SGOTM 17 - The Shawshank Redemption

@Jastrow
You seem to have requested that we beeline Education. Can I ask some questions about this idea?


Where do you see us fitting in Iron Working or Alphabet? How about Civil Service for Bureaucracy? Are we completing skipping the self-teching of Construction?


How many techs do you see us Lightbulbing on the path to Education and what will we do to increase the odds of getting the right kind of Great Person? What about a Great Scientist for an Academy and when should such an Academy get built? When do you see us launching a Golden Age for Organized Religion or are we just going to skip using that Civic for our Universities, Rathauses, etc (or will we just take a hit of Anarchy)? How soon can we get those Great People and from which Cities will they need to come from?


As Mitchum mentioned, where are we getting the Hammers from to build a Palace and Oxford University in Prague in the short term?


Once we reach Education, "then what"? Let's say that we need Astronomy to meet other AIs. Will we self-tech up to Astronomy?


Let's say that we don't need Astronomy to reach other AIs. Which units will you see us first going to war with and thus what would be the tech priority order after researching Education? Where in there would we fit in Civil Service if we haven't teched that tech prior to learning Education?
 
Jastrow said:
We will need the population for scientist, and also to whip universities afterwards.
Unfortunately, we have 4 Pig Resources and an addition 8 other Food Resources which cannot be used prior to learning Iron Working.

I did make a case for going for Alphabet for our last tech but we chose to gamble on Mansa going for Alphabet. That gamble did not pay off.

Nothing is going to grow our Cities faster than Iron Working ASAP, plus additional Workers to Chop the Jungles and improve the Resources (and it's hard to get the Workers prior to getting the Jungles Chopped in order to whip more Workers... a "catch 22" situation).

Given our lack of luck with scoring Alphabet, we have to grab that tech next.

Alphabet will come quickly after we steal Mansa's Cities and self-tech Alphabet with City Capture Gold. Unfortunately, we don't have enough improved Food Resources to be able to make Representation an efficient Civic just yet... that option will come after we learn Alphabet and have a larger Worker army working for us (whether we whip Horse Archers and steal Workers or just whip Workers, we're going to need to do a lot of whipping before Representation is really going to work its magic).


The best way to break a catch 22 situation is to change the rules... don't worry about self-building more Workers when you can steal them and don't worry about slowly getting to Alphabet when we can steal Gold and then get Alphabet quickly.


Sure, had Mansa gone for Alphabet for us by now, we'd have had more options on the table... but now we're really far behind on getting our Resources connected, so a small handful of Workers won't be sufficient to make up for being behind on Worker actions and we'll need to take Mansa's Workers into our own hands to help get caught up.


Jastrow said:
Both, plus the nonesense of falling in love with PS (Which Dhoom already has).
I haven't fallen in love with Police State any more than you have with Representation. Both Civics have their uses. Representation is great when most of your Cities have their Food Resources online. Police State is great when you either have large Cities with a lot of Hills squares being worked or when you don't have too many improved squares and thus can turn those citizens into Military Units via whipping.

Given our shortage of access to 12 Food Resources, whipping away citizens will be our best way of rectifying the situation and getting more of those Food Resources improved ASAP.


Mitchum said:
Isn't the Education beeline CoL (from Mansa) - CS - Paper - Education?
Probably, but it's not so much the tech order that interests me but how to manage all of the variables (Hammers in Prague, Great People, getting our 12 Food Resources and 2 Commerce Resources online--which may mean tech order alterations, any warring between now and then--which may mean tech order alterations, and what to do with Education and Oxford once we have them--so we can make a lot of Flasks per turn... once we can do so, then what do we do) that really interests me.
 
As I said, not a single has connected to anyone else trade network. This despite being around turn 80 on an advanced start, with trading on rivers and coast already enabled, and the AI starting with extra workers... Unless you have some other wacky explanation, I think it is pretty clear what the map maker did.
I looked in the test game at the F9 Demographics screen. There I see this information:
Exports - Imports
Value = 0
Rival Best = 0
Rival Average = 0
Rival Worst = 0
Rank = 7

If I look at the F4 Info screen, I see 6 Commerce coming from Montezuma, with a Total Yield of 6 from 3 Trade Routes if I hover my mouse over top of that "6 Commerce" icon.


