SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[Folket]

If we look at the HoF for normal speed, standard size, culture victory people end the fastest games around about 1500. And they do not research past liberalism.

The problem is that we need both culture and research. Culture can come from artists/great artists which is slower and we still need some other great people so we can count on getting 15 GAs. Or it can come from cottages with culture slider. Which at the moment is out of the question as we would do 0 research. But it is faster so we can delay it until we have a functioning specialist economy.

I prefer artist/GA route since it does not fast commerce in other cities, but it will require us to start to plan for it. And 50k culture is a big thing. It is probably 10 turns of late game research. But there is no way of making 50k research into 50k culture in one city. In the process we will probably loose 200+k research in a big empire.

Our 3th culture city will be our slowest as well. Either we have 3 cottage cities, 2 cottages cities and one GA farm, 1 cottage city and 2 GA farms or 3 GA farms.

Anything using cottage cities will require us to run culture. Which we probably do not want to do. But 2-3 cottage cities and 1 GA farm is an alternative if we have strong enough specialist economy. The 3 GA farm approach suffers from diminishing return on GPP.

So 10 artists, 4 cathedrals and free speech generates 160 culture a turn. That is not good enough. With Sistine Chapel they will generate 240 a turn. We will have to get the Sistine Chapel.

We might be able to get 10 great artists. But it is a close call since we need plenty of these. That will require the artists to work for 125 turns. I guess we can farm Paris later in the game and turn it into a GA farm. This will also require us to run caste system for the rest of the game.

Brennus city Iron/corn should be a good GA farm. We should probably have it started as soon as possible. I guess same is true if we go for cottage culture.

Perhaps cottage culture with sid sushi is the best way to go. We can will have massive happiness from 100% culture and food from sid sushi will allow us to run amny merchants/scientists.

But as I said, culture takes time. We need to start to plan for it now.

 

[Folket]

I have never heard "out of the question" mean "of course" before. It is good to start with what is obvious and then get more detailed from there.

Demographics seems to position us on top when it comes to economy and only one opponent is close to us. I suspect it is Ramesses since he seems to have researched as well as we have.

There is an opening to sell deer to Brennus. The fish deal might be cancelled now. If so it should be done to give us more gold for less resources. Probably sell fish instead of deer.

 

[BLubmuz]

Folket, we have to play unil FT1.
This means that any LC can have 4 cathedrals, but we can also build Broadway and R&R in 2 of them. There's also the Eiffel, which aside its huge cpt gives free Broadcast towers in any city. The Hermitage is used in any Culture game, we have just to build it in the right city.

BTW, you're speaking of Sistine: what about try to be first on Music, provided it's not too late?

Then, don't forget the power of MI and Sushi in a late culture game. MI is great when you build culture and Sushi doesn't needs any comment.

The only alternative would be Diplo (UN i think), but without vassals i don't like it. In any case we can wait to decide, but not much, you're right.

For now i see Orleans as a good LC, thanks mostly to the Oracle, which is already generating 16 cpt (1000 years are passed). Then, i don't have many ideas on the other 2 LCs. Probably Rheims can be a good GP farm and running artists it can be an LC. BTW, why not build the Colossus there? it's a cheap wonder with some benefit, but firstly it generates a lot of culture.

I see all our continent in our hands, with the appropriate timing and both our neighbours destroyed. Then we need to see how the other continent is before to take a decision, but it can be too late.

 

[Folket]

In my calculation I did assume 4 cathedrals, free speech and Sistine Chapel.

It is that if we settle on 2 LCs we will still need to get plenty of GAs. If we want a third one without culture slider I do not think we will be able to generate enough GAs.

We have three questions in from of us.
1. Where should the culture come from? Cottages or artists?

2. Should we have 2 or 3 LCs?

3. What cities?

I think we should start with a vote so that we know where everyone on the team is. Then we can take this week to discuss and reach a consensus.

 

[Folket]

I vote
1. Artists
2. 2
3. Brennus corn/iron jungle city. With farms this city can grow huge. Second: Orleans or Rheims?

 

[Folket]

A third source would be espionage. It just seems unreliable.

What is wrong with a diplomatic victory. Why would we need vassals?

Would it not be enough to leave 2 AIs with a single city while we surround them and just wait out the game. And then kill them off after the vote, which we will win having 99% of the votes.

