Mitchum
Deity
I say CF with GK now and aim to get another worker before the one in the area moves too far away.
SGOTM 18 - The Shawshank Redemption
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Dhoomstriker
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Joao has a Scout 2S of Mansa's capital of Djenne, which was spotted by Fembot.
Okay, it's clear that we disagree on Mansa's role right now. Let's wait until next turn to decide, with some extra info of what units Mansa has in his capital.
If he has a smaller military presence, an emphasis on receiving his Missionaries seems relatively more appropriate. If he has a sizeable army built, leveraging that army seems relatively more appropriate.
In the meantime, I'll delay the Cease Fire with Genghis for 1 turn and will keep both Workers on the Grassland 1SW of the Copper (or would you rather that I move them?).
If I move the Warriors, it would be to send one 1W GH and one 1S GH, such that they'd each be within a 1-turn range of the squares to the west and south of the Copper that we plan to move the Warriors to. The danger with doing so is that if a Worker moves to the Copper in between turns, we risk an Archer moving to cover the Worker on the following turn.
The danger of not moving is a minor chance that there is a Chariot on the G Riv square 2E of where the Warriors stand or on the G For square 2N of where the Warriors stand... low risk squares, but not 0% chances.
Okay, it's clear that we disagree on Mansa's role right now. Let's wait until next turn to decide, with some extra info of what units Mansa has in his capital.
If he has a smaller military presence, an emphasis on receiving his Missionaries seems relatively more appropriate. If he has a sizeable army built, leveraging that army seems relatively more appropriate.
In the meantime, I'll delay the Cease Fire with Genghis for 1 turn and will keep both Workers on the Grassland 1SW of the Copper (or would you rather that I move them?).
If I move the Warriors, it would be to send one 1W GH and one 1S GH, such that they'd each be within a 1-turn range of the squares to the west and south of the Copper that we plan to move the Warriors to. The danger with doing so is that if a Worker moves to the Copper in between turns, we risk an Archer moving to cover the Worker on the following turn.
The danger of not moving is a minor chance that there is a Chariot on the G Riv square 2E of where the Warriors stand or on the G For square 2N of where the Warriors stand... low risk squares, but not 0% chances.
Dhoomstriker
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If we Cease Fire with Genghis now, then decide that Mansa is too weak to go up against Joao relative to Mansa's value of spreading Judaism to us, then how long are you willing to wait to get Aesthetics from Mansa... if it takes us 3 turns to steal the next Worker from Genghis, are you willing to wait that long?
All of these decisions are inter-linked.
All of these decisions are inter-linked.
Dhoomstriker
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Mansa's Power is nearly identical to ours on the Demographics graphs, if that helps (i.e. he doesn't have a particularly large army).
For reference, we currently have:
3 Archers, 4 Warriors, and 1 Scout
For reference, we currently have:
3 Archers, 4 Warriors, and 1 Scout
Mitchum
Deity
I don't care if Mansa looks weak. If he DoWs Joao, he'll start spamming units. He may also draw a few of Joao's units his way instead of ours.
If we CF GK now, won't his worker most likely move right back to the copper?
I'm away from the game typing on my phone, so I can't comment on the two warriors.
If we CF GK now, won't his worker most likely move right back to the copper?
I'm away from the game typing on my phone, so I can't comment on the two warriors.
Mitchum
Deity
Some if our power comes from MC. But again, I personally don't care how weak he is. Taking down Joao is ten times more important than stealing workers from GK in the grand scheme of things in my opinion.
Dhoomstriker
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Us getting Judaism in additional Cities like Corn and Cap can mean not only 40 free Hammers but also several free Hammers in Buildings (hard to quantify, but let's say an average of 30 Hammers per City in between the time of Mansa sending Judaism to us and us manually spreading Judaism to our Cities later).
Further, it gives us flexibility for spreading Judaism... if we spread it manually all from Pig City, it will take longer than if we can spread it from 2 or 3 different "source" Cities.
