SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

[Shaandore]

You're a mathematician after all, i am a financial controller well used to produce careful cost/benefits reports The problem is that in RL i know well the variants, but in this darn game they are far more difficult to take in account.

OK, so we go for Communism.(can you hear the notes of the Internationale?) Sure

New research plan
1) don't start researching SM, but finish RP. Slowly, accumulating some gold.
Did i become crazy? no, see:
2) we decided to not revolt to SP until the end of the GAge, 20 turns from now.
Maybe we can do it mid-GA. 0% on SM won't get us too far, so I would try and get there ASAP. Time it so we can do a 100% run to communism after SM bulb. This is the best way to take the most out of it, since it has a better per turn income, so in order to pay for itself earlier, we need to get it ASAP.

In other words, we can get communism say x turns from now. Let's say wonders go obsolete y truns from now. I'll first minimize x (see if I can do it 13 turns from now, the first option to switch back to SP if we do the civic switch on first turn of GA, otherwise a bit later), and then maximize y so our wonders stay alive for as long as possible.
3) we want to maximize the benefits of our WWs, so why obsolete them before we need to?
True, but it is easy to see that our WWs are minor terms compared to this huge economy. In both calculations (yours and mine).
4) RP is 2632b, so @930bpt*40% is 7 turns. Maybe you can get it in 6 with some conquest gold, then you start SM.
We don't really need RP, only for the techs beyond. But they should wait for our main economic tech.
5) we research it @0% until we see that the GS can bulb some less beakers than the remainder
6) at that point we're in GAge and if we push the research we can finish Commu in 3-4 turns

In this way we delay the obsolescence of our WWs, but not the turn when we start to run SP.
See above
In the meantime our workers can convert some farm to WS and/or watermills. Cottages will stay untouched, like resources and farms to chain irrigation. Naturally.

The rest of your PPP is OK, so you can start when you like.

Answers in green

EDIT: of course I'll make sure that y>8 so we don't obslote the Parthenon too early and get the GPerson of Ulm on schedule.

EDIT2: my TS won't last this long But I strongly believe that this is the best way to do it. I'll probably hand over a few turns after the GA's beginning.

Think about this: we always go for economic tech first when trying to get over research bottlenecks. In this case Communism is the economic tech, but has a minor obsoleteing problem. So we push SciMeth to the latest possible date while getting communism as soon as we can.

 

[BLubmuz]

It is also clear thatin order to make Communism good, we will need a lot of workshops. The more we build, the better it will be.

I used a fixed number of turns (90) to make my calculations. Actually 70, because SP comes in play in 20 turns from now. Also the 8 turns for SM can be delayed as i posted few minutes ago.

I used far less WS - but some watermill - in my calculations, so under the hammer aspect they show less benefits than yours. But they're not an average, they are the present/near future (10-15 turns) situation.

What convinced me was the differnce between gold (dry) and beakers (before multipliers). Even if we consider a .25% on average they are just a few more.

But the hammers, which can be turned on gold did: at present not only we have a few WS, but many cities are not working them. Once the cities have the basic structures (rathaus, granary, forge, library, maybe a market or a grocer) they can start building whealth until we reach the break even @ 100% research.

 

[unclethrill]

If a deviation can give us a faster finish, i presume you agree to deviate

My numbers seem to say so, thus i presume you can agree.

I agree if it is faster but both you and Shan have repeatedly proven and disproven whether it will so I'm on board either way at this point.

 

[BLubmuz]

my TS won't last this long But I strongly believe that this is the best way to do it. I'll probably hand over a few turns after the GA's beginning.

Unless you want be killed (virtually) your TS will finish 1 turn after the GAge launch

Think about this: we always go for economic tech first when trying to get over research bottlenecks. In this case Communism is the economic tech, but has a minor obsoleteing problem. So we push SciMeth to the latest possible date while getting communism as soon as we can.

In any case we can't have Commu by the beginning of the GAge, at best we can have it 5 turns in. But you must also take in account that we lose the benefit of the 100% GPP in GAge.