In the real game, I see this information on the F9 Demographics screen:
Exports - Imports
Value = -1
Rival Best = 1
Rival Average = 0
Rival Worst = 0
Rank = 7

In the real game, I see I identical info in regards to Trade Routes on the F4 Info screen.



"Exports - Imports" being 0 for every AI other than Mansa (or at most tying him with 1), to me, simply implies one of two things:
1. The F9 Demographics screen does not reveal info about other Civs, such as Civs that we haven't met or don't have sufficient EPPs on
OR
2. None of the AIs who know each other are in a situation where only one of X neighbours knows Currency... either all neighbours know Currency or none of them know Currency (EDIT: or, if an AI knows Currency, it has an equal number of Cities or more Cities than all of its neighbours' Cities, such that there are no "extra" Foreign Trade Routes coming in via knowing Currency). Also, it seems to imply that no AI has an island City (EDIT: or, at most, there is one island City in the hands of a neighbour of any AI that ties with Mansa).


There is nothing from that info which indicates to me that "no AI has Trade Routes" with another AI.
 
To me, PS and Representation are tools. Until we've agreed on our higher-level strategy, I think it's better to leave this decision for later. For example, if we agree that we should DoW on Mansa soonish, then we can compare with and without PS and determine whether the hammers gained are worth the turn of anarchy. I'm not sold on PS yet if we're just building up for Mansa.

@Mitchum....

Look at the discussion about PS... The discussion is not IF, but WHEN we switch to it for the long haul, and the options being discussed are now, or a few turns from now. It is that nonsense I am so strongly objecting to.

I am also trying to warn against what I already see happening... You may want to just build a small efficient force to take out MM. As soon as you start that, I strongly expect we get carried away...

And yes, I think that moving the capital is a very real option.
 
@Mitchum...

As I said, I am all for efficient war....

12 Horse Archers will not be enough Horse Archers.

I would plan to have 12 to 15 Horse Archers for Timbuktu to make sure that we capture the City smoothly...ing a City.

So, 22 Horse Archers is my targeted goal.

Anyone who wants to World Build in 12 Horse Archers and show me the magic of how to capture Djenne and Timbuktu 8 out of 10 tries is welcome to amaze me.

Try again with 22 Horse Archers and show me more than 1 out of 10 tries where we fail to capture both Cities.

But, if we want Timbuktu in the initial assault, let's plan for 22 Horse Archers.

I repeat... I think this is a disastrous approach to this game!
 
@Jastrow
You seem to have requested that we beeline Education. Can I ask some questions about this idea?


If they are real questions, then yes.

Where do you see us fitting in Iron Working or Alphabet? How about Civil Service for Bureaucracy? Are we completing skipping the self-teching of Construction?

I would likely self-tech construction as well... I still prefer to get both IW and Alpha in trades. I dont think we need to panic and self tech those ourself first... I am also not proposing explicitly a beeline, so much as I am saying we need to be preparing for deep research. As Mitchum has pointed out, Astro also has some merit in this same approach.

How many techs do you see us Lightbulbing on the path to Education and what will we do to increase the odds of getting the right kind of Great Person?

I see us bulbing education only, and settling other GS, but I am flexible on options there. The next GS likely would Academy Prague

When do you see us launching a Golden Age for Organized Religion or are we just going to skip using that Civic for our Universities, Rathauses, etc (or will we just take a hit of Anarchy)?

I would probably try to time things to revolt into Rep at the start of a golden age, and Org Rel at the end of the same one.

How soon can we get those Great People and from which Cities will they need to come from?

Details which are a distraction to the discussion...


As Mitchum mentioned, where are we getting the Hammers from to build a Palace and Oxford University in Prague in the short term?

Medium term...

Once we reach Education, "then what"? Let's say that we need Astronomy to meet other AIs. Will we self-tech up to Astronomy?

Oh, if you want to argue astro before Oxford, I am happy to listen... This is not the current discussion. Astro is much more in line with my vision of this game than the current plan.

Let's say that we don't need Astronomy to reach other AIs. Which units will you see us first going to war with and thus what would be the tech priority order after researching Education?