It's hard to say what Genghis' Workers will do, but they will probably finish their current tasks and then consider moving to the Copper... which may mean next turn or it may mean a couple of turns from now.
We have 70% of Mansa's Power according to the BUFFY info on the Scoreboard.
If 1 Warrior = 2, 1 Archer = 3, and 1 Skirm = 4, then we have:
4 * 2 + 3 * 3 = 8 + 9 = 17
17 / 0.7 = 24.25
24 / 4 = 6
So, Mansa has 6 Skirms... 2 per City... and thus may not even have a free unit to send toward Joao at all... at most 1 free unit, since 2 must stay in his capital, 1 must stay in his second City, and 2 must stay in his third City until he's owned it for 10 turns' time.
If he goes to war with Joao, Joao may Pillage him.
If he goes to war with Genghis, he's far more likely to build units that will get trapped... thus, he'll be more likely to build up an army in relative peace (for use against Joao later), while still being able to send Jewish Missionaries our way.
I can upload the odd small screenshot to CFC, if I keep deleting older uploaded saved games, so here's one of Genghis' area:
Unfortunately, my normal image server still seems to be down.
Further, it gives us flexibility for spreading Judaism... if we spread it manually all from Pig City, it will take longer than if we can spread it from 2 or 3 different "source" Cities.
It's hard to say what Genghis' Workers will do, but they will probably finish their current tasks and then consider moving to the Copper... which may mean next turn or it may mean a couple of turns from now.
We have 70% of Mansa's Power according to the BUFFY info on the Scoreboard.
If 1 Warrior = 2, 1 Archer = 3, and 1 Skirm = 4, then we have:
4 * 2 + 3 * 3 = 8 + 9 = 17
17 / 0.7 = 24.25
24 / 4 = 6
So, Mansa has 6 Skirms... 2 per City... and thus may not even have a free unit to send toward Joao at all... at most 1 free unit, since 2 must stay in his capital, 1 must stay in his second City, and 2 must stay in his third City until he's owned it for 10 turns' time.
If he goes to war with Joao, Joao may Pillage him.
If he goes to war with Genghis, he's far more likely to build units that will get trapped... thus, he'll be more likely to build up an army in relative peace (for use against Joao later), while still being able to send Jewish Missionaries our way.
I can upload the odd small screenshot to CFC, if I keep deleting older uploaded saved games, so here's one of Genghis' area:
Spoiler :
Unfortunately, my normal image server still seems to be down.
Attachments
Mitchum
Deity
Wasn't it just IBT when GK moved his worker to run from our warrior? So he could move back IBT and we could steal another one next turn. If we wait to CF, the worker could move further away or start an action that takes 4+ turns. I still say CF now.
Eyes on the prize = Swingers Pad = Joao. I feel strongly about sicking Mansa on Joao. If you strongly disagree, I suggest we wait for at least one other person to state a preference.
Eyes on the prize = Swingers Pad = Joao. I feel strongly about sicking Mansa on Joao. If you strongly disagree, I suggest we wait for at least one other person to state a preference.
Mitchum
Deity
You forgot about the soldier value of MC in your analysis. But again, I don't care what units Mansa has right now.
Dhoomstriker
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I'm also fine with sicking Mansa on Joao... but I'd prefer to do so a bit later on, after we've gotten Judaism in 2, preferably 3 Cities and after Mansa's built up an army while being in a fake war against Genghis.
A third option is to forget dragging Mansa into a war now, so that we can do so "at will" at a later time, lose the extra Flask value of Metal Casting and instead get some Fair and Forthright Trading benefit from Mansa (probably 0.4 worth or something), then push our way toward Horseback Riding ASAP.
A third option is to forget dragging Mansa into a war now, so that we can do so "at will" at a later time, lose the extra Flask value of Metal Casting and instead get some Fair and Forthright Trading benefit from Mansa (probably 0.4 worth or something), then push our way toward Horseback Riding ASAP.
