SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
But certain aspects of your generosity were not apparent back then.
I suppose I could hope for similar generosity with metals, but that might be pushing things too far.
I could tell you about all the Aluminum, but that would be spoilerish.But certain aspects of your generosity were not apparent back then.
I suppose I could hope for similar generosity with metals, but that might be pushing things too far.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Do you mean aluminum in the game, or all the aluminum beer cans piled around your computer?
dV
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
In my test, working the free-range cow for fastest growth, gets to T19 which I think was pop 2, warrior was 2 turns to go if working 2f 2h or 1 turn if working 3h tile, if memory is correct. Or if it is not, I think warrior finished very fast after pop 2.
I presume the point is to get settler started as soon as possible, not to get both to complete on same turn per se. I'll look closer after work.
dV
adrianj
Deity
When you say "timing the completion of the warrior to city growth" does this imply slowing growth? Or reducing 
'overflow' to get the warrior out while growing on the same turn anyway? If we're only talking about 1 or 2 /
then we could just complete the warrior while at size 2, generating overflow into the settler thereby having settler built on the same expected turn anyway.
The real goal is settling city #2. Are we limited by a) time to produce the settler, or b) roaming barbarians requiring us to produce an extra escort?
What is the actual situation inside the city?
Also, will that warrior start costing us in maintenance?
In other news... Horse Archer Rush?
'overflow' to get the warrior out while growing on the same turn anyway? If we're only talking about 1 or 2 / then we could just complete the warrior while at size 2, generating overflow into the settler thereby having settler built on the same expected turn anyway.The real goal is settling city #2. Are we limited by a) time to produce the settler, or b) roaming barbarians requiring us to produce an extra escort?
What is the actual situation inside the city?
Also, will that warrior start costing us in maintenance?
In other news... Horse Archer Rush?
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
I agree with adrianj -- the real goal is city #2 (and then city #3, #4, etc.). If we can finish the warrior the same turn we grow to size 2 by trading 1 or 2 food for 2 or 1 hammers, then that is likely worthwhile. But I would not delay growth to size 2 just to complete the warrior -- put in a turn at size 2 if necessary to finish it.
Good question about unit maintenance. We definitely have more units than normal for this point in the game.
HA rush...just how rapidly do we need to rush to make such a thing work? I am not much of an early rusher, especially with HAs. Guess I need to go read that guide you linked....
Good question about unit maintenance. We definitely have more units than normal for this point in the game.
HA rush...just how rapidly do we need to rush to make such a thing work? I am not much of an early rusher, especially with HAs. Guess I need to go read that guide you linked....
I fancy the HA rush. And fancy settling towards the NE, to potentially claim more territory. If Sul settles wheat, fine. He's our best first target anyway. 
Besides, cow is a higher yield tile than wheat and takes a turn less to improve... That said, if we can claim both sites all the better, but I feel less bothered about losing wheat than getting boxed in quickly up north.
Besides, cow is a higher yield tile than wheat and takes a turn less to improve... That said, if we can claim both sites all the better, but I feel less bothered about losing wheat than getting boxed in quickly up north.
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Where would you put a city to the NE, nocho? I like the southern option because it has two strong tiles in the first ring. Since we do not have any way to pop borders for a while, any site with only one good first ring tile is going to be kind of weak for our second city.
adrianj
Deity
I can think of two possible NE city sites that claim horses. Continuing with my numbering scheme from an earlier post: (3a) is 1N of the plains cow, 4NE of the capital. (3b) is 1NE of the plains cow, 4NE1E of the capital.
(3a) has horses+cows in first ring, as well as 3 forests to chop. In the future it will also have access to an extra horse resource and crabs. 'The future' does not help with a HA rush.
(3b) also has horses+cows in first ring, but only 2 forests to chop. It will also eventually have access to the marble in addition to extra horse+crabs. It is 1 more tile distant from the capital, which might be a minor issue. Working the unimproved crab could be an option for faster growth and slightly more commerce (ie, teching to HBR).
Both cities could work horse+cow+plains mine @ size 3 for 0,12,2
. It won't really improve until more food comes online through the crabs.
(I'm working on the assumption that a pastured horse adds +3,1, hence plains horse = 1,4,1)
Southern city, on the city ruins I had numbered (2). In first ring it has horses+wheat+grassland mine. 0 forests. Working unimproved fish is an option for growth+commerce.
Working wheat+horse+grassmine @ size 3 it has +5,7,4.
If we build granary here (half price, we are EXP) then we can whip from size 5-3 to convert that food excess into 60 every 10 turns, ie, an extra 6/turn.
Faster growth also gives us the option to expand onto some cottages.
This city is also immediately connected for trade by the road already in place.
We shouldn't neglect our economy, teching to HBR is a non-trivial part of the HA rush. Some guides suggest: writing > library > scientist specialists, especially if CRE or PHI. We are neither, so we might instead choose: pottery > cottages, which also ties in with our EXP bonus for cheap granaries and cheaper workers to build the cottages.