 

[ZPV]

Immediate concerns:

1) Tech after Civil Service. It makes some sense to build wealth to speed up CS, but then it'll be time to build more stuff.
Possibilities:
Calendar - we have a lot of calendar resources and the Mausoleum of Mausollos is too powerful to ignore. However, if Ramesses builds it for us, that would be save us the hammers, and we might be able to trade for it soon anyway.
Aesthetics->Literature - Building Nat. Epic will speed up the great scientist in Rheims, but only a little bit because we're waiting for the GE from Lyons. If we can get a 10XP unit from the barbs, the Heroic Epic will speed up unit production when we go to war considerably. Someone has built the Statue of Zeus, so the Music Great Artist is not guaranteed. Aesthetics will give Ramesses more wonders to build for us, albeit expiring ones.
Paper->Education - it will take 44 turns to get a GS to lightbulb Edu. That's not ideal. We could just flat research Paper->Education by then, but that seems like a long time for our empire not to do very much.
Meditation->Philosophy - is it worth two turns of revolt (i.e. to Pacif+Caste, and then back to OR+Slavery) to speed up the GE, GS and hence Education? I think it will be. However, we only need Philo in about 25 turns' time for that, so we have time to research something else first.

I think my preferred tech path is something like: Aesth->Lit->(Calendar if we can't trade for it)->Medi->Philo. I don't think Music is a luxury we can afford.

2) An offshore city.
We have enough foreign trade routes for most of our cities, so the benefit is not so great as in isolation. However, any 2-food city should pay for itself quickly, so a fish-sheep one will be worth it anyway.

3) The barb city. I'd love to be able to milk one of our swordsmen to 9XP on it, so that the warrior we saw on the northwest island will be enough to get up to 10. If Brennus threatens it with both archers, I won't be able to, however.

4) General city management.
It's a trade-off between building stuff, and growing. e.g. Lyons needs to build stuff. Orleans needs to grow. We always need more workers.

 

[ZPV]

Folket, we have to play unil FT1.
This means that any LC can have 4 cathedrals, but we can also build Broadway and R&R in 2 of them. There's also the Eiffel, which aside its huge cpt gives free Broadcast towers in any city. The Hermitage is used in any Culture game, we have just to build it in the right city.

BTW, you're speaking of Sistine: what about try to be first on Music, provided it's not too late?

Then, don't forget the power of MI and Sushi in a late culture game. MI is great when you build culture and Sushi doesn't needs any comment.

The only alternative would be Diplo (UN i think), but without vassals i don't like it. In any case we can wait to decide, but not much, you're right.

For now i see Orleans as a good LC, thanks mostly to the Oracle, which is already generating 16 cpt (1000 years are passed). Then, i don't have many ideas on the other 2 LCs. Probably Rheims can be a good GP farm and running artists it can be an LC. BTW, why not build the Colossus there? it's a cheap wonder with some benefit, but firstly it generates a lot of culture.

I see all our continent in our hands, with the appropriate timing and both our neighbours destroyed. Then we need to see how the other continent is before to take a decision, but it can be too late.

Modern age wars are fast and cheap. We could capture every city on the other continent in 10 turns if we needed to, with tanks and bombers and a couple of beachheads.

I'm really not sure about culture. Maybe it'll be cheap because Sushi and Civ. Jewellers can provide the bulk of the culture we need, pretty much free. (Built Culture does not go through multipliers, and is thus mostly irrelevant.) Maybe it'll be expensive and we'll need to run the slider and generate more GAs than just for 2 cities.

In my calculation I did assume 4 cathedrals, free speech and Sistine Chapel.

It is that if we settle on 2 LCs we will still need to get plenty of GAs. If we want a third one without culture slider I do not think we will be able to generate enough GAs.

We have three questions in from of us.
1. Where should the culture come from? Cottages or artists?

2. Should we have 2 or 3 LCs?

3. What cities?

I think we should start with a vote so that we know where everyone on the team is. Then we can take this week to discuss and reach a consensus.

1. It depends. A mixture of artists, buildings, corporations.
2. 3 if cheap. 2 if expensive. 1 + 1 espionaged if very expensive.
3. Orleans for sure. It has a ton of forests to chop into wonders which will double their culture. The rest I don't know.

A third source would be espionage. It just seems unreliable.

What is wrong with a diplomatic victory. Why would we need vassals?

Would it not be enough to leave 2 AIs with a single city while we surround them and just wait out the game. And then kill them off after the vote, which we will win having 99% of the votes.

We're skilled enough to do an Espionage Legendary City - it just needs a bit of management - just like we're skilled enough to pull off a Diplo Victory if we choose to.