I see us romping with cavalry or similar.... I dont see some primeavil need to take out the next AI unless handed to us on a silver plater, until we are ready to sweep the board.

Where in there would we fit in Civil Service if we haven't teched that tech prior to learning Education?

Usually, prior to education, but again... Details...
 
Isn't the Education beeline CoL (from Mansa) - CS - Paper - Education?

Yes, that would be my default... But again, I am not opposed to mixing in some other techs... Maybe I should have suggested a "research beeline", instead, to make my vision more clear.
 
I haven't fallen in love with Police State any more than you have with Representation.

My point exactly... We will not agree... I am in love with representation in this situation, and you with Police state. I expect you are in the majority, as I said from the beginning. As such, that is the path we will take forward...
 
"Exports - Imports" being 0 for every AI other than Mansa (or at most tying him with 1), to me, simply implies one of two things:
1. The F9 Demographics screen does not reveal info about other Civs, such as Civs that we haven't met or don't have sufficient EPPs on

Exceedingly unlikely, given how the rest of the screen works...


2. None of the AIs who know each other are in a situation where only one of X neighbours knows Currency... either all neighbours know Currency or none of them know Currency (EDIT: or, if an AI knows Currency, it has an equal number of Cities or more Cities than all of its neighbours' Cities, such that there are no "extra" Foreign Trade Routes coming in via knowing Currency). Also, it seems to imply that no AI has an island City (EDIT: or, at most, there is one island City in the hands of a neighbour of any AI that ties with Mansa).


To be clear, you are suggesting that AI do know each other, but they have:

-Identical number of cities connected to their trade network and have had such for every turn since they have met (at least the turns I played, since I checked the screen each turn)
-have the same currency status (that is likely enough, none could have currency)


There is nothing from that info which indicates to me that "no AI has Trade Routes" with another AI.

Absolute proof... no.... indicated? Certainly... At the least, it indicated contact is very limited... Maybe two AI have met, and meet the above criterion, but the odds of 3 or more? Very unlikely.
 
To be clear, you are suggesting that AI do know each other, but they have:

-Identical number of cities connected to their trade network and have had such for every turn since they have met (at least the turns I played, since I checked the screen each turn)
-have the same currency status (that is likely enough, none could have currency)
No, the AIs do not need to have the same number of Cities as each other.

If AI #1 has 6 Cities and AI #2 has 8 Cities, then AI #1 will get 1 Foreign Trade Route per City (6 Foreign Trade Routes, 1 from each of AI #2's top 6 Cities for Trade Routes). AI #2 will get 6 Foreign Trade Routes and will have 2 Domestic Trade Routes, since you can't duplicate foreign Cities in your Foreign Trade Routes.

AI #1 and AI #2 will both be importing 6 and exporting 6, giving an Exports - Imports value of 0 for both of them.

Could an AI be isolated? Sure. Could multiple AIs be isolated? Sure. But do the numbers conclusively say how many AIs are isolated? Not that I can tell.

The best way to know will probably be to look for ourselves, such as sending a Spy to the west past the Barb City (or, as Mitchum suggested could be possible, send a few Horse Archers such that the Barb Units won't be tempted to attack our stack and just walk past the Barb City).


I also showed how the same Currency status is not necessary either... in my example above, if AI #2 has Currency, he won't get any more Foreign Trade Routes from AI #1, regardless of whether AI #1 has Currency. But, it does show that at least AI #1 cannot have Currency unless AI #2 only has one more City or an equal number of Cities as AI #1.
 
Exports - Imports
I have been playing around with AI Cities a little bit and looking at Exports - Imports values.

Probably the best thing to do would be to load up some old saved games where you can dip into the World Builder and look at various values. then use Great Spies plus the Infiltrate Mission as well as the "Reveal Tile Mode" -> "Reveal All Tiles" option to check out what is going on in individual Cities. Since old BOTM games won't let you mess around with the World Builder, older games, such as our test games, or test games from other teams from SGOTM 16 or earlier (not SGOTM 17!) might be the ticket to getting more info.