Of the sites (2), (3a) and (3b), I think we should aim to settle (2) ASAP since it should contribute well to the tech-to-HBR phase. Settle (3b) as our 3rd city soon after, and with some forest chops it will be ready (barracks+stables) quite quickly.
Tech Path
The HA rush is pretty minimalistic. Essential are obviously HBR (406), Hunting (65) and Archery (97). I suggest Pottery for an economic tech (130, both optional prereqs), Mining (81) and BW (195) for chopping, whipping and sight of copper so we can cut it off from the AI.
Mining > BW > Pottery > HBR > Hunting > Archery?
(3a) has horses+cows in first ring, as well as 3 forests to chop. In the future it will also have access to an extra horse resource and crabs. 'The future' does not help with a HA rush.
(3b) also has horses+cows in first ring, but only 2 forests to chop. It will also eventually have access to the marble in addition to extra horse+crabs. It is 1 more tile distant from the capital, which might be a minor issue. Working the unimproved crab could be an option for faster growth and slightly more commerce (ie, teching to HBR).
Both cities could work horse+cow+plains mine @ size 3 for 0
,12,2. It won't really improve until more food comes online through the crabs.(I'm working on the assumption that a pastured horse adds +3
,1, hence plains horse = 1,4,1)Southern city, on the city ruins I had numbered (2). In first ring it has horses+wheat+grassland mine. 0 forests. Working unimproved fish is an option for growth+commerce.
Working wheat+horse+grassmine @ size 3 it has +5
,7,4.If we build granary here (half price, we are EXP) then we can whip from size 5-3 to convert that food excess into 60
every 10 turns, ie, an extra 6/turn.Faster growth also gives us the option to expand onto some cottages.
This city is also immediately connected for trade by the road already in place.
We shouldn't neglect our economy, teching to HBR is a non-trivial part of the HA rush. Some guides suggest: writing > library > scientist specialists, especially if CRE or PHI. We are neither, so we might instead choose: pottery > cottages, which also ties in with our EXP bonus for cheap granaries and cheaper workers to build the cottages.
Of the sites (2), (3a) and (3b), I think we should aim to settle (2) ASAP since it should contribute well to the tech-to-HBR phase. Settle (3b) as our 3rd city soon after, and with some forest chops it will be ready (barracks+stables) quite quickly.
Tech Path
The HA rush is pretty minimalistic. Essential are obviously HBR (406), Hunting (65) and Archery (97). I suggest Pottery for an economic tech (130, both optional prereqs), Mining (81) and BW (195) for chopping, whipping and sight of copper so we can cut it off from the AI.
Mining > BW > Pottery > HBR > Hunting > Archery?
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Ran the production in the test game ... size 2 at T19, warrior is 9/15, done on T20 by working improved cow 2h, city tile 1h, and forest hill 3h. I don't see any faster way to this. Settler starts on T20 and takes 12 turns, maybe less if worker pastures hill sheep next.
On maint, I tried to get screenshots of money screen, but screenshot window killed the unit support detail window.
With two warriors (one just produced), it said no added maint, it said 2 free military units and two on the board. I removed the just made warrior, it said only one unit on the board (this in the test game). It appears that the worldbuilder units don't count in the maintenance (only explanation I can see for archer and scout not seeming to matter). I will also give this a look in the real game.
I might need to play to pasture completion, then hand off to next player. I have 18 term papers (summer course I teach) to grade starting Friday with grades due in just 3 days. At about 2 hours each, its a marathon weekend.
Any outstanding issues before we can play to the pasture?
dV
On maint, I tried to get screenshots of money screen, but screenshot window killed the unit support detail window.
With two warriors (one just produced), it said no added maint, it said 2 free military units and two on the board. I removed the just made warrior, it said only one unit on the board (this in the test game). It appears that the worldbuilder units don't count in the maintenance (only explanation I can see for archer and scout not seeming to matter). I will also give this a look in the real game.
I might need to play to pasture completion, then hand off to next player. I have 18 term papers (summer course I teach) to grade starting Friday with grades due in just 3 days. At about 2 hours each, its a marathon weekend.
Any outstanding issues before we can play to the pasture?
dV
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Ouch! Good luck with the grading, dV. Back when I was a regular student, I did not appreciate how much my teachers did "behind the scenes."
Proceed to the pasture is OK with me.
^ Proceeding is fine with me too.
I agree with aj's tech path for now, but of course we should reconsider depending on how the AI settles and the bronze situation. Besides the reasons you mentioned BW is also essential for getting silver online.
After the first settler at size 2, do we immediately go for another one? I think we might have to.
I agree with aj's tech path for now, but of course we should reconsider depending on how the AI settles and the bronze situation. Besides the reasons you mentioned BW is also essential for getting silver online.
After the first settler at size 2, do we immediately go for another one? I think we might have to.
Proceeding fine with me as well..
tech path hunt/arch before hbr though. that way we can build archers if necessary plus if we have the phants we can camp them.
Doing a fast hbr rush how many cities do we want? To many and will delay hbr?
