SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

I know the game mechanics well enough to affirm that you can't have any certainty about the right kind and number of units to take that city.

I'm just saying that we must be prepared to lose 2 units for any defender and that the others must be there to finish the job. Obviously, 4 chariots can't do the same damage of 4 WE, but cost less than 1 half. Probably the cats are a good solution, since in any case they cause collateral. They cost 50H and a WE 60H, so they are preferable. With 3 it's almost assured that any other unit will survive.

Another factor is the time needed to transport units there and another one the maintenance cost outside our borders. So, the less units we can use, the faster and cheap is "Operation Hades". Let me try to see what we need if we use 3 cats: 2 melee (1 axe is almost landed), 1 WE (just because it's already in the area) 1 HA for its good withdrawal chances and 2 chariots just to be safe. And the GG and 1 archer for MP later.
Total 10 units not counting the axe. 5 more trips. If we gather them in Gao the trip is 3 turns back and forth, so (the galley needs 2 turns from now to arrive 1W of Gao landing the axe on the hill) a total of 17 turns.
We must try to build another galley. Then if there's actually a passage to somewhere it's done, otherwise we can just disband it.

I've just ran another test using 3 cats and 1 even survived and all the other units too, against 2 archers and 1 axe. HA first barely survived, WE good, chariot not a scratch.
So maybe if we can have 2 more cats quickly from Augsburg we need only 1 more chariot. The other units are already in the area and the HA can arrive quickly from Aachen. Kumbu has a granary already, so we can whip the 2nd galley there.

Excess units will move to Aschen or Florence to be ferried. The worker just arrived SW of Florence's banana must build a road as first task.

 

[Folket]

You did not even try war elephants and swordmen.

Chariots are not the way to go since they have horrid odds against the archer which has first strike making it worse. But Shaandore has a point. We have units and they shgould be used instead of waiting for new builds.

 

[BLubmuz]

You did not even try war elephants and swordmen.

Chariots are not the way to go since they have horrid odds against the archer which has first strike making it worse. But Shaandore has a point. We have units and they shgould be used instead of waiting for new builds.

I did. With 3 C1 WE and 3 CR2 sword.
Lost 1 WE first against the axe, 1 sword 2nd to an archer, then won with 2 swords and a WE.
I think it's my usual "military skill" which some detractor can define luck.
Sure that if we can take the city this way, with 6 units and a couple backup is great.
In any case we need 1 more WE but i don't see why not a cat instead.

BTW where is Pangea?

 

[Folket]

BLubmuz, when having this large defence bonuses C is better then CR. But I guess you used CR2 swordmen because we have plenty of them.

 

[BLubmuz]

BLubmuz, when having this large defence bonuses C is better then CR. But I guess you used CR2 swordmen because we have plenty of them.

I did. But CR2 is far superior attacking a city, exactly for those defence bonuses.

 

[Folket]

comparing C2 and CR2
C2 is better when the defence bonus is greater then 170%. For the axemen the bonus is 175% or 215% against swordmen. for the archer the bonus is 250%.

 

[Pangaea]

BTW where is Pangea?

Still here, sort of. A mate came to town yesterday with his band, so I was there getting pished. Today I'm off to another party with another mate coming to town, for a wedding. Pished again

If it's my turn again, I won't be able to play for a few days. Don't think I've played the game since my last set either, but that is perhaps not a biggie. It's how I usually game. Basically non-stop with a game for a few months, then I get bored with it and move over to something else, then move back again at some later point. Lately I've been more involved with a Kickstarter I backed, and have gotten involved on the testing side of things.

Will give the save a better look later in the weekend, or early next week. Don't think it's the brightest idea to play Saturday after two days on the binge

From discussions, it sounds like my job will be to capture the barb city and figure out what is to the west of it. But too early to start taking on Sury or China now, right?

As for progress, we're about neck-to-neck with one other team, so we are doing very well. Hopefully we are doing well in the actual game too compared with the others, not just in terms of progress.

 

[Shaandore]

Those are actually good news for me, I won't be around until sunday night, but it looks like I can still be back for the discussion of next PPP

EDIT: Post #666

 

[BLubmuz]

Still here, sort of.

If it's my turn again, I won't be able to play for a few days

So you can swap with Folket if he can.

Provided he forget his foolish beliefs about C2 vs CR2 in attacking a city.

