SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
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Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
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So... Qin have rebuilt both horses and iron, we are facing cuirs again. I'm not sure we can comfortably take Beijing next turn (mening we might be able to, but there will be heavy losses.)
Good news is we have a Great Merchant, waiting to fire the GA. I chickened out of SciMeth to not screw this GP with Parthenon (do wonders obsolete before GPP counting or after?), but we will have it this turn, with >1000 beakers OF into Communism.
We have 54 workshops and they are getting around very nicely. Some cities will be crazy strong, i.e. Prague
We are getting better near Peter too, quite a few troops are there waiting to get shipped. We might want to build some more Gallies here.
There is a 2.9% revolt chance in Guangzhou, we should put a few guys from the neighbouring stack back here.
Even if we won't be able to change civics immediately, we will need to stay on 100% until we get Communism now becuase Qin has SciMeth for Quite a few turns now, so our GSpy might be in danger.
Save uploaded.
Good news is we have a Great Merchant, waiting to fire the GA. I chickened out of SciMeth to not screw this GP with Parthenon (do wonders obsolete before GPP counting or after?), but we will have it this turn, with >1000 beakers OF into Communism.
We have 54 workshops and they are getting around very nicely. Some cities will be crazy strong, i.e. Prague
We are getting better near Peter too, quite a few troops are there waiting to get shipped. We might want to build some more Gallies here.
There is a 2.9% revolt chance in Guangzhou, we should put a few guys from the neighbouring stack back here.
Even if we won't be able to change civics immediately, we will need to stay on 100% until we get Communism now becuase Qin has SciMeth for Quite a few turns now, so our GSpy might be in danger.
Save uploaded.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Got it!
Well done Shaan, that GM is what we need. Now i think we must launch immediately the GAge. The GSpy is really at risk. It's not a must, but it'd be disappointing to lose it.
Civics change: Repr, Caste (after whip the CH in Nagara), Pacifism. Keep Merc and Bureau.
Beijing is damn well defended and there're so many units there that it's impossible to take it in 1 turn. The idea is: bombard with all the trebs, attack with the cannons and kill the most possible units. Next turn we can have also some knight and we can finish the job, unless we're very unlucky.
I don't see problems for Guang, it's still in revolt and once the culture of Beijing will go away the chances will drop to 0.
About the GP plan, Mainz shows 3 turns and Ulm 25. Thus, before the GAge ends we can have 2 GP from those. Florence can hire 8 specs without actually starving and 10 after we revolt to Repr, because the 2 angry citizens will disappear, being in the top 5 cities. So we can have 4 GP during the GAge or at least 3 and a 4th one soon after.
I think that we can go for a GA or GS in Mainz, being it polluted by buildings, a GM in Ulm, which is pure and any other different one from Florence, which is slightly polluted. We can also keep an eng hired there to try for a GE.
In Ulm i think i can fire some spec to let it replenish the granary, so i can hire more later without lose pop.
Research: we do not have many choices: Astro or RP. RP opens Rifling later, Astro opens Physics which gives a free GS and blimps, which can be used quickly on the front, so i'm for that. We can also build some observ. in few selected cities and benefit that 2 AIs already have it.
Detailed plan tomorrow, once i see your answers.
Well done Shaan, that GM is what we need. Now i think we must launch immediately the GAge. The GSpy is really at risk. It's not a must, but it'd be disappointing to lose it.
Civics change: Repr, Caste (after whip the CH in Nagara), Pacifism. Keep Merc and Bureau.
Beijing is damn well defended and there're so many units there that it's impossible to take it in 1 turn. The idea is: bombard with all the trebs, attack with the cannons and kill the most possible units. Next turn we can have also some knight and we can finish the job, unless we're very unlucky.
I don't see problems for Guang, it's still in revolt and once the culture of Beijing will go away the chances will drop to 0.
About the GP plan, Mainz shows 3 turns and Ulm 25. Thus, before the GAge ends we can have 2 GP from those. Florence can hire 8 specs without actually starving and 10 after we revolt to Repr, because the 2 angry citizens will disappear, being in the top 5 cities. So we can have 4 GP during the GAge or at least 3 and a 4th one soon after.
I think that we can go for a GA or GS in Mainz, being it polluted by buildings, a GM in Ulm, which is pure and any other different one from Florence, which is slightly polluted. We can also keep an eng hired there to try for a GE.
In Ulm i think i can fire some spec to let it replenish the granary, so i can hire more later without lose pop.
Research: we do not have many choices: Astro or RP. RP opens Rifling later, Astro opens Physics which gives a free GS and blimps, which can be used quickly on the front, so i'm for that. We can also build some observ. in few selected cities and benefit that 2 AIs already have it.
Detailed plan tomorrow, once i see your answers.
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
Hey guys,
Back from vacation! See all is going well!
MoA
Back from vacation! See all is going well!
MoA
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
- Messages
- 868
GP plan looks good. Research wise check if Peter has horses. Having a few Rifles is really nice when going against cuirs (I guess we can all feel the pressure at Beijing now). Otherwise Astro->Physics is my preferred path.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I need to check.