But, from some rudimentary playing around, it looks like Jastrow is right such that if there are three or more AIs that have Trade Routes with each other, or at least one AI that has with Trade Routes with 2 or more AIs, you're far more likely to see a greater difference in the numbers (i.e. you'll see bigger or smaller numbers than 1 and -1).


So, it is certainly possible that there are two groups of 2 AIs, Mansa, and 1 isolated AI. Or, there could be 5 isolated AIs, or some combination thereof of groups of 1 or 2 AIs who have Trade Routes with each other (note that who has Trade Routes with whom says nothing about who knows whom and thus the tech-trading game could be a completely different story).

But, it is also possible that there are 5 AIs out there who know each other but have Barb Cities blocking Trade Routes between them.

So, the AIs could be tech-trading and could all be reached without needing Paratroopers or Astronomy. We can't really know given the small amount of data available to us.


Settler for Mansa?
I mentioned this idea earlier... do we want to build a 4th City for Mansa? One good part is that we could pick where it goes. Another good part is that we can build Settlers relatively cheaply. Another good part is that if he settles a 4th City all by himself, we can just re-use the Settler for a City on the west coast. A final good part is that we can gift this City to Mansa shortly before starting the war (say, 1 turn sooner) so that he'll be tempted to send 2 Military Units to defend the City (or maybe on the turn of declaring war, so that he doesn't feel tempted to build too many new units).


Horse Archer Army
Note that "22 Horse Archers" are a renewable Resource. The survivors can be used to take down Mansa's Gems City and could be used against the western Barb City (or, if our one of our two southern Cultural Bridge attempts works, against a southern AI). That's the whole point of Military Units... their initial cost when weighed against 1 single battle is often questionable, but those that can survive to fight 2 or more battles are where you see the real gains.


Southern City
Like Jastrow, I'm not convinced that a City settled to the south would earn us Intercontinental Trade Routes... that was not the case in the test game, which was supposedly designed to roughly mimic the amount of water in the real game... you need a lot of water to set up an Intercontinental area. The fact that there is Ocean next to the south-western Peaks instead of just wide open Ocean also makes it seem that we'll see Peaks connecting "our" landmass to any southern landmass.

That said, when we finally do get a path to the south (via Culture Bridges in 2 turns' time or via a Great Artist or other means later), it might be a reasonable idea to build such a City... as it would give us a "staging point" into which to dump a bunch of Military Units that are shuttled via Galleys, without incurring Unit Supply Costs and without needing a massive Galley army.


More Water in the Real Game
Actually, looking closer, 1405 = the Land denominator of our Score in the real game, but 1551 = the Land denominator of our Score in the test game.

So, maybe we should be expecting more water on the map. That fact may point to Astronomy, granted.

Still, I'm not an Oxford-beeline expert, but I'm pretty certain that even if we do manage to move our capital to Prague in the short term (because otherwise, Bureaucracy won't be powerful), it will take us a lot longer to get to Astronomy via Education than via ignoring Meditation + Civil Service + Theology and dual-Lightbulbing Astronomy.

That said, I bring us back to an earlier point: if Astronomy is required, on a small map like this one, a Great Artist Bomb actually becomes a very powerful tool, allowing us to skip Astronomy altogether, whether you would have teched it via Education or via Lightbulbing.

But, we'll know in just over 2 turns' time what we're up against to the south... a deep Ocean or a chance to reach the next AI.


If we do need a Great Artist or Astronomy, we can grab Code of Laws in trade by grabbing Alphabet and then can use Caste System to generate a Great Artist.


Military Techs
Otherwise, if we do meet the next AI, the discussion will first turn to maximizing our tech trading and then deciding whether we will need Horse Archers, Knights, or something more powerful to take on the next AI.

If Mansa limps his way to Feudalism sometime after we take his best Cities, that'll be ideal, as we can trade for it when the time is right, saving us 1 tech on the path to Guilds, leaving us only needing to research Metal Casting -> Machinery -> Guilds.

Machinery + Construction also opens up Engineering for faster Road movement and Trebs (and unlocks our junky Unique Unit that is a Pikeman with +100% bonus against Melee units, meaning only that they don't get totally pwned by Macemen, but are still no better against Longbowmen or Musketmen... not much of a valuable unique bonus for your Unique Unit).

