SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Our second problem is the GS, just as I suspected. Do we start a golden age? Or wait to see if we will need Edu, and in case we do, save it for Edu bulb? Third option would be to settle him in Vienna.
IMO golden age could be very useful now.

Yes a GAge. Having the Glib we can have a GS on time for Edu if we so decide.

I updated page 1 and removed Mastiff from the roster until he's back from Alaska. So the roster shows 5 players, but lately Pangea is not much active. As i posted above we cannot afford to not have any day well used. We spent the necessary in plans, now it's time to act. Until nest plans phase, which is not nigh.

 

[Shaandore]

I think we will have more than 1 front, so having two medics (one for the west, one for the south) could be useful, maybe better than a settled GG. Or we can settle this, and use the next GG as a second medic.

It would be better if Folket could carry on for a few more days (even better if Pangea returned), because I'm very busy with work until at least Tuesday.

 

[Folket]

I'll go ahead and post a PPP tonight.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think we will have more than 1 front, so having two medics (one for the west, one for the south) could be useful, maybe better than a settled GG. Or we can settle this, and use the next GG as a second medic.

It would be better if Folket could carry on for a few more days (even better if Pangea returned), because I'm very busy with work until at least Tuesday.

OK, so let's build another chariot to attach to the GG. I admit i was undecided but you made change to agree.

OK, Folket can play some more turns. So we can see if Pangea gives a sign. In case not, UT can play?

 

[Folket]

PPP until engineering or drama steal?
Cities:
Aachen, build 1 archer. then whip a settler. Then build missionaries.
Prague, slow build HE, the build and whip macemen.
Vienna, finish archer, finish rauthaus, build units.
Nuremberg, slow build units, mostly catapults.
Augberg, build and whip units,
Mainz, whip an other catapult into the NE or slow build?
Ulm, I like getting a market here and running merchants. or I can just whip units?
Timbuktu, I want to replace all workshops. It has 10 hammers. What we need is commerce. Slow build forge, then units,
Gao, 3 whip forge at size 9.
Goldfoot, slowbuild lighthouse then granary then rauthaus.
Florence, 3 whip forge, then 2 whip settler, then units.
Niani, whip rauthaus. then forge.
Kumbi Saleh, 3 whip forge, then light house.
Walata, whip forge, then library.
Pisa, whip granary then rauthaus.
Hades anvil, whip library when able, then whip monument.
Luxemburg, whip granary then rauthaus.

Units:
leave 2 swordmen behind hades hammer and retreat with the rest. Send units to Khmer, build mostly catapults with a few other units (crossbow, macemen, archer, war elephants)

Others:
Put all EP against Qin.
Sell copper to Qin when he has gpt over.
Save 600 gold before starting to put money into research to get engineering.

 

[Folket]

So if we are using our GS for a golden age I think we should starve out some GP during that time. Perhaps we can starve out 3 or 4 GP.

 

[BLubmuz]

PPP until engineering or drama steal?
Cities:
Aachen, build 1 archer. then whip a settler. Then build missionaries.
Prague, slow build HE, the build and whip macemen.
Vienna, finish archer, finish rauthaus, build units. does it have barracks?
Nuremberg, slow build units, mostly catapults.
Augberg, build and whip units,
Mainz, whip an other catapult into the NE or slow build? only for 1 pop.
Ulm, I like getting a market here and running merchants. or I can just whip units?
Timbuktu, I want to replace all workshops. It has 10 hammers. What we need is commerce. Slow build forge, then units,that workshop was used by Gao. You can build one first, then finish the cottage and give the tile to Timbu
Gao, 3 whip forge at size 9.
Goldfoot, slowbuild lighthouse then granary then rauthaus.
Florence, 3 whip forge, then 2 whip settler, then units. We don't need 2 settlers: you already planned to whip one in Aachen. With the situation we have do not even think to build a city between Niani and Ulm, at least until ther jungle near Niani is completely cleared
Niani, whip rauthaus. then forge.
Kumbi Saleh, 3 whip forge, then light house.
Walata, whip forge, then library.
Pisa, whip granary then rauthaus.
Hades anvil, whip library when able, then whip monument. or start Rathaus and wait for a missionary to whip a temple
Luxemburg, whip granary then rauthaus.

