Civ VII Post-mortem: Crafting a redemption arc

This is my issue as well. I also don't like that it feels arbitrary, and it forces the sort of western colonialist narrative. I also just feel the hard reset mechanically feels worse than fluidity from before. It's not strictly historical as some people make it out to be. Because neither what we had before nor what we have now is describable as historically accurate.

I find absolitly hilarious that people trumpet how progressive it is that Harriet Tubman or Ada Lovelace are leaders, and if you disagree that they should be leaders you are of course racist

In a game that has developer fiat global genocide happen not once but twice, and the very map script is designed to generate faux Caribbean Islands and a distant land for you to plunder, colonize, and dispatch literal treasure fleets laden with plunder from.
 
I'd love to hear more, and I'd love it if you could expand on "stand the test of time" by describing how it makes you feel. What emotional drivers does it represent that keep you playing over and over?

You'll notice I did the same thing with One More Turn, when I defined it as "the anticipation to see what will happen next." That way I could use it as a guidepost in the following analysis.

For the same reason I did not include "interesting decisions" because it felt too generic and hard to pin down. But "stand the test of time" feels like it has real potential if we can unlock what it represents to players.
Ages I suppose are alright but the problem is they interrupt "one more turn". Progress and change has always occurred in little neat packages that happen a turn at a time and it's always one more turn, one more turn, one more turn. I think the interruption factor may be what hurts things the most.

Although, the creation of a template for age cadence (tier one, key technology, tier two, key upgrade) goes even further to disrupt the sense of flowing change.

Clearly there was an intention to make each age function as an independent game. Note that there is huge feature support for just doing exploration or just doing modern. No support for smooth transition between ages as an option.

So, if we think of Civ 7 it's not a Civ-sized game, it's three mini civ games. In terms of quantity, that might equal a full civ game, but you only ever play in the context of this very contrived three tiered progression leading to a hard age end.

I have an extremely apropos analogy for this. Have you ever hit snooze on your alarm, but then hit it over and over again? You end up waking up an hour later, but every 9 minutes of that hour you're woken up briefly, so it's the most wasted hour of sleep you've ever had. At one point in my life I figured out to set 40 minute long "super snooze" alarms. So, if I woke up on a Saturday and wasn't feeling it yet, I didn't hit the snooze bar, I just turned the alarm off and waited for the second alarm. Those 40 minutes of sleep have a quality above and beyond four 9-minute mini-sleeps.

Take this fact of each age of the game falls short of even half of a good civ experience, forcing us to repeat the inadequate experience 3 times, but then you package forced scenarios into these already truncated experiences and then you make half of those scenarios banal almost painful (religion). There's no way for this to be a fun game under those circumstances.

I'd still love to know what they were thinking?
  1. Did they want to streamline play so the game progression was easier to understand for casual players?
  2. Were they hoping a truncated format would support esports?
  3. Did they give up on trying to make a good AI, refusing to hire talented devs and give up salary/bonus for senior devs, thinking just resetting the progress would make AI design simpler?
I don't think they succeeded on any front.

I know it's not realistic, but at a minimum they need to chuck separated ages. Yields shouldn't tier up so rigidly, building functions should be more diverse, obsolescence should occur in stages not all at once.

I get the impression that they wanted to League of Legends-ify Civ. Not in terms of making it competitive multiplayer, but in the sense of a totally balanced sterile foundation where each Civ has these little microbuffs and it's all about collecting them all. Not even sure that concept was successful, but their imagination that people would buy DLC just to add a little tiny bit of fun to an otherwise boring game seems crazy.
 
I'd still love to know what they were thinking?
  1. Did they want to streamline play so the game progression was easier to understand for casual players?
  2. Were they hoping a truncated format would support esports?
  3. Did they give up on trying to make a good AI, refusing to hire talented devs and give up salary/bonus for senior devs, thinking just resetting the progress would make AI design simpler?
I don't think they succeeded on any front.

Whenever you want to know what they were thinking when something doesnt make sense to you, its often due to money

Civ VII model allows the to sell two Great Britain, probably two France, two "Germany", possibly 3 Russia, etc, and all of them cheaper to make because you only need them to survive 1 of the mini games
 
I think it's a bit more complicated than that, though? At least in VI, for me, playing as, say, Egypt FEELS at least somewhat different from playing as France or Japan, though I suppose things like unique individual units and the music might have done some of the heavy lifting there.

