SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[nocho]

Just saw the actual save. Minor thing, but I notice the scout is unmoved, is there a specific reason for that? I assume he can just march on now, right?

It looks like we could mine a grass hill after cow and sheep pastures, I think mining will be just done then. Question is whether that's really useful in case we would stay at size 2 for a while.

 

[adrianj]

After pasturing cow there really is no serious alternative to pasturing sheep, is there?? The roading direction is for after that, right? Also, where would the new warrior go? Or is dV playing upto warrior completion/cow pasture?

It was this that had me confused:

...
Settler starts on T20 and takes 12 turns, maybe less if worker pastures hill sheep next.

I agree that pasturing the sheep is the next job to do.

dV - could you clarify?

 

[haphazard1]

I also think that pasturing the (non-forested) sheep is the best use of the worker after the cow pasture is completed. Building roads is much less valuable than improving a second strong tile for the capital, and can be done later. Possibly much later, as we probably want more improved tiles at the capital rather than a road to our second city (assuming we settle somewhere needing roads).

What is our tech path after Mining -> BW? (I think we can agree on those two, since we need to be able to build mines and to chop forests. And copper visibility will also be crucial, not to mention slavery.) Mysticism would let us build monuments to pop borders, plus opens the religious path for the Oracle. Pottery would let us build cheap expansive granaries, plus place cottages to help support our economy.

We have several possible paths forward, and need to decide which to pursue.

1) Horse archer rush - Focus on military infra (barracks plus stables) followed by pumping units. Speed of researching HBR is key limiter. Second city primary goal is to obtain horses.

2) Axe rush - Focus on military infra (barracks) followed by pumping units. Possible non-availability of metal is key concern. Second (or more likely third) city primary goal is to obtain copper.

3) Clear triremes obtain seafood - Focus on building the Oracle to take MC for triremes, clear our local waters so we can use the 7 seafood sources we can already see. Use that food to whip military and/or run scientists to power research. Build multiple tightly-packed cities working seafood, and deal with our neighbors later.

4) Other?

5) Some combination of above.

Note that paths 1 and 2 looks pretty much identical through finishing BW, and could be combined to have some axes along with the horse archers if we happen to have metal. Path 3 would be significantly divergent from paths 1 and 2, and would certainly delay any military action due to the need to research Mysticism + Medi/Poly + Priesthood before proceeding with any military techs.

Do we feel confident that we want to rush our neighbors, instead of going for the Oracle? Could we possibly do both? (Oracling HBR seems...odd, but would the timing work out for an HA rush?)

 

[da_Vinci]

I know I am against the consensus, but I would work the sheep/hill/forest and time the warrior to growth at T20 and start the settler then. My reasoning is simple, I think we could benefit from another warrior immediately. I want to explore near the deer site SW of SL. Having another warrior now only costs us 1 turn in settling city 2. If we miss our target site by a turn, I'll take the blame.

R1, are you saying you'd like to build two warriors before the settler? My sim is size 2 at turn 19, warrior at T20, start a settler that takes 12 turns (might be less if pastured sheep comes on line soon enough, have not simmed that however.

Why would size 2 and warrior both at T20 be better? What am I missing?

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

It was this that had me confused:

I agree that pasturing the sheep is the next job to do.

dV - could you clarify?

The worker completes the cow pasture first for sure. After that, the question is whether worker improves capital, or do we need to road NE for marble. As aj has said, that depends on our city 2 decision. But playing to cow pasture completion (or maybe to pasture and road on cow, it has on turn in road already) is definite.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Just saw the actual save. Minor thing, but I notice the scout is unmoved, is there a specific reason for that? I assume he can just march on now, right?

I have moved scout in a NE NW W hook to try to get around the bear and head back to home. I was waiting to get the warrior over to see if way is clear, but might want to keep warrior fogbusting near the worker so he doesn't have to retreat.

I can move him W on hill forests and hope not to meet the bear, we'd be 3 vs 2.75 if attacked.

dV

 

[adrianj]

The worker completes the cow pasture first for sure. After that, the question is whether worker improves capital, or do we need to road NE for marble. As aj has said, that depends on our city 2 decision. But playing to cow pasture completion (or maybe to pasture and road on cow, it has on turn in road already) is definite.

dV

It doesn't "really" depend on location of city #2 if we consider sheep pasture to be a higher priority than the road. Regardless of where city #2 ends up, the worker's next task us to pasture the sheep.

(To be clear, we are talking about the unforested sheep. The forested one cannot be improved until we have knowledge of BW... at least I assume that is the case?)

Completing the cow-road will not speed the worker movement to get to the Sheep - it will take two turns regardless. I guess it does allow for a part-built road 1S of the city. It could also save us a turn later on as either the worker comes back or the settler heads out.

I would be curious if the 1 turn difference in completing the sheep pasture makes a 1 turn difference to producing the settler. If no, then I guess complete the cow-road. If yes, then having cow-road in place is not worth the delay. IMO.

 

[da_Vinci]

I looked in the real game, the warrior will not add to maint there either.

I think I see R1's point about working sheep forest hill for two turns. Doing that we get 2f 2h instead of 3f on unimproved cow. The result is that when we get to T20 we have size 2 and a warrior AND 1 hammer overflow that we don't have my way ... and that makes the settler build 11 turns and not 12.

