SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · May 21, 2013

Folket said:
I would like you to tell us what GPs you are aiming to get and what the plan for them are.

BLubmuz said:
About the GP plan, Mainz shows 3 turns and Ulm 25. Thus, before the GAge ends we can have 2 3 GP from those. Florence can hire 8 specs without actually starving and 10 after we revolt to Repr, because the 2 angry citizens will disappear, being in the top 5 cities. So we can have 4 GP during the GAge or at least 3 and a 4th one soon after.

I think that we can go for a GA or GS in Mainz, being it polluted by buildings, a GM in Ulm, which is pure and any other different one from Florence, which is slightly polluted. We can also keep an eng hired there to try for a GE.

In Ulm i think i can fire some spec to let it replenish the granary, so i can hire more later without lose pop.

I think the above plan was enough, but to be clear: (trying to put them in the order they can pop)
Mainz: we can have anything now.
Mainz: again, it has the NE. Only after i see what we have i can decide. GA or GS seem the most fitting, because we have +2GS and +1GA from buildings. Then it can be set up for another one, too soon to decide now. We need to see what happens.
Ulm: clean gene, GM
Florence: polluted, i can try for a GS polluting it with an engineer

We must also consider that, if we win the Commu race, we have a GSpy, so a GM and a GA can be what we need for next GAge and another GS to bulb Physics, to have another one to settle or to build an academy.

No more cities can generate a GP for this GAge.

Folket said:
When not having slavery harbour will pay for themselves very fast with 3 health and 50% on trade routes.
Sure and we're already with many cities close to the health cap
Can we cap Qin instead of making peace with him? We should be able to demand economics from him if he capitulates.

Game option: No Vassals

Shaandore said:
I'd like to object about building those structures.

Everything else is a waste of hammers, and is better spent on units or wealth. Don't bother with libraries under 20 commerce, there won't be enough time for it to be useful.

If we agree to keep Caste until the game ends, the usefulness of those structures is diminished. Grocers for health in non-coastal cities and the low limit of 20 cpt can be a good cut off for decisions. But you must remember that running representation, also the beakers from specs has to be taken in account

In any case, units will have precedence if they can be produced in a reasonable time. If a city needs 10 turns for a knight, better build whealth or structures.

BTW, i noticed you're workshopping even the riverside tiles. If i can, i prefer watermills, mainly for Florence and Niani.

If we're agreed i can play tonight and hopefully report the 5 turns.

Folket · May 21, 2013

You caution when building buildings. Wealth or research is often better. But pile up the units.

Shaandore · May 21, 2013

Watermills gain their usefulness with electricity, a tech we won't research. A grassland watermill pre-electricity will give us 2F2H2C, while a caste+SP workshop gives us 2F4H1C. Much better. (the 2 extra hammers more than pay for the 1C loss)

EDIT: forgot that SP adds 1 food to watermills as well. then they are mostly even. So in cities with enough food, build Workshop (eg. Florence) otherwise build Watermills.

Folket · May 21, 2013

I prefer watermills. But either is fine.

Folket · May 21, 2013

As long as we build many of them. Massproduction is a virtue.

As you can see from my posts.

BLubmuz · May 21, 2013

Shaandore said:
EDIT: forgot that SP adds 1 food to watermills as well. then they are mostly even. So in cities with enough food, build Workshop (eg. Florence) otherwise build Watermills.

i supposed you forgot

Florence needs watermills to run more specs, but we can't build more than 2 IIRC.

OK, all clear and decided. Gonna play soon.

Shaandore · May 21, 2013

Not that it matters, but we have a very high chance that this will be the last GP from Florence given our time limits. So workshops should have roughly the same value as watermills there.

BLubmuz · May 21, 2013

Alright, 5 turns played. We can change civics again from this turn.

Beijing was a hard nut to crack. Luckily i followed you advice and waited for the second stack, bombarding with the healthy units. When the 2nd stack arrived i bombarded again and used some cannons with alternate luck. Then an attack of all the stack wasn't enough to kill all the units, even if i lost only a mace at incredible odds (99.40). Qin moved some 4-5 units next turn, but he actually suicided them.

He stolen Steel, so i has to face some cannon. Now he's without iron (pillaged with a chariot, still alive), so no cannons and no Cuirs. I managed to kill a cannon with a knight just outside Bei, let's hope it was his last one.

In the meantime Sury planted a city in the same site of Angkor Wat, so i have just finished a road along the border. To note that Beijing has no roads in free land, so i have a worker (well protected) on the hill now.

Khoisan is ours, at the price of a cannon >81% :mad:

Autolog, then i'll post again.