Mitchum
Deity
Can we use a test game to estimate how much it will cost to get Mansa to DoW? I'd hate to waste breakers in Aesthetics only to find out a DoW would take us researching half of it.
Dhoomstriker
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I can save the real game and pop into a test game to see if I can figure out that info.
Dhoomstriker
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The answer is 1 turn of 20% Science plus overflow Science.
Mitchum
Deity
That's it? That sounds worth it. Maybe run 30% just in case??
Dhoomstriker
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The BUFFY Scoreboard Power value does not seem to be affected by knowing Metal Casting. I gave Mansa Metal Casting when he demanded it in the test game and his Power there did not change.
I then gave him all Classical and Medieval techs in the World Builder and his Power went down, not up.
Thus, I really think that Mansa only has 6 Skirmishers right now.
So, by dragging Mansa into a war with Joao, we are risking:
a) Mansa getting Pillaged
b) Joao being at war for more turns than he might otherwise be if we off-and-on Cease Fire Joao and thus Joao building more units
And we are giving up:
c) Mansa spreading Judaism to us for free, which I'm guestimating to be worth roughly 70 Hammers per Missionary, one of which is almost guaranteed since Joao has Buddhism in all of his Cities and the Missionary is currently on its way
I guess that if neither of us can convince the other, we'll have to wait for a third opinion.
I then gave him all Classical and Medieval techs in the World Builder and his Power went down, not up.
Thus, I really think that Mansa only has 6 Skirmishers right now.
So, by dragging Mansa into a war with Joao, we are risking:
a) Mansa getting Pillaged
b) Joao being at war for more turns than he might otherwise be if we off-and-on Cease Fire Joao and thus Joao building more units
And we are giving up:
c) Mansa spreading Judaism to us for free, which I'm guestimating to be worth roughly 70 Hammers per Missionary, one of which is almost guaranteed since Joao has Buddhism in all of his Cities and the Missionary is currently on its way
I guess that if neither of us can convince the other, we'll have to wait for a third opinion.
Dhoomstriker
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LOOKING FOR AN ANSWER: WAR TARGET
Should we bribe Mansa into war with Joao or Genghis?
War with Joao
Pros:
- We will get an ally in the war against Joao and we do eventually want to take down Joao's Ivory City, plus perhaps another City of Joao's on the war path to capturing Swinger's Pad
- Joao may send some units toward Mansa instead of toward us, especially on turns where we Cease Fire with Joao
- If Mansa builds more Military Units, he's actually reasonably close to Joao, so if he can be "convinced" to attack Joao (we can ask Mansa to attack Joao every turn), Mansa may Pillage a couple of the more northern improved squares of Joao's (although Joao can quickly rebuild Pillaged improvements due to having The Hagia Sophia)
Cons:
- We will prevent Mansa from being able to send us Jewish Missionaries until after we capture Joao's capital, and we don't expect to capture Joao's capital for a long time (probably not until after we capture Swinger's Pad, which will be after we have War Elephants and Cats)
- Mansa seems to have a weak army (only 1 wandering Skirmisher), so Joao could feasibly walk through Mansa's lands and Pillage Mansa's lands, with Mansa not actually Pillaging Joao at all
War with Genghis
Pros:
- We may be able to distract Genghis from "back-dooring" us with an army due to him having a second war target. Joao can't do too much to us since he has to wade through highly-defensible Jungle and then our chokepoint before he can get to our core Cities, but we're vulnerable to even a few-unit mini-stack from Genghis eating up our core Cities, so it would be great to give Genghis an alternate war target so that any army he builds will move back and forth rather than steadily toward us
- We might also be in less danger at Corn City, again with Genghis' units potentially being distracted away, whereas if Genghis comes at Corn City with a stack of 5+ units, we'll probably lose Corn City
- Mansa can keep sending Jewish Missionaries our way. With my rough estimate of them being valued at 70 Hammers, that's like getting 2 free Axemen for every Missionary that comes our way
- Mansa is far from Genghis, so Mansa's lands are very unlikely to be Pillaged by Genghis
Cons:
- Genghis isn't our war target, so we'll eventually need to bribe Joao into war with Mansa at a later date (depending upon how long the war lasts, this point may or may not even matter... if Mansa makes Peace with Genghis like he did before, then we can simply bribe Mansa to attack Joao later on)
- Mansa isn't likely to contribute to Pillaging any of Genghis' lands and is primarily going to act as a way for Genghis' units to be distracted by a different war target for any turn where we have a Cease Fire with Genghis (i.e. Genghis' units will move away from us for any such turns)
Voting Responses to Date
Mitchum votes for bribing Mansa against Joao as he hopes that Mansa will build more Military Units and then will send them to fight with Joao's units and possibly help with some Pillaging.
