in Paris. In addition we can't whip in Paris, so it is urgent. BTW one more Bank in Camulo and we have the 6 that is needed for Wall street. (with the one in Bibracte)

We should build Moai too, in 2 turns we get stone, so it will be relatively cheap. Isca would be a nice place for that, and it could be chopped.

So, Rouen, Paris, etc.

I'll make sure we have money for Lib in 3.

 

[ZPV]

We don't need to build all the banks now - only the most valuable ones. The rest are better delayed until one turn before Corporation, in favour of wealth.

We can whip a Bank in Paris after Lib - just make sure to run it at max food. We built those farms so it would grow back quickly. It's better than building it by working mines.

Rouen needs a forge, lighthouse and courthouse, and that's it.
Nowhere needs a library while we run 20% science.
A Bank will take a long time to pay off, and by the time it does, we won't have to run the slider so low any more.

Moai at Isca is an interesting one. If we didn't have a golden age coming up, I'd dismiss this.
Still, it seriously conflicts with the need for a granary, forge and courthouse in some order.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Killed the missionary
Started HE in Apache (plenty of money to get Lib in 3)
Swapped some tiles per Shan (Why I like SGOTM... you learn)

Ready to push the button and attack Thebes! (It's 6:00 pm here Blubmuz )

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Okay... first the bad news. Our spy was caught, so no pillage of horses. Also, a Ram caravel is threatening Avignon. I put our galley on the nets, and hope for the best.

Good news. Salads golden age ended. And crazy enough, Ram will sign a peace treaty. Screw him. Lost the first 3 muskets, then won at 24%, 26%, 55%, 62%... I have 5 muskets in Thebes, two who can be upgrade. City defender? Now that we have Thebes, Ram won't talk.

 

[ZPV]

Great news at Thebes.
FYI Caravels can't pillage.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Well, I didn't want to wait forever. I upgraded our muskets in Thebes to city defenders. We own it.

We're one turn from Lib and no one has Econ.

We sunk Rams caravel when it attacked our galley.

Bank is built in Bibracte, market started.

Ram will capitulate... So I'm leaving it here for a bit. Deal? Or not...

Oh, he'll take Venta with a catapult next turn.

 

[BLubmuz]

Only 3 losses for Thebes is good news.
Do we have the units to defend Thebes and to take Memphis? And maybe even Elephantine?
We don't want him to capitulate, we need all his lands. Post the save, please.

 

[Shaandore]

Well, I didn't want to wait forever. I upgraded our muskets in Thebes to city defenders. We own it.

We're one turn from Lib and no one has Econ.

We sunk Rams caravel when it attacked our galley.

Bank is built in Bibracte, market started.

Ram will capitulate... So I'm leaving it here for a bit. Deal? Or not...

Oh, he'll take Venta with a catapult next turn.

Finally, some good news!

Don't forget to check great people notifications at the beginning of the next turn. If Hammu spawns a GM, we need to choose some other tech. I'm not sure that Astro is the best choice. (Constitution maybe? they have the same base cost. We will need both sooner or later. I'm not sure about which is the one that the AIs are more willing to trade.)

If we make a deal with Ram, we should do it now, since he will get Venta and after that he might not want to make peace at all. Of course we don't want him to capitulate, just do a cease fire or a peace treaty. (I think we can do peace treaty since we won't redeclare in 10 turns, since we need to research steel and build some cannons before DoW). Being in peace for the following turns is better since he won't stay in war mode and spam LBs until we prepare our army.

Try to start infra where you can (while still getting lib next turn).
In most cities the 3 important buildings are granary, courthouse and forge. After that library if the city has commerce tiles. (@ZPV: By the time libraries are ready we will hopefully run at more than 20% science.)
We can whip Paris, but please don't do a hard whip. Paris is very slow at growing back. I'm wondering if a switch to Free Speech could be a good move now. Then we wouldn't have to worry about Paris so much. How many towns do we have? I can't open the save ATM, but if we have at least about 3 times the number of towns worked by Paris, then we should switch.

And don't forget about our island cities, they deserve some more attention.

 

[Folket]

The goal was two TS before christmas. Does not seem that feasable at the moment.

 

[BLubmuz]

The goal was two TS before christmas. Does not seem that feasable at the moment.

The advanced AI om the other continent forced us to weight our decisions, as the GE born in Egypt. Actually there was no chance we could have done anything for the latter, but we seem to have found a way to beat the former.