Basically, we have a lot of options pre-Cavalry. In fact, Cavalry do NOT get immunity from First Strikes, so they might not be any stronger against Skirms than Cuirassiers, and if we wait for either of those units, we'll be facing Longbowmen out of Mansa anyway.

If we then decide that we need to tech deeply, knowing both Code of Laws and Feudalism will make Civil Service slightly cheaper. ;)

Clicking on the F6 screen on Military Tradition + Rifling (the two techs required for Cavalry) shows us needing to learn 23 techs before we get there. Personally, I'd much prefer to use earlier Military Units against Mansa and at least a couple of AIs (via Cultural Bridges, Great Artist Bombs, going through Barb Cities, or whatever it takes to reach them) then use Rathauses + our large amount of land... which mostly means ignoring the negative impacts of Maintenance by expanding... to power our way through any extra techs needed to deal with the final AIs.
 
The last time I saw into Mansa's city Djenne, there were 2 unpromoted skirmishers in it. That was in 350 AD (6 turns ago).

@ Dhoom Do you really think we'd need that many HAs? Say 7 for Djenne and 13 for Timbuktu = 20. Any survivors from these two attacks can be used to take Kumbi Saleh.

Why don't we gift Double Bananas to Mansa for a spell. This would accomplish at least 3 things. First, it would pull defenders from Timbuktu to this city. Second, it would force Mansa to either build more workers or send a few south for easier worker steals. Third, it would give Mansa a handful to turns to chop a few jungles for us. I think I'd rather do this than build yet another settler for this purpose. Other than the 4 +1 TRs and being able to work a banana hamlet, this city won't make or break our economy if we give it away for a few turns.

I'll let those ideas sit while I work on my next post, which will formulate my ideas for a plan going forward.
 
Looking at the power graph, Mansa's spiked by quite a bit the last 2 turns. I wonder if that signifies that he learned Feudalism. Mansa is only threatening with axemen right now. I'm pretty sure he'd threaten with LBs if he knew the tech, right?

Load test game... Shaka brags about axemen. I give him Feudalism... and he still brags about his axemen.

So it's possible that Mansa just learned Feudalism, which provides 0 power??? What? Archery provides 6K soldiers and Feudalism provides 0??? I just verified this in the test game and it's true.

So forget that. We can't correllate Mansa's power spike directly to Feudalism unless he used it to upgrade several skirmishers (4K soldiers) to LBs (6K soldiers).

Based on the espionage screen:

450 AD
Timbuktu: 79 hammers
Djenne: 93 hammers
Kumbi Saleh: 27 hammers

475 AD
Timbuktu: 0 hammers
Djenne: 0 hammers
Kumbi Saleh: 30 hammers

500 AD
Timbuktu: 10 hammers
Djenne: 0 hammers
Kumbi Saleh: 33 hammers

So it's possible that Mansa completed 2 settlers in 475 AD, one from Timbuktu and one from Djenne. We should find out in the next turn or two... Even if he does settle a city, it may still make sense to gift him Double Bananas.
 
That said, when we finally do get a path to the south (via Culture Bridges in 2 turns' time or via a Great Artist or other means later), it might be a reasonable idea to build such a City... as it would give us a "staging point" into which to dump a bunch of Military Units that are shuttled via Galleys, without incurring Unit Supply Costs and without needing a massive Galley army.


That said, I bring us back to an earlier point: if Astronomy is required, on a small map like this one, a Great Artist Bomb actually becomes a very powerful tool, allowing us to skip Astronomy altogether, whether you would have teched it via Education or via Lightbulbing.

Huh??? How in the world does a great artist help us in either case??? We already have cities on the coast which have border popped.... What more can the great artist do???
 
Looking at the power graph, Mansa's spiked by quite a bit the last 2 turns. I wonder if that signifies that he learned Feudalism. Mansa is only threatening with axemen right now. I'm pretty sure he'd threaten with LBs if he knew the tech, right?

I am not sure... I do not remember ever being treatened with LB... Could it be they are viewed as a purely defensive unit?

Load test game... Shaka brags about axemen. I give him Feudalism... and he still brags about his axemen.