It would be nice to get some help in taking down Joao's Strategic Resources.
Dhoom votes for bribing Mansa against Genghis as we currently have an insanely-weak "army," consisting of 3 Archers and 4 Warriors. If Genghis sends a mini-stack of 5 or so units either toward Gold City (via the backdoor Railroad... maybe we should have Pillaged it earlier?) or toward Corn City, we're going to lose at least one City and be unable to get Peace or a Cease Fire for a long time.
Dhoom also wants to wait a bit before dragging Mansa into a war with Joao so that Mansa can spread at least 1 more Jewish Missionary in one of our Cities (one Jewish Missionary already on the way and will probably go to Cap, where it can help us to build The Great Library and other Buildings faster, like a Market, since we'll soon have Currency up for trade from Mansa)... once those 2 go to war with each other, they'll be unlikely to Open Borders with each other in the future, meaning no realistic chance of Judaism being spread in our lands unless we divert our precious Hammers to spreading it ourselves.
Can someone else please cast a vote, preferably with a couple of reasons why you are voting a particular way?
Should we bribe Mansa into war with Joao or Genghis?
War with Joao
Pros:
- We will get an ally in the war against Joao and we do eventually want to take down Joao's Ivory City, plus perhaps another City of Joao's on the war path to capturing Swinger's Pad
- Joao may send some units toward Mansa instead of toward us, especially on turns where we Cease Fire with Joao
- If Mansa builds more Military Units, he's actually reasonably close to Joao, so if he can be "convinced" to attack Joao (we can ask Mansa to attack Joao every turn), Mansa may Pillage a couple of the more northern improved squares of Joao's (although Joao can quickly rebuild Pillaged improvements due to having The Hagia Sophia)
Cons:
- We will prevent Mansa from being able to send us Jewish Missionaries until after we capture Joao's capital, and we don't expect to capture Joao's capital for a long time (probably not until after we capture Swinger's Pad, which will be after we have War Elephants and Cats)
- Mansa seems to have a weak army (only 1 wandering Skirmisher), so Joao could feasibly walk through Mansa's lands and Pillage Mansa's lands, with Mansa not actually Pillaging Joao at all
War with Genghis
Pros:
- We may be able to distract Genghis from "back-dooring" us with an army due to him having a second war target. Joao can't do too much to us since he has to wade through highly-defensible Jungle and then our chokepoint before he can get to our core Cities, but we're vulnerable to even a few-unit mini-stack from Genghis eating up our core Cities, so it would be great to give Genghis an alternate war target so that any army he builds will move back and forth rather than steadily toward us
- We might also be in less danger at Corn City, again with Genghis' units potentially being distracted away, whereas if Genghis comes at Corn City with a stack of 5+ units, we'll probably lose Corn City
- Mansa can keep sending Jewish Missionaries our way. With my rough estimate of them being valued at 70 Hammers, that's like getting 2 free Axemen for every Missionary that comes our way
- Mansa is far from Genghis, so Mansa's lands are very unlikely to be Pillaged by Genghis
Cons:
- Genghis isn't our war target, so we'll eventually need to bribe Joao into war with Mansa at a later date (depending upon how long the war lasts, this point may or may not even matter... if Mansa makes Peace with Genghis like he did before, then we can simply bribe Mansa to attack Joao later on)
- Mansa isn't likely to contribute to Pillaging any of Genghis' lands and is primarily going to act as a way for Genghis' units to be distracted by a different war target for any turn where we have a Cease Fire with Genghis (i.e. Genghis' units will move away from us for any such turns)
Voting Responses to Date
Mitchum votes for bribing Mansa against Joao as he hopes that Mansa will build more Military Units and then will send them to fight with Joao's units and possibly help with some Pillaging.
