SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

I already gave my opinion on the NW city: i never change 2 GL hills with an ice mine of iron. We're creative and we can build a library as first build. I can't give the exact turns needed to pop 2nd borders but i'm sure someone of you can do it. We can even build a fort on iron if we think we can gain some turn.

After currency we need CoL so we can whip some CH.

Build temples where we're already to the happy cap, calendar must wait. I'd like to trade for it.

Then, we need to explore the island before decide to send a settler there. But a city there will be a big boost for our economy if it's safe from Humbaba.

Road the jungle pigs, then mine those gems.

About the war with Brennus, with enough cats we can use any unit we like, axes and archers are enough. A few chariots. It's slow, but safe and faster than wait for knights. With enough cats you can set the defences to 0 in 1 turn and attack the next one. It worked well against protective archers mostly on hills last game.

 

[BLubmuz]

I agree, the Iron definitely has to be in the BFC of our next city. I actually like Folket's dotmap.

Me no.
If we want a crappy city just to hook iron we can build one on the ice 2E+1N of iron. It will be a true fishing village until MI and Sushi but it doesn't not ruin a good city as the one already planned can be and let us build a city to hook fish and deer in the NE.

Can anyone please test how many turns we need to expand to 2nd borders with a library first? and maybe a monument? Before we decide.

 

[ZPV]

Folket, please check my previous PPP so you see what I intended to do. You could just change things that you don't like in that text, and add all that you want to do in the next 7-8 turns.

I agree with Blub, we shouln't drop the line now, and for that, the most important component is a fast PPP from active player as soon as a turnset gets played. (So we have things to discuss)

I would like to start the discussion on how we want to take out Brennus.
We can do:
- all out war
- war while teching to lib
We can use:
- cats
- trebs
- knights only
If we use siege, we can add:
- axes and swords
- maces
- xbows

I think that we are late for a knights only war, Brennus will have lbs by the time we can strike (unless we can bulb some techs). To strike with catapults, we would have to start building troops now, wich is painful, since our economy will get back on its feet 3 turns from now.

Doing an all out war with siege is slow, thus it slows us down for a long time. So if I had to decide now, I would go with trebs+whatever (maces preferably) while teching to lib. But my views can be altered with the right arguments

Education is our tech goal, not lib. Lib can wait so we can take something big from it, if the opportunity arises. We need to march to the drumbeat of tech, so there will never be an all-out war.
Which units we use will depend on our tech path, and when we want to capture the cities. I consider the hammer costs of a mounted war and a cats+stuff war roughly equal if they both face longbows - just by looking at how much we'll want in our stack (say, 15 knights vs 15 cats + 9 maces).
If that's the case, then we look to timing+speed. When do we want to start paying for the extra cities? (The other advantage of mounted is that we don't really need to switch to Theocracy).

I don't consider Engineering to be a high enough priority over Education.

(Yes, knights will face longbows. They're not too scary without hills - it's pikes and castles that put a hard limit on the effectiveness of knights; before pikes we can still expand faster than we can afford.)

I got the save and had a closer look.

Would it not have been better to have farm on N and NW of Paris to get the corn irrigated. It seems like Paris will need some farms as it does not have enough food.

I will post a PPP later today.

The goal is not to get Paris to size 20. Of course it doesn't have enough food for that.
The question is, what will our long-term happy cap be?
I'm taking it as read that we'll ignore the hills, except when we need to build something really important, so there's actually a decent amount of food, so long as we prioritise working the grassland first. Post-Civil Service, it'll take 7 or 8 turns growing from size 12 to 13, and then after that growth will be too slow to mention. Is that enough?

 

[Folket]

If we have library from turn 1 it will take 25 turns. for every two turns the library is delay it take 1 turn longer.

I prefer catapults as well.

BLubmuz, from what I can find all you say is that the settler should wait for IW and settle iron if we find any.

 

[ZPV]

I already gave my opinion on the NW city: i never change 2 GL hills with an ice mine of iron. We're creative and we can build a library as first build. I can't give the exact turns needed to pop 2nd borders but i'm sure someone of you can do it. We can even build a fort on iron if we think we can gain some turn.

After currency we need CoL so we can whip some CH.

Build temples where we're already to the happy cap, calendar must wait. I'd like to trade for it.

It'll be 30-35 turns to get the second border pop.

No city has more than 3.5 maintenance at the moment. Not enough to make courthouses worthwhile. Raising our overall happy cap is worth more.

 

[ZPV]

No spot near the iron/horses/deer is so powerful we'd want to build the Heroic Epic there. The short term has to take priority. We'll make up the production difference of a weaker city there by capturing the barb cities significantly earlier.