Units:
leave 2 swordmen behind hades hammer and retreat with the rest. Send units to Khmer, build mostly catapults with a few other units (crossbow, macemen, archer, war elephants)
The units we have near Hammer will stay there until we have 4 trebs, 2 maces and a couple more units in position. Heal the axe and use the stack to explore. They are obsoloete to fight the barbs, go figure Sury. But we need them in case of bad odds. I asssume we wanna take it, right?
Others:
Put all EP against Qin.
Sell copper to Qin when he has gpt over.
Save 600 gold before starting to put money into research to get engineering.

OK where not noted.

 

[BLubmuz]

So if we are using our GS for a golden age I think we should starve out some GP during that time. Perhaps we can starve out 3 or 4 GP.

You can even consider to revolt to Caste. IIRC a GAge is 8 turns, so you don't need to revolt in the very first turn. You can time the whips with the GAge launch or with the civic change. Or both.

 

[unclethrill]

yes keep troops near Hammer. We want that city ASAP. Until we reveal the whole map, we don't know if we can stop research at MM or if we need to go all the way to Paras

 

[Shaandore]

I can't really open the game, but I'll post my ideas/observations anyway, mostly based on your PPP and our current situation as I see it:

1. Starting a cat war against Sury is a bit too ambitious if he has Engineering (does he have it?) If you feel like we have ~15 turns before he gets to engineering, then maybe it's worth attacking with just what we have. But we will face a lot of maces, and probably knights too towards the end of the war. Not having counter units in mass might make this a painful war.

2. I would cut down on cats, I would stick to maces and galleys instead so we can move our army around relatively fast. Later I would put all cities on Trebs.

3. The golden age situation is always a tough call. It could help us to get to the next tech sooner. But if we are looking to starve cities, then it slows our war effort considerably. I would stay conservative and try to get 2 or maximum 3 GP during the GA (only if we have a candidate for 3rd starver). This way the rest of the cities can concentrate on units (or wealth, I really think that getting Engineering 1 or 2 turns earlier will be a big benefit) The Caste revolt for 5 turns could be nice, but I'm not sure we need it, we are talking about the 3rd and 4th GP after all, so they should come relatively easily.

4. Although I can't check the save, I hope we have enough workers, and fewer and fewer jungles, and more and more farms to support our war fronts. Since nobody can get away with hard whipping for 50+ turns, we need to give some breathing room to our cities sooner or later, so building some wealth now with almost no whips to grow our cities out of unhappiness and accumulate some extra pop to whip into trebs/landshklakujhsgisghgts (<- our UU ) seems like a good idea. It also helps our Engineering date.

 

[BLubmuz]

I can't really open the game, but I'll post my ideas/observations anyway, mostly based on your PPP and our current situation as I see it:

1. Starting a cat war against Sury is a bit too ambitious if he has Engineering (does he have it?) If you feel like we have ~15 turns before he gets to engineering, then maybe it's worth attacking with just what we have. But we will face a lot of maces, and probably knights too towards the end of the war. Not having counter units in mass might make this a painful war.

2. I would cut down on cats, I would stick to maces and galleys instead so we can move our army around relatively fast. Later I would put all cities on Trebs.

3. The golden age situation is always a tough call. It could help us to get to the next tech sooner. But if we are looking to starve cities, then it slows our war effort considerably. I would stay conservative and try to get 2 or maximum 3 GP during the GA (only if we have a candidate for 3rd starver). This way the rest of the cities can concentrate on units (or wealth, I really think that getting Engineering 1 or 2 turns earlier will be a big benefit) The Caste revolt for 5 turns could be nice, but I'm not sure we need it, we are talking about the 3rd and 4th GP after all, so they should come relatively easily.