 

[Shaandore]

I'll start playing soon.

I think we basically agree on everything. I'll just accumulate gold for now, doing 0% turns on SciMeth. Now it takes 4 turns of full research to tech Communism. We will see how much gold we have 6 turns from now, when I'll stop and report.

Then we will decide on when/how to bulb, and maybe decide on GPP strategy for the GA too, and I will finish the last 3 turns accordingly, and hand over on turn 1 of GA.

Once I get a green light on 0% SciMeth for 6 turns, I can start.

 

[unclethrill]

As close to a green light as I could find.

 

[Folket]

Folket, can you please find the time to read that bunch of numbers and tell something?

I was sleeping and today I'm going to a wedding. But it seems like my input is not needed right now. If we are able to steal economics (from peter?) communism will pay for itself even faster. We should preper to have 3 spies ready with 50% modifiers on the turn the great spy gets there.

 

[Shaandore]

Oh man. I played yesterday, it seems like my post got lost. Updating soon.

 

[Shaandore]

In short:
- we had a few attacks fromQin, and I had to attack with some injured siege, but most of them is alive and nearing Beijing with some reinforcements.
- Barb cities taken, moving up north now
- Lots of gold from pillaging, still a lot to do
- We could start a run for SciMeth->Cummunism this turn with the bulb. But then we would get Comm on t4 of GA, so we should stall for 1 more turn.
- Stacks are getting ready for Koishan and Peter.
- Built many workshops, will build a bunch more. The 6 workers from the barb cities are a great help around the westport city.

 

[BLubmuz]

I was sleeping and today I'm going to a wedding.
Have fun!
But it seems like my input is not needed right now. If we are able to steal economics (from peter?) communism will pay for itself even faster. We should preper to have 3 spies ready with 50% modifiers on the turn the great spy gets there.

We (me and Shaan) are planning to obtain Econ from Qin in the peace deal. We need those turns anyway to finish off Sury and to move back west. I already planned every move and we lost almost no time.

 

[BLubmuz]

Oh man. I played yesterday, it seems like my post got lost. Updating soon.

In fact i've seen you was active in the thread. Later i checked and you disappeared and no new posts.

The first thing i see is that you're in late by 1 turn in our war plan. Did you encountered problems? Anyway, you can use 2 stacks. We need to be at the walls of Bei in 2 turns and to take it in 3. Remember to move SW-SW or you be across a river.
BTW i see that Bei has no walls unless Qin builds them while we're arriving. You can bombard with trebs and attack with cannons and nothing can resist.

Barb cities: good job and 6 workers are a great bonus. But we need to accelerate the pillage: it's 17 rounds, so the knight can be helped by the GG chariot or we can forget to have it. I see also 2 more knights in or near Anvil, use them to pillage quickly. The slow movers can finish the job N and be ready to ferry. The last unit will pillage 1 tile of RR.

Hire another artist in Mainz.
Whip the rathaus in Nagara

Time to bulb and push for Commu. We'll then decide when to revolt when we discuss my set. When can you play? I hope soon, you need no inputs, aside some refining i suggested.

 

[Shaandore]

I'm at my mom's, can't continue until tomorrow. Sorry for the delay. War: I had to wait to heal and for reinforcements too. He does throw a couple of units at us each turn. Having badly injured cannons is risky. Even with the pillage of iron and horses he has enough cuirs to be dangerous.

 

[Folket]

It looks pretty good. What I would like to see is the GP plan. What to starve where and how they will be used. I can see 1 GS bulb for SM and 1 for astronomy. After that it is difficult. GMs for bulbing flight and fascism?

 

[BLubmuz]

It looks pretty good. What I would like to see is the GP plan. What to starve where and how they will be used. I can see 1 GS bulb for SM and 1 for astronomy. After that it is difficult. GMs for bulbing flight and fascism?

We can work on that when Shaan finishes his TS. He passes the ball on the 1st turn of the GAge.

I think we can delay any civics change and any decision about GPeople until then.