The overall Empire has precedence over a single city. Good decision.
It can in fact be a bit too risky to attack now. The cannons in the 2nd stack will arrive too late, but wait 1 turn to attack is better.
Need to see the save. The last time i checked they were evened, but it was some 10-20 turns ago. In case we can change 2 more times.
In any case, with Sistine we can increase too much our borders. I need to see which border cities are running specs.
I'm a bit busy until tomorrow noon, so we can use this time to discuss some details.
If i can i'll post a PPP tonight.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
New cities can pay for themselves if they are big enough and be captured with some structure. One of the reasons of SP is that, if not the main.
I will activate the Dom land alert, so we can just count the remaining tiles, but i think that we can do better if we keep the 3 Russian riverside cities.
About Japan, probably 3-4 cities at most, just to grant the passage.
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
- Messages
- 868
IMO what Folket means is that we don't have too many turns left. With a double golden age starting (24 turns of GA!!!) we will be over the few remaining techs pretty quickly.
So if a city comes without a CH, and not incredibly huge hammer production, and not enough commerce to pay for its maintenance, then raze it. Without slavery and hammers building the CH takes a lot of time, and meanwhile all the city does is eat our money.
From Japan we will need at most 2-3 cities to have a place for our fighters/paratroopers. The rest can be razed. We might want to build some forts too inside their culture to reach some cities of Churchill that are far away.
BTW we should consider getting Flight before Assembly line. It would speed up our warring if we could airlift units near the front lines. And fighters are just great everywhere. We won't have time to set up factories anyway, they won't have time to pay for themselves, except in a few strong cities. (Or to put it another way, our main problem is logistics, not production) Our units need 10+ turns to get to the front lines now. Both routes include water. Maybe these will get down to ~6-7 turns with railroads and transports, but that is still too much to be effective.
As things are standing now, we will have paratroopers before we finish off Japan.
So if a city comes without a CH, and not incredibly huge hammer production, and not enough commerce to pay for its maintenance, then raze it. Without slavery and hammers building the CH takes a lot of time, and meanwhile all the city does is eat our money.
From Japan we will need at most 2-3 cities to have a place for our fighters/paratroopers. The rest can be razed. We might want to build some forts too inside their culture to reach some cities of Churchill that are far away.
BTW we should consider getting Flight before Assembly line. It would speed up our warring if we could airlift units near the front lines. And fighters are just great everywhere. We won't have time to set up factories anyway, they won't have time to pay for themselves, except in a few strong cities. (Or to put it another way, our main problem is logistics, not production) Our units need 10+ turns to get to the front lines now. Both routes include water. Maybe these will get down to ~6-7 turns with railroads and transports, but that is still too much to be effective.
As things are standing now, we will have paratroopers before we finish off Japan.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
And RR will be.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
PPP part. 1
Before to prepare a PPP i need some guidelines.
The way i see it is that any city must have Library and Grocer or Market. Harbors for the coastal cities.
We need also many units for Russia (which, BTW has no horses).
Now we have almost ready for loading:
GG chariot, 5 cannons, 3 swords, 2 muskets, 1 LB+2 in Anvil, 1Kn+2 pillaging.
2 cannons and 1 musket near Gao.
I think that 5 more canons are enough, but we need muskets, maces and Kn, at least 3 for any kind and a couple Xbows and LK. We must keep also some unit in Hammer/Lubeck, to avoid surprises by barbs.
As long as we're sailing units there're always some there, but we must think to when we're done with the shipping.
For the South, the first stack has 7 cannons, 5 trebs, 4 Kn, 7 maces, 1 LK, 3 old units and the GG.
the 2nd has 7 cannons, 5 Kn, 1 musket/Xbow/LK and the weak GG.
I don't expect to find the impressive stack defending Beijing elsewhere, but we must take many cities, keep many and think to Japan. I think we're OK for siege, but we need defenders and attackers. Not much, but some.
Research: the path to RR
Civics: in F9 we can see that we have 31 towns. I counted 13 (some almost) worked by Vienna. Now it has 91 cpt*1.5(bureau)*3(Aca+Lib+Uni+OU)=407.5 (overall research is higher because of trade routes). Considering those 13 towns 91 becomes 117*3= 351. Bureau gives 56.5 more than FP for the Capital.
The remaining 18 towns can give 45 considering a library on average or 54 considering a Uni (unlikely). Even with 54 we're even. We save 26 gpt of civics upkeep, so it can be better. But if/when Vienna produces whealth this can be almost evened again.
I think i prefer to stay in bureau, mainly after a levee.
About Repr, Caste and pacifism we're already agreed. I'll report when i can revolt again to decide when use SP and see if Pacifism is too expensive.
In part 2, tomorrow i'll set a plan for any city if you want or i'll just follow the guidelines we decide.
Before to prepare a PPP i need some guidelines.
The way i see it is that any city must have Library and Grocer or Market. Harbors for the coastal cities.
We need also many units for Russia (which, BTW has no horses).
Now we have almost ready for loading:
GG chariot, 5 cannons, 3 swords, 2 muskets, 1 LB+2 in Anvil, 1Kn+2 pillaging.