No, it's not possible, being Mastiff forced to play few turns every day. In a way or another we seem to be favoured by him being on the other side of the world. We need to recover the time right after Xmas.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

@Folk - Sorry I'm slow. It's been awhile. Not sure how long you want my TS to be, but I can play like this for a few more turns and hand off to someone faster. But, if everyone else has holiday stuff to do, I can keep going, too. I don't really celebrate... this assumes the Mayans were wrong, of course!

@Shan - Infra is started in several cities, the HE is 3 turns from done in Apache, some banks, CH, and forges are started or ongoing. There was a Lib started with hammers in it in Rouen, so I'm finishing it a bit out of your queue advice. (Going to start Moai in Ispa and start UofS somewhere for failgold next turn when we gets stone.) Also trying to get workers to the right spots so as not work unimproved tiles. I'll watch for a GM being born, but he doesn't have Econ this turn anyway. We will need to decide what the back-up tech should be...

@Blubmuz - 13 muskets healing with the medic in Thebes, so... I can't get a unit to save Venta, but I was under the impression we didn't really care. I can't really try and broker a peace deal yet. I can ask for all kinds of stuff, but he might accept! Maybe get Music?

Anyway, here's the save. By the time you guys dissect it, I'll be home ready to play again. Please be brutally honest with any mistakes no matter how small. I can take it, and it's how I get better.

 

[Shaandore]

Mastiff, you are doing great. You are not slow at all, there are many decisions to make now, and city micro is getting tedious. You should continue to play about ~20 turns total. (Or at the very least 15)
I'm the one on deck. I'll be free from tomorrow night until the 24th, (I'm celebrating with my family on the 24th), and I'll be relatively free again until new year's eve. I can pick up the game any time except on the 24th.

Maybe Blub is right and we should continue with the 13 muskets, and take some easy cities. I won't be able to open the save today, but if we have some spies left, we could try doing a revolt somewhere to bring down his defense.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Couple of thoughts on Thebes:
- Need a Lib to run the 2 free scientists until SM
- Need Theo for +50% workers from AW
- Need Theo + a missionary to run the AP
- Need DivRight for the SM

Ram has Theo and Music.

EDIT: Sal will also trade Theo+30g for Nat

 

[Folket]

I'm not blaming you for beeing slow. To my knbowledge my two TSes has been the slowest ones so far.

I just want us to be aware of the time.

I have not looked at the save. But if there are easy cities to take take them and then get the techs in a peacetreaty. Any idea on which turn an AP vote will come? Do we want to make peace before then so that we don't have to deal with the extra unhappiness?

 

[ZPV]

Couple of thoughts on Thebes:
- Need a Lib to run the 2 free scientists until SM
- Need Theo for +50% workers from AW
- Need Theo + a missionary to run the AP
- Need DivRight for the SM

Ram has Theo and Music.

EDIT: Sal will also trade Theo+30g for Nat

We get the effects of wonders, even without the tech or building that unlocks them.
So, it already has the two free scientists. (They don't take up specialist spots, as allocated by buildings.)
We already get the Hagia Sophia bonus, the Spiral Minaret bonus and the AP is still Buddhist and active.

Rammy also settled two great prophets there. More free stuff!

I wonder what Heliopolis is building. Also, if it's Versailles, will it be blocked because that city is now the capital?

Yes, since we have most of our musketeers left, we should use them. Memphis and Elephantine are on flatland, and should be attacked if vulnerable. The extra AP votes will be nice.
For those cities, cover will be more effective than combat 2 or 3 against longbows. It was just the insane defensive bonuses in Thebes that changed things there.

A couple of nitpicks:
In 2 turns, Paris will have 5 grassland towns. Those, the corn, and the floodplain should be the first seven tiles Paris works.

I should have spoken up about Durocortorum (which should work the sheep btw). A 2-pop whip to overflow into the FP would have fit our needs better.

The two home-defence musketeers should probably both hang out in the same city

Suggestions:
Chartres should 2-pop a Lighthouse, and use the overflow to build a Hindu Missionary for Rouen.
Avignon will want to whip a lighthouse and then go back to wealth.
One of the musketeers will want to promote, to heal faster.

For now, Venta is just a drain on our economy. If Ramesses wants to take it, and get spread out thinner, that's fine by me.

When it's time to make peace, we might see if he'll give us a city. He'll trade techs after the war anyway because of the civic bonus.

@Folket: the next AP vote is for the AP resident, in 5 turns.