It would be nice to get some help in taking down Joao's Strategic Resources.
Dhoom votes for bribing Mansa against Genghis as we currently have an insanely-weak "army," consisting of 3 Archers and 4 Warriors. If Genghis sends a mini-stack of 5 or so units either toward Gold City (via the backdoor Railroad... maybe we should have Pillaged it earlier?) or toward Corn City, we're going to lose at least one City and be unable to get Peace or a Cease Fire for a long time.
Dhoom also wants to wait a bit before dragging Mansa into a war with Joao so that Mansa can spread at least 1 more Jewish Missionary in one of our Cities (one Jewish Missionary already on the way and will probably go to Cap, where it can help us to build The Great Library and other Buildings faster, like a Market, since we'll soon have Currency up for trade from Mansa)... once those 2 go to war with each other, they'll be unlikely to Open Borders with each other in the future, meaning no realistic chance of Judaism being spread in our lands unless we divert our precious Hammers to spreading it ourselves.
Can someone else please cast a vote, preferably with a couple of reasons why you are voting a particular way?
RagingHordes
Wooden Shoeur
Don't bribe Mansa is my vote.
It's rather useless to bribe him and the War with him will be over before it gets stated. Better pick up diplo points for gifting the tech if that's what we need to do.
It's rather useless to bribe him and the War with him will be over before it gets stated. Better pick up diplo points for gifting the tech if that's what we need to do.
Dhoomstriker
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Well, the primary purpose of dragging Mansa into a war is that he can act as a meat shield to help distract and possibly kill of enemy units. In other words, we could face a smaller stack coming at us or even no units coming at us if the enemy stacks of units move toward us for some turns then move toward Mansa for other turns when we have Cease Fired with the enemy.
With Skirmishers, Mansa's likelihood of losing a City is pretty much zero (while Gandhi is the kind of player who could definitely lose Cities if dragged into a war).
With Skirmishers, Mansa's likelihood of losing a City is pretty much zero (while Gandhi is the kind of player who could definitely lose Cities if dragged into a war).
RagingHordes
Wooden Shoeur
I don't think the AI's are ready to war just now. Give them 20 turns and they will have stacks, yes. But now, you start the war and they will make peace before moving any military around.
That is my opinion at least.
That is my opinion at least.
Dhoomstriker
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I get what you're saying about the AIs not being ready.
But I fear Genghis, so it's almost like saying giving up on stealing Workers from Genghis... which also means allowing him to hook up his Copper Resource.
I really don't want to be the player who hands off the saved game to someone where Genghis happens to show up a stack of units at our backdoor. It might not happen, but the F5 -> MILITARY ADVISOR has said that he's had access to building Chariots for several turns now (it could have been for a while now--I didn't look back at older saved games to check).
It probably wouldn't hurt to dump 1 turn worth of Hammers into a Spearman in Fish City just in case.
But I fear Genghis, so it's almost like saying giving up on stealing Workers from Genghis... which also means allowing him to hook up his Copper Resource.
I really don't want to be the player who hands off the saved game to someone where Genghis happens to show up a stack of units at our backdoor. It might not happen, but the F5 -> MILITARY ADVISOR has said that he's had access to building Chariots for several turns now (it could have been for a while now--I didn't look back at older saved games to check).
It probably wouldn't hurt to dump 1 turn worth of Hammers into a Spearman in Fish City just in case.
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