Ronnie1
Deity
I know I am against the consensus, but I would work the sheep/hill/forest and time the warrior to growth at T20 and start the settler then. My reasoning is simple, I think we could benefit from another warrior immediately. I want to explore near the deer site SW of SL. Having another warrior now only costs us 1 turn in settling city 2. If we miss our target site by a turn, I'll take the blame.
Only if we settle south. If we settle N 1st, I would leave Archery until after HBR.
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
So it sounds like if we go for the HA rush we are passing on any attempt at the Oracle. Teching the religious path would delay HBR for quite a few turns, and presumably the "rush" aspect would be lacking. Are we prepared to commit to this path?
If I understand the concept correctly, we would want HBR before Hunting -> Archery so that we have time to build stables while finishing those techs. This gives us double-promoted HAs, significantly improving survival rates among our HAs as we attack. A mix of flanking II to hopefully get some withdrawals, plus the ability to create some Combat I/Shock HAs for dealing with spears and axes if we can not cut off the target's metals.
Of course to get those double-promoted HAs we also need to find time/hammers to build barracks. Going without barracks and stables would mean more HAs but non-promoted, leading to more losses in combat. Assuming a city will produce at least 4+ HAs then I think the buildings make sense. And with as many close enemies as we have, I think we will easily build that many HAs per city and probably quite a few more.
If the AIs do not have any religion (and hopefully it will not spread to them from barb cities) then they will have less culture defenses, which would be helpful to a rush strategy.
Just trying to think through some of our options. I am a bit worried about not getting the Oracle, but we are hardly guaranteed to get it even if we do go for it. And it is hard to get the marble online in time to help, even if we do manage to beat the AIs to the site.
In any case, I think our immediate future is clear enough. We need to pasture the cows, work on Mining -> BW, grow while building a warrior, etc. So we have more time to think about things.
If I understand the concept correctly, we would want HBR before Hunting -> Archery so that we have time to build stables while finishing those techs. This gives us double-promoted HAs, significantly improving survival rates among our HAs as we attack. A mix of flanking II to hopefully get some withdrawals, plus the ability to create some Combat I/Shock HAs for dealing with spears and axes if we can not cut off the target's metals.
Of course to get those double-promoted HAs we also need to find time/hammers to build barracks. Going without barracks and stables would mean more HAs but non-promoted, leading to more losses in combat. Assuming a city will produce at least 4+ HAs then I think the buildings make sense. And with as many close enemies as we have, I think we will easily build that many HAs per city and probably quite a few more.
If the AIs do not have any religion (and hopefully it will not spread to them from barb cities) then they will have less culture defenses, which would be helpful to a rush strategy.
Just trying to think through some of our options. I am a bit worried about not getting the Oracle, but we are hardly guaranteed to get it even if we do go for it. And it is hard to get the marble online in time to help, even if we do manage to beat the AIs to the site.
In any case, I think our immediate future is clear enough. We need to pasture the cows, work on Mining -> BW, grow while building a warrior, etc. So we have more time to think about things.
From what I can see I am actually quite fine with the HA rush as well. In that case, a city 6N1E seems like the best settling spot for our second city. It would serve as a great buffer zone to attack Peter from. Mysticism should be prioritized (maybe right after BW).
Since we are not rushing the Oracle, I would grow to at least size 3 or 4, which means we are able to work more improved special tiles, besides cows and sheep. Some military presence (= warriors) would be useful too.
Since we are not rushing the Oracle, I would grow to at least size 3 or 4, which means we are able to work more improved special tiles, besides cows and sheep. Some military presence (= warriors) would be useful too.
adrianj
Deity
If worker isn't pasturing sheep hill next, what is it doing? Building road to next city site? If that is the case, then I strongly suggest we be clear where next city site will be. If it is the SE then I don't think we even need more roads.
Is deciding on worker actions an outstanding issue?
adrianj
Deity
City #2 Location
The only reason this might be important to know now is if the worker needs to start building roads. If the worker isn't building roads anyway, then we can delay the decision a little longer. My preference for the worker would be to improve the hill sheep of the capital.
A quick poll of expressed opinions on city #2 so far:
NE: Ororo (post #237), nocho (post #228)
SE: adrianJ (post #230), haphazard1 (post #229)
Unclear: Sleepless (post #218 suggests NE but different location), Ronnie1 (consider deer site), daVinci, McArine.
The only reason this might be important to know now is if the worker needs to start building roads. If the worker isn't building roads anyway, then we can delay the decision a little longer. My preference for the worker would be to improve the hill sheep of the capital.
A quick poll of expressed opinions on city #2 so far:
NE: Ororo (post #237), nocho (post #228)
SE: adrianJ (post #230), haphazard1 (post #229)
Unclear: Sleepless (post #218 suggests NE but different location), Ronnie1 (consider deer site), daVinci, McArine.
After pasturing cow there really is no serious alternative to pasturing sheep, is there?? The roading direction is for after that, right? Also, where would the new warrior go? Or is dV playing upto warrior completion/cow pasture?