Spoiler :

BLubmuz · May 21, 2013

Report part 2

We was first to Commu, so now we have the GSpy. Mainz generated a GM. so now i'm goin' for a GS there and a GM in Ulm. I'm trying a GA polluted with an eng in Florence, but we still have 2 angry citizens. I chopped a temple.
I've starved Mainz so Florence could have gained #5 and benefit of Repr, but it worked until i took Bei.

I just finished the pillaging party down south. I won't pillage the railroad, because it connectes us to Toku, to whom i'm trading fish for 9 gpt. I'm also trading cows to peter for 7 gpt.

I forgot to lower the dom limit alert (just done), but we're @28.40, so i think we won't have any problem.

We have oil just outside Ulm's BFC and in Goldfoot BFC, now stolen by the new Khmer city.

Beijing relented drastically my war plans. I can have useful units only next turn to attack Shangai. I need 3 turns to arrive, then i'll see what i find. Raze it!

Research:
I'm goin' for SP (2 turns) but after it i must use some turn at 0%, we're about 50% break even. Peter has SM, but not astro, so if we want the GS from Physics we must probably switch. Actually i don't see much use for a GS after Phy, se we can even skip it.

Next turn a can upgrade the 2 remaining trebs for 110g each. I think it's worth.

Russia:
i got 2 cannons in Khoisan, 7 scatterd between Anvil and Lubeck and 5 near Gao. I think they are enough. I keep building some to replace some we'll lose for the south.

In Lubeck area i have: 3 Kn, 2lk, 2 Mu. 2 lb, 2sw. I'm also shipping 4 workers to road and to improve the land, they've finished their jobs for Lubeck. More units are arriving to Gao to be shipped. The best way to use the galleys is to unload them to Hammer, then let the units walk (they move faster then galleys) to be loaded again on the coast and finally unloaded in Khoisan.

I think we can even start again with Sury, to solve a problem: we have enough units to wipe him. We can trade Commu to Peter for Econ+160g+WM and Music to Chur for Theo+WM: after that we can't have much from Qin. Better move faster.

Civics:
revolting to SP is not mandatory: none of our cities is starving, Bei was taken with all the espionage buildings, forge, market, grocer and academy. GG, GE, GS and GPro settled. 11 turns of revolt :eek:

Pacifism is costing us a lot in terms of units. I propose to revolt to SP and Theocracy at the end of the Gage or after Mainz and ulm have popped their Gperson. Running Merc is of help on this side.

I think i can convert Ulm to a GS to use for Phy. It's polluted now, but we can hope. We need to prioritize Ulm, or it can give the GP before the end og the GAge. Mainz has the NE, so i can delay it by 1 turn after Ulm and have the GS anyway.

Florence can't have it because the 2 angry citizens, but can accumulate GPPs.

It seems we have to decide only about civics change and war. If we agree i can play again tomorrow night.

Folket · May 22, 2013

Let Vienna grow by working the pigs. It has excess health. Timbuktu should take a town from Gao.

What are we going to use Theo for? Trade for economics with Peter.

We want to change to state property now.

I have calculated a little on GPs. We can get 5 GPs without problems and could possible squeeze in a sixth one as well. But it seems setup for only 4 GPs. Suggest we starve out a GP from Walata.

So spawn GS in Mainz (4 turns), GA? in Florence(10 turns), GA/GM/GS in Walata (13 turns), GM in Ulm(16 turns), GS/GM/GA in Mainz(19 turns)

Why have we setup for a GA in Florence? Employ scientists. We can use a GS here to bulb physics. If we get an engineer we can use him to bulb fascism.

So now we know when we get great people we should plan our research around that. It seems to me w2e can count on bulbing fascism. How late can we delay physics, can we wait 13 turns for a GS from Walata? If we have a lucky spawn GE should we bulb AL or try for an other golden age?

Shaandore · May 22, 2013

We need to switch to SP now. It has better output than Merc as it can be seen in both our calculations. Why would we wnat to delay the extra ~100 gpt? We also get some trades from Peter before we declare on him if we switch now.

BTW if none of our cities is starving, then you should build much more workshops

I'll check the war situation tonight, and also other cities about micro. We shouldn't have any more problems with warring with Qin's iron gone. Good job on tkaing Beijing with minimal losses! :goodjob:

@Folket: Fascism itself has almost no use for us. Flight is needed for paratroopers.

If we can safely get 3 different GPs besides the GSpy, then we shouldn't do a peace deal, and do as Folket suggested: steal Econ. Use the other 3 GPs for the third GA. Further Great people won't have any real use for us. We don't need more specs, nor extra food, just a bazillion hammers to finish this game.

Folket · May 22, 2013

Yes, but how are you planing to bulb flight?

It is all about saving turns. Fascism is easy for us to bulb since we do not need to get it fast so we can wait for GMs.