4. Although I can't check the save, I hope we have enough workers, and fewer and fewer jungles, and more and more farms to support our war fronts. Since nobody can get away with hard whipping for 50+ turns, we need to give some breathing room to our cities sooner or later, so building some wealth now with almost no whips to grow our cities out of unhappiness and accumulate some extra pop to whip into trebs/landshklakujhsgisghgts (<- our UU ) seems like a good idea. It also helps our Engineering date.

I use your points, so you can in case quote me.
1. We can see pikes near Goldfoot, so he has. We need maces not only for that. Or our UU. No mounted, nor Sury nor Qin have horses or ivory. It's good for our siege, we do not have to be worried by flank attacks.
2. Agreed. Maces and a couple HA for possible field fights or against siege. No more siege until trebs. And no more WEs. They will be useful, but Maces are better and our UU too.
3. Sure we need to be careful. With the Glib we can maybe avoid Caste, but a GM for a trade mission can be useful. We can send him to Toku's Capital, so we can map his land. GMs can enter rival territory without OB. The problem is that many of our cities are polluted, but any Gperson is welcome.
4. I agree. Growing our cities will give more trade income, more commerce and more people to whip later. The whips during a GAge must be limited to essential structures in new cities.

I'd add that we need 1-2 more galleys and a trireme. I've seen a Khmer galley around, better keep them at bay.

 

[Folket]

Qin has horses.

Vienna has barracks.

I can build a workshop for Gao.

I was going for the pigs in the top right corner with the second settler.

I do not see that a temple is that useful in Hades Anvil but I can whip a monastery.

If we wait 4 turns for the NE I can grow Florence to size 10. It can then get a great merchant in 6 turns in caste system. I can get Augberg get a GP 3 turns later or Mainz 2 turns later. Given 7 turns in caste and 8 turns of GA.

If I starve Aachen for a great merchant. I will get a GM after 6 turns and a GP from Augsberg 1 turns later. And Mainz 1 turn after that. This looks pretty good.

 

[Folket]

I forgot to count pacifism when I did the calculations. Since we can get 3 GPs without pacifism perhaps we should avoid pacifism? Or we can get 4 or 5 GPs with some micro.

 

[Shaandore]

The 3GP plan is solid. I would avoid switching into Pacifism, it would be too expensive with all the units. Thanks for working it out! For our purposes, Merchants are the best, engineers are still welcome (for Engi bulb), spies are nice, and the rest is okay, but try to keep scientist chance minimal, since we will have enough of them anyway. (We need mixed GPs for next golden ages)

 

[Folket]

Yes, I was planing on having 1 100% GM and then the others will be 1enginner and many merchants in cities with scientist pollution.

 

[Folket]

Unless you want to delay engineering we will have it before our great people spawns.

 

[Shaandore]

I wouldn't hire any specialists in cities other than Augs, Mainz and Florence, unless they have nothing better to do (eg. they are out of 2 food tiles, so can't really grow any more). The reason is that they most likely won't be able to get a GP in this game, but growing them will be useful for starting this war.

Don't delay engineering, we need it ASAP.

 

[Folket]

PPP until end of GA?
Cities:
Aachen, build 1 archer. then build wealth and grow to size 10. Starve for a GM.
Prague, slow build HE, the build and whip macemen.
Vienna, finish archer, finish rauthaus, build wealth.
Nuremberg, slow build macemen.
Augberg, build welath and grow, starve for a second GP of some kind.
Mainz, slow build NE. starve for a third GP of some kind.
Ulm, I like getting a market here and running merchants. or I can just whip units? No comments?
Timbuktu, I want to replace all workshops. It has 10 hammers. What we need is commerce. Slow build forge, then wealth,
Gao, 3 whip forge at size 9.
Goldfoot, slowbuild lighthouse then granary then rauthaus.
Florence, 3 whip forge, then 2 whip settler, then units.
Niani, whip rauthaus. then forge.
Kumbi Saleh, 3 whip forge, then light house.
Walata, whip forge, then library.
Pisa, whip granary then rauthaus.
Hades anvil, whip library when able, then whip monument.
Luxemburg, whip granary then rauthaus.