OK, Folket, some numbers:
When you attack a city, no matter the defender or the defences, with C2 you have a unit which adds the 20% to its statistics. But with CR2 you have a unit which adds the 45% to its statistics.
On the following example, we'll let aside the city defences and consider a defender axe vs. a sword.
Axe: C1 + 50% vs. melee: 5*1.1*1.5=8.25
sword: C2 + 10 city attack: 6*1.2*1.1=7.92
sword: CR2 + 10 city attack: 6*1.55=9.30
Result (not considering luck): C2 dead, CR2 can survive
WE C1: 8*1.1=8.8, but the axe loses the bonus, so it's 5.5: Good odds for the WE, which can also withdraw.
A catapult has less odds, but can withdraw and in any case causes collateral.

The above are the basics.

 

[unclethrill]

I'm good with a delay until the end of the weekend too.

One thing we need to think about is that there may be another target of opportunity on the other side of the barb city. If possible we should try to have enough units to continue if the barbs have settled another city or two. We need to see what the area to the West is and if we only send enough units to take out one city and there is a second or third one then we will be even more delayed while we funnel more units over there.

Also, looking at the save, if we move the units to be ferried to the farthest west point (top of map NW of the upper west most city; don't have map or game in front right now), it is only a 1 move transport on the boat, so pickup, move 1, next turn drop off and move back and load. This will save time and all the units over there can move from the southern city where they are at (Kumbi IIRC) to the northwest point while other units are being ferried. This will save us turns.

 

[Folket]

BLubmuz, you seeem to have missunderstood how combat strength works. Only +strength is added to the attacker. bonuses that are situational are added to the defender.

sword C2 against axe on hill, in 100% city, fortified and over a river.
6*1.2 = 7.2 vs 5 *(1+0.25+1.00+0.25+0.25+0.50-0.10) = 15.75
1 vs 2.19
sword CR2 against axe on hill, in 100% city, fortified and over a river.
6 = 7.2 vs 5 *(1+0.25+1.00+0.25+0.25+0.50-0.55) = 13.5
1 vs 2.25

 

[Shaandore]

BLubmuz, you seeem to have missunderstood how combat strength works. Only +strength is added to the attacker. bonuses that are situational are added to the defender.

sword C2 against axe on hill, in 100% city, fortified and over a river.
6*1.2 = 7.2 vs 5 *(1+0.25+1.00+0.25+0.25+0.50-0.10) = 15.75
1 vs 2.19
sword CR2 against axe on hill, in 100% city, fortified and over a river.
6 = 7.2 vs 5 *(1+0.25+1.00+0.25+0.25+0.50-0.55) = 13.5
1 vs 2.25

I can confirm this.

"Defender’s modified strength

This one is more complicated. Determine the defender’s bonuses from terrain, general strength bonuses, bonuses vs. the type of the attacking unit, fortification bonuses, etc. Sum those up. Now, subtract any bonuses the attacker might have if it attacks this unit. Those would include attacker bonuses against defender combat type, attacker bonuses against a city, attacker bonuses in the terrain type "

More details here.

 

[Folket]

As for playing I'm also booked the next two days.

 

[BLubmuz]

Since i'm very curious and doubtful, i tested again and get this:

I can think that there's something wrong, but assuming it's correct, why do we give CR promotions whenever possible?

In the remote case that something is wrong in the BUFFY calculations, it can be an explanation why often a CRx attacker wins at bad odds. I do not think that the people who made BAT, BUG and such is not well inside the game mechanics, but maybe a mistake?

I think i'll open this question in some thread. edit iposted the question here

 

[Folket]

What is wrong? We have told how it works and tests show the same thing. Why can't you just accept that if defence is very high combat is better then city raider?

 

[BLubmuz]

What is wrong? We have told how it works and tests show the same thing. Why can't you just accept that if defence is very high combat is better then city raider?

Because it' wrong, period.
The correct formula should be: (defender strenght - attacker strenght/bonuses) * 1+(cultural and buildings defences). I'm sure it's the way it works in game. Other formulae are wrong.

Attacking a city CR MUST be better than C under any circumstance. But to be sure i also raised the question in the BUFFY thread in the HoF.

I'm not the kind of guy which accepts a thing just because others told it years ago. I must try first and find a mistake if that's the case.

 

[Folket]

That is how it is implemented. If you ask moders they can probably give you the code so you may see for yourself.

I thought it was like you said as well but I noticed that sometimes I got weird results. Once I read how it worked it just explained everything. Play around some in the unmoded game and you will see that this is how it works.

 

[Shaandore]

Pangea, are you back? When can we expect a new PPP?

 

[Shaandore]

This pause is really getting long. Could somebody pick it up until Pangea returns?

 

[Folket]

I can write a PPP tomorrow.