Well, if he did learn Feudalism, then our HA window has closed (Honestly, I actually would not be unhappy with that tun of events)

So it's possible that Mansa just learned Feudalism, which provides 0 power??? What? Archery provides 6K soldiers and Feudalism provides 0??? I just verified this in the test game and it's true.

Weird....but also confirmed in the "inner workings of the democracy screen" article.

So forget that. We can't correllate Mansa's power spike directly to Feudalism unless he used it to upgrade several skirmishers (4K soldiers) to LBs (6K soldiers).

Can you post the picture of the power graph, so that we can try to estimate values more accurately.

Several techs he could have learnt would have some value. For example: MC, Compass, Construction, Math, HBR, IW, etc.... (or Feudalism, as you say, inderectly.)
 
Let's drop the PS/Representation debate for second. As I said, depending on our path forward, I think that which civics to run becomes obvious.

In my mind, we have three options when it comes to taking out Mansa which is something that we all agree should happen soonish.

1. Whip out an army of HAs and take him down to one city ASAP (or out if we get the techs we want from him).
2. Turtle for a bit, focus 100% on research, and whip out an army later when we have something better like elepults.
3. Middle approach where we slowly build several HAs while doing our best to research another tech (Construction?) and use the slowly build HAs plus a handful of elepults to take out Mansa.

In my opinion, we should stick with either option 1 or 2. If you're going to do something in Civ, just do it. Don't mess around with a middle-of-the-road approach. Go all in or don't do it. So we should either go all in on the research path or all in on the war path.

Personally, I'm opposed to the research path for a few reasons:

1. Assuming that we need to tech deep into the tech tree is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If we slow down or postpone our warring to focus on research, we will have to research deeper into the tech tree because by the time we get to the later AIs, the more advanced they will be and the more advanced we will have to be.

Side story: there was an Immortal-level WOTM several years ago where we played as Cyrus. I teched to AH, found horses, set research to 0% on turn 25 or something like that and spammed nothing but Immortals for the rest of the game. Immortals get 50% vs. archers and Immortal AI build pretty much nothing but archers early on. I steamrolled the first few AI. I still kept research at 0% and continued to crank out Immortals. By the time I reached the last AI, he was quite a bit more advanced than me but I had a ton of promoted Immortals and I swarmed him. I got a Conquest victory right around 1 AD. The other players that won that game used Immortals to take out one or two AI, teched up the tech tree to maces or knights or something further and continued on. Their victories were around 1000 AD or much later. By just thinking that they had to research deep, they actually did have to research deep because by the time they could reach the furthest AI he already had Riflemen or something more advanced.

At this point in the game, we don't "know" how deep we have to research. It's best not to assume anything at this point.

2. Civ is a game about leveraging any advantage that you have. I can see us having a military advantage at Horse Archers, elepults, maces/trebs, knight, cuirs and cavalry. We need to pick one of those advantages and go for it. Based on my experience with warring, the earlier you go the easier it is... unless you have something like tanks against rifles but that's not happening against Immortal AI. Why is it better to go earlier? Because the AI has fewer, weaker units defending the cities. Plus, the earlier you have the cities, they earlier that they can work for you as opposed to against you.

3. We really need to get a galley in the ocean in the NW. It seems that Jastrow is of the opinion that we can just wait to explore up there, focus on research, take out Mansa in due time, and then start exploring. I tend to think that the sooner we know what's ahead, the sooner we can put a real plan in place to address it as opposed to assuming things.

4. I'm not proposing that we skip Construction, but if we take out Mansa ASAP and find out through exploration that elepults won't work well on this map, we could skip Construction and focus on Education. In Jastrow's proposal, Construction is pretty much required as I think he's suggesting elepults against Mansa. So, using HBR to take out Mansa could possibly lead to a sooner Education if that's the approach that makes sense based on our earlier exploration. Plus we'll have more cities and a bigger empire sooner which also lends it self to faster teching, especially if the cities you capture are mature and pay for themselves like Mansa's would.