Shaandore · May 22, 2013

Okay, if we can get more GP that we can use for bulbs then they are useful. I wasn't planning to bulb flight.

EDIT: what I meant before is that Flight is the priority in research. But you are right that a bulb is always nice.

BLubmuz · May 22, 2013

Folket, your calculations for GP are probably wrong, since we have 7 turns of GAge and after that we can't use pacifism and we lose the 100% from the GA.
This is why i propose to wait at least until Ulm pops its GP before switch.
I remember that all the comparisons for Commu were made considering to switch at the end of the GAge and i'd like to wait until Ulm pops its GP, which should be 1 turn earlier only if we keep Merc.

And we need Fascism, as last tech after flight or in whatever order we want.

About religion civics, we surely won't need OR. So the choice is between FR and Theo, to have 5XP units. Music is of no value, in fact Chur is offering a less valuable tech adding no gold. Once we have it we can decide.

We have now 32 turns at 100% until the end of the research, so we can assume 70 turns from now, i think no less than 55.

About war, i think that in 3-4 turns i can be ready for Sury. Need to build some more cannon.
Toku shows the fist, but he can't move through China to attack us. We only need to let Hangzhou last and arrive there with all our forces.

Folket · May 22, 2013

Has Tokugawa closed his border with China?

We are planing on launching 12 more turns of golden age when the GS pops are we not? I think we can keep pacifism until the two golden ages are over. Then change to free religion.

BLubmuz · May 22, 2013

Folket said:
Has Tokugawa closed his border with China?

We are planing on launching 12 more turns of golden age when the GS pops are we not? I think we can keep pacifism until the two golden ages are over. Then change to free religion.

Toku has no OB with anyone. Peter has no contact with anyone but us.

Do you mean 2 consecutives GAges? It's the only way to run pacifism and don't be ruined. It costs us >100 gpt. But i don't see great use of it after this GAge. We can't have a 4 GP GAge i think and i doubt it would be useful.

Then, why FR and not Theo to gain 2 XP for our new units?

Folket · May 22, 2013

Because everyone has been saying that research is the limiting factor right now. FR will get us to paratroopers faster.

We only need 3 GPs for our next Golden age. I assumed that is why we stationed our great spy in Vienna.

What is your plan Blubmuz? I'm just confused.

BLubmuz · May 22, 2013

Folket said:
Because everyone has been saying that research is the limiting factor right now. FR will get us to paratroopers faster.
It's 10% of base commerce and specs beakers. It's not much but it helps
We only need 3 GPs for our next Golden age. I assumed that is why we stationed our great spy in Vienna.

What is your plan Blubmuz? I'm just confused.

I d' like to try for GS in Ulm, i think i can still recover the polluted gene. But i need to stay in Merc until i can have that GP, probably in 7 turns. THe one from Mainz - an almost sure GS - can arrive 1-2 turns later, after the GAge.
A GS because we already have a GM and another GS will shave almost 2 turns of full research to Phys. Done this, we'll take any GP we have and use it to bulb or just settle.

BTW i have had a GG 1 turn ago and settled it in Vienna: good output for research and Vienna is producing units.

Folket · May 22, 2013

Would it not be better to get one from mainz first to start an other golden age? And then start to farm GPs for bulbing.

Why are we running great artists in Florence?

BLubmuz · May 22, 2013

Folket said:
Would it not be better to get one from mainz first to start an other golden age? And then start to farm GPs for bulbing.

Why are we running great artists in Florence?

Because a GA can launch a GAge. Anyway that city was polluted.

I can revise my plan in this way:
- renounce to the GP from Ulm before Mainz.
- push to have a GS from Mainz to launch an immadiate GAge, at most with 1-2 turns of interval
- push to have another GS from Mainz to bulb Phy or Astro
- convert Ulm to a GS in the hope it's not polluted enough. It can't be much if we use it for 3rd GP from now.
- convert also Flo to GS.

This revision can be done because we can't have 4 different GPs easily and it's a waste. Another GAge is not needed, IMO. THe only GPs we need are GSs from now on.
I think that at this point we can revolt to SP and later to FR or Theo. In any case we already agreed on the Econ trade with Peter, i suggest to take the one with Chur this same turn.

So, there's this point to agree on and the quick start of the war 2 with Sury, which i think is more than doable with the units i can build and ship to Goldfoot. I can use 2 stacks, one from GF and one from Yasoda to take and raze the new cities. If we want we can even keep Banteay, it's big enough and has enough food and production to be of use.

If we can arrive to a decision soon after dinner i can play tonight.

SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

another mathematician

Deity

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

another mathematician

HoF Quattromaster

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

another mathematician

Deity

another mathematician

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

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