My main issue with the Civ switching mechanic has less to do with historical accuracy (indeed, I think it could have been more interesting if it had leaned harder into that realm) and more the fact that it kind of makes a mockery of any kind of in-game narrative continuity. I also don't like how every time the game jumps to a new era it also jumps over (in some cases) hundreds of years. Kind of kills the flow/immersion factor, for me . . .
For me it’s just a slightly different narrative. For instance I would previously play as Rome and play into the modern age. During the medieval period I was imagining Rome more as a standard medieval European civ, maybe France. Easy to do because you have knights and men at arms.

By modern era I’m now watching my Rome civ but am imagining more as a sort of American empire. That is my closest comparison in my head.

Now in Civ 7, it’s just a bit more explicit. That’s why I don’t have an issue with it.
 
In a game that has developer fiat global genocide happen not once but twice
I think the funniest thing about this line you keep repeating is you're describing a completely different game.

You don't lose population.

Your city names do not change.

You keep your borders, and by the new default settings you don't even lose any units.

None of this describes what you're trying to shoehorn the transition mechanics into, with extremely charged language at that.
 
I think it's a bit more complicated than that, though? At least in VI, for me, playing as, say, Egypt FEELS at least somewhat different from playing as France or Japan, though I suppose things like unique individual units and the music might have done some of the heavy lifting there.

My main issue with the Civ switching mechanic has less to do with historical accuracy (indeed, I think it could have been more interesting if it had leaned harder into that realm) and more the fact that it kind of makes a mockery of any kind of in-game narrative continuity. I also don't like how every time the game jumps to a new era it also jumps over (in some cases) hundreds of years. Kind of kills the flow/immersion factor, for me . . .
A lot could have been improved with the Narrative/Flow
-Events around the change
-increasing continuity OR providing choice for regroup (you should choose where all of your units go in your settlements)
-keeping “feel” by keeping building style of old buildings (even if new ones look like the new civ)
-etc
 
A lot could have been improved with the Narrative/Flow
Speaking of this, there's that massive system of narrative events which is only really present for China and Egypt. It might have been cool, but it's so bare bones and what is there is incredibly bland. Yet, the inclusion of the entire system is proof that they wanted each civ to have a rich narrative that interacted with your play. Like, I guess they just ran out of time, and also somehow were unable to figure out how to make it compelling as well? Weird. Everything in 7 is like this.
 
Speaking of this, there's that massive system of narrative events which is only really present for China and Egypt. It might have been cool, but it's so bare bones and what is there is incredibly bland. Yet, the inclusion of the entire system is proof that they wanted each civ to have a rich narrative that interacted with your play. Like, I guess they just ran out of time, and also somehow were unable to figure out how to make it compelling as well? Weird. Everything in 7 is like this.
Those seem to be while you are in the civ… they need some for the transition to each civ…since that is the part most interesting and different about civ 7s new system.
 
I think the funniest thing about this line you keep repeating is you're describing a completely different game.

You don't lose population.

Your city names do not change.

You keep your borders, and by the new default settings you don't even lose any units.

None of this describes what you're trying to shoehorn the transition mechanics into, with extremely charged language at that.

This nonsense again? Socratic literally just refuted this, for probably the hundredth time in the other thread

socratic said:
Civ switching is a bit more than just a name change. You lose your ability, cant build anymore of your uniques, gain new uniques, new traditions, a new ability, etc. If someone wanted to play Aztecs or any other pre-columbian civ the whole game, they can’t. The Aztecs did not just wake up, stop building teocalli, and start building Cathedrals. The civ switch doesn’t just imply a change, it beats you over the head saying “YOU GOT COLONIZED”
 
This nonsense again? Socratic literally just refuted this, for probably the hundredth time in the other thread

socratic said:
Civ switching is a bit more than just a name change. You lose your ability, cant build anymore of your uniques, gain new uniques, new traditions, a new ability, etc. If someone wanted to play Aztecs or any other pre-columbian civ the whole game, they can’t. The Aztecs did not just wake up, stop building teocalli, and start building Cathedrals. The civ switch doesn’t just imply a change, it beats you over the head saying “YOU GOT COLONIZED”
"over hundreds of years an empire changed" (whilst surviving a Crisis if you have it enabled) is not what you're trying to paint it as. The Roman Empire wasn't colonised. It was worn down by effectively, repeated crises, many of which weren't handled well.