We cannot win a Diplo Victory if we have so many votes we could just vote ourselves in.

 

[BLubmuz]

We cannot win a Diplo Victory if we have so many votes we could just vote ourselves in.

This is the point: it's not like in Vanilla or Warlords, where you can win a "Diplomation" victory.

Since the Diplo is always impredictable (sure, i know it's not completely but you always have a margin of RNG) and we can find ourselves in trouble with the 2 VCs fulfilled in 1 turn, i'm proposing culture+military(conquest or domination, the easier and faster between the 2). On a last point, i think that a true diplo will be close to impossible, being the other continent probably a Confucian love fest.

Please bear in mind that the culture games are always over when you researched Nationalism but the AI can arrive to AL or rocketry, sometimes to Electricity. If we do well it's doable.

Then, i don't see Brennus' Iron corn as a great LC: you need farms to have food, when Rheims or Lyons are plenty of food and can work cottages. Also, it will be late when we'll start to put culture there, when our cities are already to a decent point.

 

[Folket]

I see why a diplo victory is not that desirable then. Then my preferred victory is a space colony.

If we are aiming for a 1700 AD win we do not have that much time to build wonders in Orleans and expect them to give double culture. But if we decide on Orleans it is probably worth it to get as many culture buildings as possible there as soon as possible. i.e. build library and then continue with anything that gives culture.

ZPV, can you give us some number on what will be needed to produce legendary culture with espionage? Have you done this before?

Reason why everything is building wealth in the save is that 4 cities just finished something so I left it up to your TS on what to do next.

 

[BLubmuz]

I see why a diplo victory is not that desirable then. Then my preferred victory is a space colony.

Space is my preferred VC and i have some spot in the HoF with it. I think that a late 1600 or early 1700 is doable. Paired with a military VC can be perfectly timed. I'd prefer it over anything else, but it's just my personal mood. No need to spawn GAs, no need to sacrifice anything: just time research with SS production, the military is not a problem when you can load transports with marines and subs with missiles.

 

[Shaandore]

We can time culture and diplo too. Why would we wait for space? It takes a lot of time. It just won't be competitive. The other VC should obviously be domination. If the RNG screwes us, we can postpone taking those 5 cities for a couple turns.

 

[Folket]

So the UN. How will it work? We can still be general secretary but we will be unable to choose the diplomatic win option?

How many turns does travel to Alpha Centaury take? 8? Still seems better then a cultural.

 

[ZPV]

I'd like some comments on the tech path.
Once that's sorted out, adjustments to the city management will be relatively easy.

Paris:
Grow on the cottages and farms. Build wealth.
I'd like to save the northern four forests for Oxford. I think the southern two can now be turned into a farm and cottage.
Those will be enough to build two Monasteries.

Orleans:
Grow. A Hindu Temple is a possible build since the sistine culture doubles too.

Lyons:
Build workers/settlers. It's at its happiness cap.

Tours:
Library. Run two scientists with the extra citizens when they grow.

Rheims:
This will want to build the National Epic. Before that, a work boat, to explore the northeast.

Marseilles:
Not sure yet, after the forge. Possibly Wealth or a Barracks.

Apache:
double-chop into a granary, then a forge.
The workers will then build a winery and a pasture before some move on to Uzbek.

Uzbek:
If we get it, improve the gems, then chop the sugars.
I'm tempted to farm some of the other grassland.

-----
The galley will take a peek at the archipelago before returning for one or two of our victorious units (since we'll want to take the most experienced one to try and get it up to 10XP).
The swords will heal for one turn. If there's a Celtic stack, they'll march right away after that. Otherwise, they'll wait another turn, so they can attack at full XP.

 

[ZPV]

So the UN. How will it work? We can still be general secretary but we will be unable to choose the diplomatic win option?

Yeah, that's right.
To allow the vote to come up, we have to be under 66% of the vote, and there have to be two other free civs.
The vote will be cancelled if we break those conditions in between turns.
Vassals are obligated to vote for their masters if they're not up for election.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'd like some comments on the tech path.
It's difficult. You haven't plannned a tech path. Perhaps you mean some proposal? Or is it the usual copy/paste error?
Once that's sorted out, adjustments to the city management will be relatively easy.

Orleans:
Grow. A Hindu Temple is a possible build since the sistine culture doubles too.
nothing against a temple, but in case Ramesses is so gentle to build the AP, i think we'll adopt the AP religion. But this can be later. In any case, provided we manage Sistine, it will work with any religion we choose.