Units:
explore with 2 swordmen behind hades hammer and siege hades with the rest. Send units to Hades hammer, build mostly macemen with a few other units (crossbow, macemen, archer), after engineering only build landsknecht and trebs.

Others:
Put all EP against Qin.
Sell copper to Qin when he has gpt over.
steal drama from khmer
Save 600 gold before starting to put money into research to get engineering.
start a golden age in 4 turns (when NE is completed and Aachen is at size 10). revolt to caste system for 7 turns. starve GM form aachen, then GP from augberg and then GP from Mainz.

 

[BLubmuz]

Qin has horses. s**t

I can build a workshop for Gao. Before you bulldoze the only one it has

I was going for the pigs in the top right corner with the second settler. IIRC there's plenty of forests there, so a granary+rathaus do not need too much. I'd like to have missionaries for the new cities to benefit of the OR bonus

I do not see that a temple is that useful in Hades Anvil but I can whip a monastery. I prefer monasteries, but temples give happiness. See for the better

If we wait 4 turns for the NE I can grow Florence to size 10. It can then get a great merchant in 6 turns in caste system. I can get Augberg get a GP 3 turns later or Mainz 2 turns later. Given 7 turns in caste and 8 turns of GA.

This is not clear: you speak to grow florence here and to whip 3 pop for a forge in your PPP. Wrong city name or what?

PPP until end of GA?
Cities:
Ulm, I like getting a market here and running merchants. or I can just whip units? No comments? when we go back to slavery you can run 2. In any case they will help. After Guilds we can build a grocer and run 4.
Timbuktu, I want to replace all workshops. It has 10 hammers. What we need is commerce. Slow build forge, then wealth, it's 1 and used by Gao. Once Gao has one, cottage. But we can build some units too.
Florence, 3 whip forge, then 2 whip settler, then units. this is in contrast (see above)
Niani, whip rauthaus. then forge.
Kumbi Saleh, 3 whip forge, then light house.
Walata, whip forge, then library.
Pisa, whip granary then rauthaus.
Hades anvil, whip library when able, then whip monument. monastery or temple (see above) did i told you i hate monuments?

Units:
explore with 2 swordmen behind hades hammer and siege hades with the rest. Send units to Hades hammer, build mostly macemen with a few other units (crossbow, macemen, archer), after engineering only build landsknecht and trebs.
no no no!
do not move units near Hammer until we're ready to take it or they will continue to build units. I suspect that those walls are a dun, see how the units are promoted.
We need trebs to take it, Xbows are good in defence or in the field, not to take a city
Others:
Put all EP against Qin.
Sell copper to Qin when he has gpt over.
steal drama from khmer
Save 600 gold before starting to put money into research to get engineering.
start a golden age in 4 turns (when NE is completed and Aachen is at size 10). revolt to caste system for 7 turns. starve GM form aachen, then GP from augberg and then GP from Mainz.

OK for the GAge and research plan.
When can you play?

Shaan Pangea did not posted anything. Can you play after Folket?
UT when can you play?

we need to schedule our TSs, we can't waste days in waiting. 49 to go.

 

[Folket]

This is not clear: you speak to grow florence here and to whip 3 pop for a forge in your PPP. Wrong city name or what?
It was my first calculation before I concluded that starving aachen was better.

OK for the GAge and research plan.
When can you play?
I can play tonight.

Shaan Pangea did not posted anything. Can you play after Folket?
UT when can you play?

we need to schedule our TSs, we can't waste days in waiting. 49 to go.

Gao does not want to work a workshop right now so I will build cottage first.

The plan only contain one settler right now and it will go to elephants, but if I build a second I will go to the top right. I'm ok with building some missionaries.

Monastery in hades it is.

As for Gao, I think we are better off working coast and whiping units.