Trying to shoehorn your own politics into a game because you don't like the game in question is, imo, questionable ethics at best. And a pretty off-topic tangent to entertain in any real depth. You're welcome to disagree, but I don't believe this accusation is being levelled in good faith, in any way shape or form.

In pure historical terms, many empires fell (some quickly, some slowly). In VII you actually have a significant chance to survive the fall of any historical empire, whilst evolving with the changing times (as things like trade and whatnot historically did).

You're not going to get a perfect realisation of non-colonising history in a game for which war is a large component of. Game mechanics demand abstraction.

Complaining about alleged genocide in a game that lets you launch nukes feels very selective.
 
"over hundreds of years an empire changed" (whilst surviving a Crisis if you have it enabled) is not what you're trying to paint it as. The Roman Empire wasn't colonised. It was worn down by effectively, repeated crises, many of which weren't handled well.

Trying to shoehorn your own politics into a game because you don't like the game in question is, imo, questionable ethics at best. And a pretty off-topic tangent to entertain in any real depth. You're welcome to disagree, but I don't believe this accusation is being levelled in good faith, in any way shape or form.

In pure historical terms, many empires fell (some quickly, some slowly). In VII you actually have a significant chance to survive the fall of any historical empire, whilst evolving with the changing times (as things like trade and whatnot historically did).

You're not going to get a perfect realisation of non-colonising history in a game for which war is a large component of. Game mechanics demand abstraction.

Complaining about alleged genocide in a game that lets you launch nukes feels very selective.

In previous civ titles you actually got to play out those events and crises amd engage with them, you know, Building An Empire To Stand The Test Of Time.

The thing that made this a succesfull franchise for decades.

As opposed to having your empire automatically fail, by developer fiat, regardless of what you do

Twice.

Apparently now all we can do is Build An Empire To Fail The Test Of Time.

Maybe, just maybe that’s why the sales are where they are, the playercount is where it is, and half of the fraction of the playerbase that tried it dislikes it.

A genocide that you can decide how to respond to is not the same as one that makes you feel powerless because the developers imposed it.

Exactly.
 
I've been saying it since well before release, but it's very obvious that Civ VII was made with DLC in mind instead of fun or being a good game. Why is it symmetrically balanced? Because it's a lot easier and faster to churn out civilizations if you do that thanks to the ease of balancing to a model. Why is there civ switching? Because you don't have to worry about things like "is this midgame power bump strong enough to overcome the feels bad of having nothing special in the early game" if there is no early/mid/late game to worry about for a civ. Why are you switching civilizations instead of leaders despite the latter clearly making more narrative and historical sense*? Because civilizations are a palette swap but leaders require new models.

You indirectly touched on this, but Civ VII is also a pretty good case study into why this "new school" of game development where you do "data driven balancing" and strongly listen to your fanbase despite your fanbase being lazy and knowing nothing about game development/balance makes terrible games. Gates of All nations is nerfed because the data says people build it a bunch while ignoring that there are other ways to make people build it less besides nerfing and that an equally likely reason it's built a lot is because the game makes you build a bunch of wonders in that age so players are going to build whatever the AI doesn't prioritize regardless of how good it is. Similarly, the second you make it clear to your playerbase that balance changes will be coming regularly, they stop trying to innovate and instead move to whining on social media. Sure, Street Fighter 4 had major meta changes several years after mainstream tournament support stopped to the point that every tier list you can find on the internet is stone cold wrong, but sure, clearly Gate of All Nations is overpowered. As for the listening to your fanbase part, basically everything people point to as disliking about age changes you can point to a large portion of the fanbase begging for. People told you they wanted civs to have something strong in every part of the game. People told you they wanted to have more exploration. People told you they wanted games to not snowball (which itself just an AI problem, but that's another story). Firaxis delievered a mechanic that does all of that, and it's panned for reasons you went into. It being panned was predictable for the reasons you went into, but they still did it.