Rheims:
This will want to build the National Epic. Before that, a work boat, to explore the northeast.
I doubt there's something interesting, but it can be used later on a seafood, IIRC.

Marseilles:
Not sure yet, after the forge. Possibly Wealth or a Barracks.
Barracks. I'm a bit worried that we don't have enough when the time comes. And it's not too far in future.
Apache:
double-chop into a granary, then a forge.
The workers will then build a winery and a pasture before some move on to Uzbek.
I think the first duty for the workers are 2 roads on the forest and on the forested hill. If you can let our victorius units heal, you can gain a couple turns. In any case, we need to road that path.

Uzbek:
If we get it, improve the gems, then chop the sugars.
I'm tempted to farm some of the other grassland.
Can you delete the "if"? and substitute it with "when"?

-----
The galley will take a peek at the archipelago before returning for one or two of our victorious units (since we'll want to take the most experienced one to try and get it up to 10XP).
The swords will heal for one turn. If there's a Celtic stack, they'll march right away after that. Otherwise, they'll wait another turn, so they can attack at full XP.

Yes, it's a good idea, unless you can milk a sword to 10 XP on Uzbek. What about a settler for that island? I like the dotmap, but we need to know exactly the land before to decide.

Yeah, that's right.
To allow the vote to come up, we have to be under 66% of the vote, and there have to be two other free civs.
The vote will be cancelled if we break those conditions in between turns.
Vassals are obligated to vote for their masters if they're not up for election.

That's why i don't like diplo in BtS. Vassals are often not easy to have, some AI refuses even with a single city surrounded by a big SoD. I think that the 8 turns of travel can be spent in researching non-SS techs needed for FT1. IIRC Robotics, laser and stealth or something.

I will try a Space game for my HoF, just to refresh. I'm playing Rome and medieval total war at present, so i'm a bit rusty on details.

 

[ZPV]

@Blubmuz:
The tech stuff is a few posts up, #767, but it kind of got lost in the discussion.

 

[Folket]

I prefer to tech to music and trade for calendar and meditation.

Also the two workers next to Apache should build roads. if on move to the hill SSW of Apache and the other one build road on the grassland you will be able to heal for two turns (which is enough if you give the guy moving into the city this turn a promotion) and then move to the next city in two turns.

 

[Shaandore]

I think we need to plan for the knights war now. The key economic tech we need before that is CS for Bureau. Everything else is nice, but problematic: we might lose the chance to war with knights (Waiting for renaissance to break out won't be a winning strategy IMO: a 20 city empire in 500AD that develops for 800 years is much stronger than a 20 city empire in 1300 AD where 12 cities have just been conquered).

Aesth->Lit would be good for the "epic" national wonders, Philo for slowing lib race and Caste system, etc. But all these could be teched while we build our army. I vote for CS->Feudalism->Machinery->Guilds (and horseback riding, but hopefully that can be traded)

If we squeeze in something, it should be after CS since Bureau will speed up everything.

So my vote goes to CS first, and then Guilds ASAP.

 

[BLubmuz]

@Blubmuz:
The tech stuff is a few posts up, #767, but it kind of got lost in the discussion.

mmh yes and i even read it, but not consider it when comment your PPP.

The path to Music is interesting and soon Calendar and Construction will be avaiable. Brennus has a lot of calendar resources and the AI usually goes fast to contruction.
It's highly probable that Ramesses is already building the MoM.

I'd prefer a cat and axe war to a knight war. If you look at the map, you can see a lot of jungles and hills. The knights will be fully exploited only South of Bibracte. Then, let's not forget that Guilds requires also Machinery, thus it's a long path. Then, we need HBR and it's not assured we can trade for it. OTOH, Machinery opens XBows and mainly Maces, so i think we can research it quickly and hope to trade for construction.

We need also to trade for archery or research it ourselves. Some archer is needed with the stacks and to be kept as MP. Thus i don't realy know if we have to prioritize the path to Music. The SoZ is already built, thus it's highly probable we lost the race.

Another point is optics. The other continent seems well advanced and we can maybe have some interesting trade option. We need to consider it in our path. Also, the circumnavigation bonus can be important if we need to warring against the other continent. Our continent should give us some 35% of land area, looking at the map.

I like warring with mounted, but knights must be backed up. We can start with maces and cats and the knights will follow, just in time to take the cities S of Bibracte. There're 2 we can't see.