I think I prefer Folket's spot to one on the coast with the iron. It'll still be a moderate production city - one deer is enough to work both grass hills, the horse and the iron; the other one can be ceded to another city when it's grown to size.

This leads me to another point. We should be careful to try and milk a 10XP unit from the barb cities to unlock Heroic Epic.

 

[Shaandore]

I agree that Engineering is too far away.

ZPV, do you have experience on knights vs lbs war? A CG1 lb in a 40% culture city with fortify bonus has 12.6 strength on flatland. Our knight which has been built in a city with barracks+stable (our nastiest unit) would have just 12 strength. Now if we don't spam stables (which I prefer not to) those odds are worse. And I didn't account for the 1-2 hill cities, and the occasional CG2 guy in the 60% or 80% city.

With knights, I would prefer to strike before Brennus gets lbs, which (for me) seems impossible now. It's no problem if he can upgrade some guys, but the war better be over by then.

I think a catapult+sword-axe/mace war is safer. Fewer losses, more guys to upgrade for our later war with Ramesses. And we can strike sooner, so the cities obtained will contribute earlier. Don't forget that we will need to build swords anyway to capture the barb cities.

On the north cities:
I can feel the pain of losing a very nice city, but we just can't postpone getting the barb cities. Settling another fishing village is an option, but a bit costy option. Why not make the compromise that Folket suggested? It only loses 1 green hill (not two).

@Blub: You wrote earlier that we should build temples. I don't think that this is a good idea, since gems will give us a happiness soon, and every forge gives us one more, which is cheaper for us. Temples are too costy without spiritual. The +2 happy will almost solve our happy problems for a little while, after that Calendar is the thing we should get. Or we could trade for Monarchy, or let the others research Calendar for us, while we build our army and tech towards Edu. It really depends on our happiness needs.

@ZPV: What I really meant with the lib thing is only the tech path, not lib as end goal

@Folket: Please start checking resource trades, especially after currency is researched. We might have some resource tiles without roads, we should make it a priority to hook them up so we can trade those for some money. (Eg. deer will be good trade bait)

@All: we should consider the diplomatic consequences of the war. I guess Ramesses won't be bribed, but we might lose him as a trading partner when we eliminate Brennus. We also need the barb cities to provide trade routes on west coast while we are warring with Brennus.

one more thing:
when will we get a Great Person farm set up? we need national epic sooner or later in some nice food city. The usefulness of great people decays over time. IMO at least one Great Scientist for Education bulb is compulsory. The other guys could be saved for corporations/shrine(s)/culture bombs.

 

[ZPV]

I agree that Engineering is too far away.

ZPV, do you have experience on knights vs lbs war? A CG1 lb in a 40% culture city with fortify bonus has 12.6 strength on flatland. Our knight which has been built in a city with barracks+stable (our nastiest unit) would have just 12 strength. Now if we don't spam stables (which I prefer not to) those odds are worse. And I didn't account for the 1-2 hill cities, and the occasional CG2 guy in the 60% or 80% city.

With knights, I would prefer to strike before Brennus gets lbs, which (for me) seems impossible now. It's no problem if he can upgrade some guys, but the war better be over by then.

I think a catapult+sword-axe/mace war is safer. Fewer losses, more guys to upgrade for our later war with Ramesses. And we can strike sooner, so the cities obtained will contribute earlier. Don't forget that we will need to build swords anyway to capture the barb cities.

@All: we should consider the diplomatic consequences of the war. I guess Ramesses won't be bribed, but we might lose him as a trading partner when we eliminate Brennus. We also need the barb cities to provide trade routes on west coast while we are warring with Brennus.

Yeah, I have experience with knights vs longbows. It's not as overpowering as Cuirs vs longbows, but is more technologically convenient. You will lose a few units, but 12 vs 12.6 are not suicide odds. You win enough battles that you start getting Combat 3 knights pretty soon, and chances are we'll have at least one Combat 4 knight by the end of the campaign. Stables are definitely important - accumulating XP in our horde is crucial. We'll only use a few cities to build units, but they'll have to focus hard on them. That's what production cities are for.

The big difference to a late catapult war is capturing something like 3 cities (i.e. a border city and two core cities) in the first 5 turns of the war, if he only has 2-3 longbows and a couple of lesser units per city. I don't know how to communicate how useful that ability is.
On the other hand, if Brennus has a big stack of longbows waiting for us, cats are going to be more effective.

I don't think Brennus's cities will contribute much more than they cost before the industrial age, even if we capture them early. That's why I push for a late war.

Yes, Ramesses will stop trading with us when Brennus is dead, but ideally we'll time the Celtic war so that the Egyptian one can come right after.

one more thing:
when will we get a Great Person farm set up? we need national epic sooner or later in some nice food city. The usefulness of great people decays over time. IMO at least one Great Scientist for Education bulb is compulsory. The other guys could be saved for corporations/shrine(s)/culture bombs.