Regarding what to tech next, I see three options:

1. Tech IW, which is arguably the most important tech we could have right now. This puts thing fully into our own hands.
2. Tech Alphabet and then trade for IW plus CoL, Monarchy and whatever else we can get. If Mansa should finish Alphabet before us, we won't actually lose the beakers we've put into Alphabet as we'll be able to get those beakers back by not having to trade as big a tech away to get Alphabet (or the rest of Alphabet in this case).
3. Tech Construction with the plan to launch an elepult war against Mansa and/or other reachable AI. This approach heavily relies on Mansa teching Alphabet for us. If he doesn't do it in a timely fashion, we will be faced with the choice 10 turns from now whether to finally research IW our Alphabet ourselves.

My vote is option 2. Let's just tech Alphabet and take control of our own destiny.

So my proposal is:

1. Research Alphabet at 0% until we can get the whole thing at 100% and then go for it. We should be able to get there in 8 to 10 turns depending on how aggressive we build up our army vs. building Wealth.

2. Crank out a stack of HAs to take out Djenne and Timbuktu. Not too big, not too small, but big enough to take the cities on T0 and T3 of the war. Whether to revolt to PS can easily be determined in a test game. Based on Dhoom's math for 12 HAs, it probably is worth it but I'd like to see the difference in a test game.

3. Gift Mansa Double Bananas and watch for wandering skirmishers and/or workers to pick off on the first turn of the war.

4. Have a settler built that we can plop down west of Timbuktu and crank out a galley ASAP... unless Mansa settles another city up there before we can do it.

Looking at the cities, Timbuktu will actually make a better Oxford city than Prague. Prague has 2 cottages and it's possible that the banana cottage will be converted to a plantation. Timbuktu has 5 already maturing riverside cottages that could prove to be a research powerhouse. With 10 pops there, we could whip a library and be on our way.

@ Jastrow

I know that you're not on board with this HA plan and you'll likely never be convinced that it's the best approach. However, I'm sure that you'd be the first to admit that warring is not your expertise or your preferred approach. Early warring does have its uses and based on my experience, now is a golden opportunity to strike. We want Mansa's cities. We want Mansa's workers. We want Mansa's techs. We want to explore the NW ocean.

Earlier warring gets us all of those things earlier except for possibly Mansa's techs which we can still get quite soon. If Mansa or we learn Alphabet before we DoW or after the war is over, we'll get them at the same time whether we war ASAP or not. If Mansa or we learn Alphabet during the war, then the war may delay when we do get the techs by several turns but not too many. I see this is a surgical war. We take Djenne on T0, Timbuktu on T3 and possibly Kumi Saleh on T4 or T5 and then we sign a CF and trade techs (or sign a Peace Treaty and get a bunch of techs for "free").

Early warring with Mansa will put us in a much stronger position going forward than waiting... my opinion of course.
 
Here is the power graph. You can see that our spike happened in 1 turn with HBR (+10K) so it looks like Mansa's took place over 2 turns and is closer to +8K.

Spoiler :
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Well, if he did learn Feudalism, then our HA window has closed (Honestly, I actually would not be unhappy with that tun of events)

Ouch, that hurts. :lol:

Honestly, be careful what you wish for. If Mansa does have a ton of LBs, it means that we'll have to invest even more hammers into a war with him than the 20ish HAs Dhoom wants. It delays everthing in the game other than when we learn Construction which we'll almost surely have to research either next or after Alphabet. That would truely be painful.
 
@ Jastrow

I know that you're not on board with this HA plan and you'll likely never be convinced that it's the best approach. However, I'm sure that you'd be the first to admit that warring is not your expertise or your preferred approach.

Agreed... but to be clear... This is because I dont think it is the best approach for quick science games...

Early warring does have its uses and based on my experience, now is a golden opportunity to strike. We want Mansa's cities. We want Mansa's workers. We want Mansa's techs. We want to explore the NW ocean.

Yes to all, but now, or in 20 turns... I dont care much... My problem with this is the crippling effect on our economy/tech... We are now talking about adding some 30+ gpt to our costs, for units alone. This will cripple our research completly.

I see this is a surgical war.

Trowwing 12 HA at a city... I see nothing surgical about that.

Early warring with Mansa will put us in a much stronger position going forward than waiting... my opinion of course.

Yep, and as I have said repeatedly, not mine...
 
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