I also strongly disagree with AI being "fiendishly difficult". The series has simply not invested into it at all since Civ IV. That's why the AI has been bad and why Civ IV is the last game that was actually challenging to somebody who has played strategy games before. I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's easy to make a good 4X AI, but basically everyone I can think of has a fanmod that creates a competent AI that doesn't resort to cheese. If fans not even in the industry can pull it off, there's no reason why Principal developers should be unable to. Of course this is a rhetorical question and I know the real reason why it's so consistently bad is because AI is necessarily the last core mechanic you finish in a strategy game, so the minimum viable product always prevails. While there will always be the purists who will accept nothing short of "elo adjusted" stockfish, I don't think most people actually have problems with, say, Civ IV giving the AI supremely cheap unit upgrades and a tech bonus to make up for the fact that it's coded to stop research and upgrade the entire army every military tech researched in order to prevent timing cheeses where you roll over the ridiculously ahead AI that can build cavalry with knights because their cities are still defended by archers.

*I'm sure people will take offense to that, but plenty of civilizations have not meaningfully fallen, and of the ones who did, it was usually because of things already modeled by the game. AKA they got conquered and their conquerors had more in common with the Assyrians than the Romans.
It's worth pointing out that this only started with Civ 5. Civ 1-2 didn't have unique civ strengths and weaknesses. 3-4 only had generic traits and UUs. The asymmetrical balance was still there in 1-4 through things like wonders though. I think that's important though because in Civ 2, you'd feel like you just broke the game if you built Leonardo's Workshop. In Civ 6 these types of moments come when your civ has its dominant era. In Civ 7, when is that moment?
Civ 3 had trait unique starting techs and Civ 4 made it civ specific starting techs. This radically changed the game in practice and is absolutely meaningful asymmetric design.
It really feels like the devs don't want players to play with history...
What's especially frustrating is that we know Firaxis knows this because they made sure that China-China-China was possible to appease the Chinese market, but the rest of us? Nah, you'll get the slop and you'll like it.
Do you believe that there should be any limit to how many units should be able to occupy a tile?
Why should there be? Normandy is the only battle in history I'm aware of where not having enough space to put all your equipment and men in was a real consideration, and while I'm personally pretty over litigating 1UPT with the new age civ players (especially because stacking is never coming back and even Soren Johnson has seemingly abandoned it), supporting it causes a lot of strategy and tactical problems. Because like they said, the system marries strategy and tactics which are at odds with each other. Like Old World doesn't allow free settlement because they wanted 1UPT combat to feel better than civ, and that was a necessary cut to do it.

Civ 5-7 were made by the TLDR generation for the TLDR generation. That's the problem and it's a shame.
I'm young enough to be in that generation, and that's a good way to put it. In the grand scheme of things this is minor, but in Civ 7 the leaders in the open scream cough, grunt, and generally make noises at you to hurry up and play if you try to read the leader and civ bonuses before you start the game. Apparently you're supposed to just blindly click things in civ games now. Thinking about your macrostrategy early on is not allowed. It really is depressing to think how far the series has fallen on this front. Civ VI still had enough meat on the bone that I enjoyed it, but it was very much so, to use this post's nomenclature, confusing wide complexity with depth. Civ VI was a much less deep game than 2, 3, 4, and SMAC. Civ V and VII aren't deep at all.
There were plenty of issues with the combat in Civ 4, or another way to put it is -there was a lot of room for improvement of the systems for the next iteration. But that would have been work and might have required some creativity.

The designers have developed their excuses. Players don't really want a good AI. It is impossible to create a good AI. Players don't want micromanagement. Etcetera. None of it is really true. These are just excuses to avoid work. Slap a coat of paint on it (graphics and some voice acting) and call it soup. Or slop really and the public just laps it up. Well, the jig seems to be up.
I would argue there were only three real problems with Civ 4 combat.

1. It was too complex for the median player to understand which has somehow managed to domino its way to doing a ton of damage to the genre as a whole.

2. More care needed to be made to smooth out the combat result distributions. As it stands there are really weird breakpoints that resulted in three.

3. Unit balance was really poor. You were usually only not using mounted units because you didn't have horses or needed to use draft to get an army online in time between them being so generically strong numbers wise AND having huge tactical edge further exacerbating that numbers edge. Some counter units like spearmen and pikemen didn't actually function as counter units because of this generally poor balance/two. Elephants are as strong as units an era above them for confusing reasons.
So, if we think of Civ 7 it's not a Civ-sized game, it's three mini civ games. In terms of quantity, that might equal a full civ game, but you only ever play in the context of this very contrived three tiered progression leading to a hard age end.
Maybe it'd be different if I didn't bounce off so fast, but I don't agree with this at all. I could play 6-7 civ IV games in the time it took me to do my first Civ 7 game. The game is really, really long. It's just not very good, the decisions are uninteresting, and the UI makes it actively hard to play.
 