This is one of the reasons to rush for the Hanging Gardens in Lyons. (Aqueduct requires Masonry.) Once we get it, we can start to accumulate GS points in Rheims without worrying about overtaking the GE. A proper GP farm will have to wait until we consider it right for a burst in Caste+Pacifism. The Taj Mahal golden age is an ideal time for that.

 

[Folket]

How much should I sell resources for? What are we willing to pay for resources?

 

[Shaandore]

How much should I sell resources for? What are we willing to pay for resources?

We don't really need resources, maybe a happy resource, but I wouldn'T pay for it. Just give them some health resource for it.

Selling is worth it even for 3-4 gpt IMO (if we don't need the resource). They can always be renegotiated 10 turns later to milk some more money

 

[Shaandore]

Yeah, I have experience with knights vs longbows. It's not as overpowering as Cuirs vs longbows, but is more technologically convenient. You will lose a few units, but 12 vs 12.6 are not suicide odds. You win enough battles that you start getting Combat 3 knights pretty soon, and chances are we'll have at least one Combat 4 knight by the end of the campaign. Stables are definitely important - accumulating XP in our horde is crucial. We'll only use a few cities to build units, but they'll have to focus hard on them. That's what production cities are for.

The big difference to a late catapult war is capturing something like 3 cities (i.e. a border city and two core cities) in the first 5 turns of the war, if he only has 2-3 longbows and a couple of lesser units per city. I don't know how to communicate how useful that ability is.
On the other hand, if Brennus has a big stack of longbows waiting for us, cats are going to be more effective.

I don't think Brennus's cities will contribute much more than they cost before the industrial age, even if we capture them early. That's why I push for a late war.

Yes, Ramesses will stop trading with us when Brennus is dead, but ideally we'll time the Celtic war so that the Egyptian one can come right after.


This is one of the reasons to rush for the Hanging Gardens in Lyons. (Aqueduct requires Masonry.) Once we get it, we can start to accumulate GS points in Rheims without worrying about overtaking the GE. A proper GP farm will have to wait until we consider it right for a burst in Caste+Pacifism. The Taj Mahal golden age is an ideal time for that.

I know how nice it is when you can get 3-4 cities on the first turn of war, I have done it many times wtih cuirs/cavs. It's just that Brennus has a lot of land to backfill on the south/west, and he will have ~10 cities. For such an attack we will need ~30 knights at least. I'm still not sure that we can make it in time. We will need to insert some economic techs, so we don't fall back (Civil service for Bureaucracy), and Philosophy to secure lib comes to mind. We also need Monarchy, Machinery, Feudalism, Guilds, Horseback Riding, maybe Aesthetics and Literature. Some can be traded, but it's a long list.

On the other hand, we will need some swords to get those barb cities. Why not use them?

The best point you made is IMO the fact that Brennus's cities won't contribute much if we just take them now. It might be a good idea to wait until he clears the jungle and matures the cottages for us. And it pretty much means that he will get maces, so we have to wait until we can go into war with something superior.

The Hanging Gardens is a good idea, we should research Masonry right after currency.

 

[ZPV]

Yeah, we should take the economic techs first (CS, Literature, Education, etc), and then attack with what's convenient.

 

[Folket]

I am kinda confused.

Brennus is worst enemy of Ramsses. Why would we loose Ramsess as trading partner if we attack Brennus?

we have two chops next to Paris. Should we chop them into a temple in Paris or granary in Tours?

I would probably send one more worker to the iron. Or is it better to make some improvements. Seems like Lyon and Orleans will soon lack improved tiles to work.

I would like to whip Forge in Rheims.

Shall we get barracks in Orleans and Lyon?

 

[ZPV]

I am kinda confused.

Brennus is worst enemy of Ramsses. Why would we loose Ramsess as trading partner if we attack Brennus?

If we kill the only other civ that Ramesses knows, then he won't trade techs to us because he'll think they are a monopoly.

we have two chops next to Paris. Should we chop them into a temple in Paris or granary in Tours?

I think the best thing to do is to put one chop into Paris and one into Tours. A second chop into Tours would be a waste.
However, keep Paris on Research. When we switch to Org Rel, then the hammers can go into a market, which I guess we'll whip because the happiness cap hasn't caught up yet. It doesn't need many raw hammers to turn that into a 2 pop whip.
With the coming calendar resources, I believe another temple would be a waste of hammers. We also need to save some forests for Oxford.

I would probably send one more worker to the iron. Or is it better to make some improvements. Seems like Lyon and Orleans will soon lack improved tiles to work.