Once we have the GPeople we'll decide how to use it. We must use 1 GS for SM now, and we can maybe use one for Astro. After that much will depend by which GPeople we can have.

BTW, if we're so unlucky to pop another GS from Ulm, we have the GSpy as a backup.

 

[Shaandore]

Oh. It's a relief if Blub is willing to take over GP planning. I'll try and get Mainz and Florence into position (=big) so they can each get us a GP.

The question is the 3rd GPerson of course. We have to decide that now, but to me Yashowhatever looks like a good candidate. I'll try to let it grow.

I'll finish my TS soon. Coming back with a mini-PPP in a few hours, and I'll play soon after.

 

[BLubmuz]

Oh. It's a relief if Blub is willing to take over GP planning. I'll try and get Mainz and Florence into position (=big) so they can each get us a GP.
I thought it was pretty useless you made a GP plan when i have to put it in action.
Start hire another artist in Mainz.

The question is the 3rd GPerson of course. We have to decide that now, but to me Yashowhatever looks like a good candidate. I'll try to let it grow.

I'll finish my TS soon. Coming back with a mini-PPP in a few hours, and I'll play soon after.

You can even skip it, it's 2 turns if we consider that basically your goals are
- take Beijing
- be decently lucky to pop a non GS from Ulm

I noticed the cities are well set up and the only problem was the pillaging party.

I suggest to stop build cannons for the south, we need more non-siege units. Obviously we need cannons for Peter.

 

[Shaandore]

Ouch. I'm out of luck, wrote a long post, but it got lost. Here it is again:

PPP until next GP is ready:

Research: bulb into SciMeth, change to 100% now.

War: cant take Beijing until then. Form a second stack using the units that have moved in the big stack and some guys from Guangzhou. Send reinforcments in the area of course.

in the north send 1 knight to help the other pillaging. The rest moves to Koishan with the medic.

Cities: Mainz I wouldn't hire any more guys, we will have better GPP muzltipliers during the GA.

Workers build workshops. Grow Florence so it can get us a GP.

 

[BLubmuz]

1) in the north send 1 knight to help the other pillaging. The rest moves to Koishan with the medic.

2) Mainz I wouldn't hire any more guys, we will have better GPP muzltipliers during the GA.

1) one is not enough if you sail the GG. Use both the Kn you have there and the GG or it takes forever.
2) Mainz can have a GP 1 turn after Ulm. If you hire an artist we can have 1 right after Ulm and another during the GAge. The city won't starve and we start sooner with an almost clean gene. With the NE we'll have the first GAge GP from Mainz.

Ouch. I'm out of luck, wrote a long post, but it got lost.

I don't know how your post get lost, but if you use firefox, there's a free component which can take care of this. I used it time ago and it works. Forgot the name, but you can google for it.

 

[Shaandore]

1) one is not enough if you sail the GG. Use both the Kn you have there and the GG or it takes forever.
What I meant is that there will be 2 knights pillaging. One is already in the south. I can send two if you want, but it's a waste IMO. We need the GG to heal the cannons and to start the attack. I wouldn't wait for the knights to finish pillaging, just ship what we have and the cannons with the GG, and take Koishan. This way they can take all the time they need to pillage the place.
2) Mainz can have a GP 1 turn after Ulm. If you hire an artist we can have 1 right after Ulm and another during the GAge. The city won't starve and we start sooner with an almost clean gene. With the NE we'll have the first GAge GP from Mainz.
Alright. I'll do it like that.

I don't know how your post get lost, but if you use firefox, there's a free component which can take care of this. I used it time ago and it works. Forgot the name, but you can google for it.

I'm more of a Chrome guy, but I'll check if there is an extension for it. Thanks for the tip.

I think I accidentally pressed some weird combination while typing. I found myself out of reply mode, and when I went back with forward key all was gone. Which is weird considering that if I press back and forward again, the text stays.

The previous time I just forgot to press submit reply, only pressed the preview, so it's not my browser's fault.

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I can start playing in 30 minutes if that's alright.

 

[unclethrill]

good with me