Speaking of this, there's that massive system of narrative events which is only really present for China and Egypt. It might have been cool, but it's so bare bones and what is there is incredibly bland. Yet, the inclusion of the entire system is proof that they wanted each civ to have a rich narrative that interacted with your play. Like, I guess they just ran out of time, and also somehow were unable to figure out how to make it compelling as well? Weird. Everything in 7 is like this.
Not sure what massive system this should be. The narrative events that come with unique graphics? If so, these exist for much more civs and leaders than Egypt and „China“. All civs and leaders have unique events btw (leaders have 2 or more per age). Some also have events that require specific opponents, e.g., Carthage and Rome.
 
A genocide that you can decide how to respond to is not the same as one that makes you feel powerless because the developers imposed it.
An alleged genocide being used because the word genocide carries import as an implied criticism of the developers isn't convincing given that the developers also gave players nukes (and I'm only scratching the surface of mechanics, here).

It's a moral gotcha. It's not consistently applied. There are many things that the game incentivises if not outright mandates. Where is this argument when it comes to assimilating City States? It hasn't been brought up once, that I can recall.

In previous civ titles you actually got to play out those events and crises amd engage with them, you know, Building An Empire To Stand The Test Of Time.

The thing that made this a succesfull franchise for decades.

As opposed to having your empire automatically fail, by developer fiat, regardless of what you do

Twice.

Apparently now all we can do is Build An Empire To Fail The Test Of Time.

Maybe, just maybe that’s why the sales are where they are, the playercount is where it is, and half of the fraction of the playerbase that tried it dislikes it.
Repeating the same opinions don't make them true.

Succeeding at an Age transition is not a failure. You perceive it as such because you view adopting a new layer of culture over the top as a negative (irrespective of any nuance or actual ingame outcome).

And you can. Anyone can. I'm not arguing the game's current popularity (you're a fan of calling out fallacies - we call this one moving the goalposts).

You can want to play out the period of time between the Crisis (which you do actually play out) and the start of the next Age. That's a valid desire. But it's not automatically correct. You're still working backwards from "game unpopular" to "what I want is popular".

A lot of people would agree that they want the game to change in order for it to do better. As I've said many, many times before - we disagree on what should change. Shouldn't we be allowed to?
 
You can want to play out the period of time between the Crisis (which you do actually play out) and the start of the next Age. That's a valid desire.
Don't tell me those 10 turns from Age A to Age B are supposed to represent that hidden in-between period whereby your entire culture and language morphs for no ascertainable reason?
I thought that was only a grace period for you to work with, not genuinely supposed to represent that period of time.

That being said. Developers. Maybe that's a good idea. Take those 10 turns and use them to transmogrify the first empire into the second empire. Let me see it with my own two eyes. At least if this resolves nothing, it would be fun to watch 😅
 
Don't tell me those 10 turns from Age A to Age B are supposed to represent that hidden in-between period whereby your entire culture and language morphs for no ascertainable reason?
I'm not saying that, no.

You play the Crisis itself, though (assuming you have it turned on, which is a separate problem for the developers in terms of making it engaging). You don't play the actual transition beyond the modelling / selecting of benefits a successful transition awards you.

The complaint (well, one of them) was that this transition isn't played out.
 
I'm not saying that, no.

You play the Crisis itself, though (assuming you have it turned on, which is a separate problem for the developers in terms of making it engaging). You don't play the actual transition beyond the modelling / selecting of benefits a successful transition awards you.

The complaint (well, one of them) was that this transition isn't played out.

That’s because it isn’t, which has been demonstrated to you aud nauseum at this point

That’s not an opinion, it’s objective fact. There is a loading screen and poof units teleport, change, are removed etc
 
I'm not saying that, no.

You play the Crisis itself, though (assuming you have it turned on, which is a separate problem for the developers in terms of making it engaging). You don't play the actual transition beyond the modelling / selecting of benefits a successful transition awards you.

The complaint (well, one of them) was that this transition isn't played out.
That’s where I think narrative events in one age where the reward is progress on your civics for a particular civ you could adopt next age.
(the “transition” can start happening in the first few turns of the previous age)
 
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