Lyons and Orleans are currently at their happiness caps, so they can't work any more tiles. The Iron and its resources are the first priority.
However, they will need them when we connect the gems. To put it bluntly, I'd be happy to see you build two or three more workers soon, so that we can keep our growing cities improved.

I would like to whip Forge in Rheims.

Sure. A Library is next after that.
Just make sure to work all the available power tiles (the resources) each turn. The rest of the citizens (like the mine this turn) are happy to be whipped.

Shall we get barracks in Orleans and Lyon?

We already have barracks in Orleans. I think we'll probably want to build all three swords for the barb cities here.
Lyons has other things to do - maybe a worker, and then aqueduct->HG, to get that GE out faster.

 

[Folket]

Shall I plan for playing 10 turns?

 

[Folket]

Current PPP
Reims
Bautrupp1 ?! build road on pigs athen help with gems. After that go back and build cut jungle build pasture. Other worker outside Reims build mine on gems and then improve pigs.
Whip Forge when available. (should be next turn. ) Then start library.

Paris
Build research. Work cottages. Growing to hit size 9. (Is temple really a waste? 1 turn after gems we will be at happy cap again. ) Workers finish choping and then building cottages in shared squares.

Orleans
Change output to +4F so it will grow in 5 turns (when we get gems). then build a worker and next build swordmen.

Lyons
Change from working sheep to work mine. Gives and increase of research by 4. We could get a library here before we get masonry. But I guess that might delay masonry one turn. Monitor output to make sure city grow on turn we get gems.

New city
work horses, build granary.
Worker build road towards iron.
Worker outside Orleans. Run up and build two turns on deer camp. Then help with iron. (road on iron done turn before border pop.

Tours
Work pigs and Fish. Shop into granary. Then start library and whip when I'm able to whip down to size 2.

Empire
Check for resource trade every turn. I'm uncertain on what tech trade to do.
Research currency, then masonry. Then I do not see a consensus. I would tech construction to get those catapults. But it seems like half the team want to go for a later war and get more economic techs.

 

[Shaandore]

Current PPP
Reims
Bautrupp1 ?! build road on pigs athen help with gems. After that go back and build cut jungle build pasture. Other worker outside Reims build mine on gems and then improve pigs.
Whip Forge when available. (should be next turn. ) Then start library.

Paris
Build research. Work cottages. Growing to hit size 9. (Is temple really a waste? 1 turn after gems we will be at happy cap again. ) Workers finish choping and then building cottages in shared squares.

We won't be at happy cap, forge gives 1 happy for gems. Market is better, because this is a commerce city, and with Calendar it will give more happiness.

Orleans
Change output to +4F so it will grow in 5 turns (when we get gems). then build a worker and next build swordmen.

Lyons
Change from working sheep to work mine. Gives and increase of research by 4. We could get a library here before we get masonry. But I guess that might delay masonry one turn. Monitor output to make sure city grow on turn we get gems.

New city
work horses, build granary.
Worker build road towards iron.
Worker outside Orleans. Run up and build two turns on deer camp. Then help with iron. (road on iron done turn before border pop.

Make sure that the city is hooked up before settling if possible.We will need the roads ready for that, since we don't settle on the coast

Tours
Work pigs and Fish. Shop into granary. Then start library and whip when I'm able to whip down to size 2.
It's okay to whip a granary, but try keeping this city at size 4-5 when possible so it can do what we built it for: improve cottages for Paris.

Empire
Check for resource trade every turn. I'm uncertain on what tech trade to do.
Research currency, then masonry. Then I do not see a consensus. I would tech construction to get those catapults. But it seems like half the team want to go for a later war and get more economic techs.
There is no consensus yet, so we should work on this! Don't forget to use binary research for Masonry though.

Good plan!
answers in red

 

[Folket]

More confusion.

Binary research? Is that a word for using only 0% or 100%?

So we will chop a forest into research, that is better then temple? Our happy cap is at 7. We are size 8 now. One turn after gems we will hit size 9 and happy cap will be size 9.

 

[Shaandore]

One more thing: we need more workers. How about postponing the library in Rheims? You could start a worker and whip it into the forge.

 

[Shaandore]

More confusion.

Binary research? Is that a word for using only 0% or 100%?

So we will chop a forest into research, that is better then temple? Our happy cap is at 7. We are size 8 now. One turn after gems we will hit size 9 and happy cap will be size 9.

Yes Binary is just that. Use 100% or 0% all times.
One can not chop a forest into research, those hammers will be banked for next normal build (unit or building).

I see the problem with Paris happy cap now. I still think that market is better. You could work mines with the new citizens to slow down growth to size 10, and increase market build speed. (There is a grass hill and a riverside plains hill improved in the BFC).