2 cannons and 1 musket near Gao.
I think that 5 more canons are enough, but we need muskets, maces and Kn, at least 3 for any kind and a couple Xbows and LK. We must keep also some unit in Hammer/Lubeck, to avoid surprises by barbs.
As long as we're sailing units there're always some there, but we must think to when we're done with the shipping.
For the South, the first stack has 7 cannons, 5 trebs, 4 Kn, 7 maces, 1 LK, 3 old units and the GG.
the 2nd has 7 cannons, 5 Kn, 1 musket/Xbow/LK and the weak GG.
I don't expect to find the impressive stack defending Beijing elsewhere, but we must take many cities, keep many and think to Japan. I think we're OK for siege, but we need defenders and attackers. Not much, but some.
Research: the path to RR
Civics: in F9 we can see that we have 31 towns. I counted 13 (some almost) worked by Vienna. Now it has 91 cpt*1.5(bureau)*3(Aca+Lib+Uni+OU)=407.5 (overall research is higher because of trade routes). Considering those 13 towns 91 becomes 117*3= 351. Bureau gives 56.5 more than FP for the Capital.
The remaining 18 towns can give 45 considering a library on average or 54 considering a Uni (unlikely). Even with 54 we're even. We save 26 gpt of civics upkeep, so it can be better. But if/when Vienna produces whealth this can be almost evened again.
I think i prefer to stay in bureau, mainly after a levee.
About Repr, Caste and pacifism we're already agreed. I'll report when i can revolt again to decide when use SP and see if Pacifism is too expensive.
In part 2, tomorrow i'll set a plan for any city if you want or i'll just follow the guidelines we decide.
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
- Messages
- 868
answers in red
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I mean our core cities. About new cities, you're right about China and Khmer, with some structure for the most commerce rich. But remember that if we run slavery and lack the 2nd level structures (library and market/grocer), we can't run specs, so we do not take advantage from them.
Sure, it's far more we need to take Koishan. But it's not enough to take 6 Russian cities and keep 3 (the north riverside ones).
please don't raise problems now on that: when i'll report (5 turns from now) we can have a much better picture of what we can safely keep and what not.
For now, i think we agree on the need to take Shangai and raze it.
About the 3 AIs on south, i told that we have enough siege, but we're short on units. We need at least as many as we have now to move quickly.
Now i can post my PPP, part 2
Note: the whips are intended this turn, then we have 12 of Caste
note2: i'd like to use the GAge to build some structures. I think we can have the units we need before the GAge ends. Later we can build some MG or some good GP unit (rifles or infantry), but not much. Note that a city without airport can receive only 1 unit/turn, so we must count mainly on paras for Chur.
cities:
Mainz: whealth, run specs for GP generation
Ulm: whealth, run specs for GP generation
Florence: harbor while run specs for GP generation
Augs: whip cannon, units
bridge: lib, harbor
GF: lib
djen: cannon, units, lib, gro later
Timbu: units
niani: units, lib, gro later
kumbi: cannon, harbor
walata: cannon, units or structures
Pisa: barracks first, finish cannon, units, see if structures are worth
HA: finish galley and uni, market or gro
lux: har, lib maybe or whealth
strass: go with Kn
HH: whip cannon, finish market, see what it needs
angkor: finish barr, slow units
yaso: finish market, library, barr, units
nagara: whip rat, then see
Aachen: harbor units. maybe a unit first
prague: units
vienna: units
The targets for units are:
- 12 cannons for russia and at least twice def/att units
- no more siege for south, but roughly as many def/att we have now, not counting the really obsolete ones, which can be used later for MP in safe cities.
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
- Messages
- 868
I'd like to object about building those structures. We shouldn't run any more slavery with communism at all. We should stay in Caste all the way to the end. We will have enoguh spec slots. Besides we are getting workshops instead of farms, so whips lose their strength anyway. Working 2F4h tiles is much better (or 2F5H during GA).
Our non-commerce and non-gp-farm cities should get all workshops. our commerce won't really rise, our production will. So Forges>>libraries. Markets for happiness, library maybe in those cities that we conquer and have 20+commerce. Our core cities have all the infra they need, except:
- observatories in Vienna and Timbu
- probably some factories later
- markets mainly for happiness if needed
- harbior/grocer only if we are running out of health
- some misc buldings I might have forgot
Everything else is a waste of hammers, and is better spent on units or wealth. Don't bother with libraries under 20 commerce, there won't be enough time for it to be useful.
Our non-commerce and non-gp-farm cities should get all workshops. our commerce won't really rise, our production will. So Forges>>libraries. Markets for happiness, library maybe in those cities that we conquer and have 20+commerce. Our core cities have all the infra they need, except:
- observatories in Vienna and Timbu
- probably some factories later
- markets mainly for happiness if needed
- harbior/grocer only if we are running out of health
- some misc buldings I might have forgot
Everything else is a waste of hammers, and is better spent on units or wealth. Don't bother with libraries under 20 commerce, there won't be enough time for it to be useful.
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