Although that was not the argument that R1 was making for his approach, or at least that isn't what I thought he was saying.

I will recheck that this works in the sim, and be sure the counts there line up with the real game where we are currently.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

It doesn't "really" depend on location of city #2 if we consider sheep pasture to be a higher priority than the road. Regardless of where city #2 ends up, the worker's next task us to pasture the sheep.

(To be clear, we are talking about the unforested sheep. The forested one cannot be improved until we have knowledge of BW... at least I assume that is the case?)

Completing the cow-road will not speed the worker movement to get to the Sheep - it will take two turns regardless. I guess it does allow for a part-built road 1S of the city. It could also save us a turn later on as either the worker comes back or the settler heads out.

I would be curious if the 1 turn difference in completing the sheep pasture makes a 1 turn difference to producing the settler. If no, then I guess complete the cow-road. If yes, then having cow-road in place is not worth the delay. IMO.

Yes, un-forested sheep is the target tile for worker.

If cow road doesn't change worker arrival on the sheep, then I don't see how impact of sheep pasture on settler matters to putting last turn into cow road. Although we might do or not do something else with worker based on that point.

dV

 

[adrianj]

I think I see R1's point about working sheep forest hill for two turns. Doing that we get 2f 2h instead of 3f on unimproved cow. The result is that when we get to T20 we have size 2 and a warrior AND 1 hammer overflow that we don't have my way ... and that makes the settler build 11 turns and not 12.

Brilliant! The system works!

If cow road doesn't change worker arrival on the sheep, then I don't see how impact of sheep pasture on settler matters

Cow-road + move to Sheep = 3 turns. Move to sheep = 2 turns. One of these paths builds the sheep pasture 1 turn earlier. I'm curious if that 1 turn makes a material difference to when the settler is born. I am guessing the answer is no, and the settler will take 11 turns regardless.

Incidentally, in the screenshot you have the worker moving over the silver to get to the sheep. While we're looking at micromanagement detail, I'll point out that if the worker takes a more southerly route you could put a part-built road on the tile south of the city. This option is only available if cow-road is complete.

 

[Ronnie1]

R1, are you saying you'd like to build two warriors before the settler? My sim is size 2 at turn 19, warrior at T20, start a settler that takes 12 turns (might be less if pastured sheep comes on line soon enough, have not simmed that however.

I did not think the warrior was complete until T21 if only working the unpastured cow the whole time. If we can start the settler T20 and have a warrior to help explore/bust fog then I am fine. If we gain an extra hammer, it backs my theory of trying to work the highest yield tile at all times.

I can move him W on hill forests and hope not to meet the bear, we'd be 3 vs 2.75 if attacked.

I would move him towards the AI border 1 tile per turn so you can retreat if necessary.

 

[Ronnie1]

I just re-tested a bit.

Working the cow(3F) the whole time before the pasture is complete vs working the forest/sheep/hill(2F2H) is slower by a turn to complete the warrior in my tests.

We have to work the 2F2H tile for 2 turns before the pasture is complete, and the pasture when it is available obviously. This allows starting the settler build T20.

If we work the cow the whole time we grow 1 turn sooner (T19), but the warrior is 1 turn slower (T21) so the settler starts a turn later also.

Test results attached

 

[da_Vinci]

I did not think the warrior was complete until T21 if only working the unpastured cow the whole time. If we can start the settler T20 and have a warrior to help explore/bust fog then I am fine. If we gain an extra hammer, it backs my theory of trying to work the highest yield tile at all times.

I would move him towards the AI border 1 tile per turn so you can retreat if necessary.

On the warrior, the trick to getting him at T20 was to work pasture cow plus a 3h forest hill (instead of the 2f 2h tile) for one turn. Which is another not working highest yield tile maneuver.

But your way gets a rather important 1 h overflow, knocking a turn off the settler (is that what you got in your test too, R1?)

On the scout, you are saying move him to clear terrain 1 tile, with a retreat option. Good point, I was missing that idea.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Cow-road + move to Sheep = 3 turns. Move to sheep = 2 turns. One of these paths builds the sheep pasture 1 turn earlier. I'm curious if that 1 turn makes a material difference to when the settler is born. I am guessing the answer is no, and the settler will take 11 turns regardless.

Incidentally, in the screenshot you have the worker moving over the silver to get to the sheep. While we're looking at micromanagement detail, I'll point out that if the worker takes a more southerly route you could put a part-built road on the tile south of the city. This option is only available if cow-road is complete.

Ah yes, even without cow road, worker makes silver hill in 1 turn, and the sheep on the next. The benefit of finishing the road between the city and cow for two consecutive road tiles (instead of pre build between and complete cow road while waiting for AH). I will test out that impact on the settler build later tonight.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

But your way gets a rather important 1 h overflow, knocking a turn off the settler (is that what you got in your test too, R1?)

Yes, start on T20 with 11 turns to build.

 

[Ronnie1]

2 turns at 2F2H > 1 turn at 3F + 1 turn at 3H.

 

[adrianj]

I've been thinking about doing some analysis of what the other teams are doing through the progress graphs. Last game we were streaking ahead of the competition, while in this game we are lagging a little bit. Might as well make use of that fact.

Could someone please open the game and hover the mouse over our in-game score. I'd expect you can see how our score is made up, eg, Population: XXX (1/AAA), Land: YYY (9/BBB). I'd like to know everything about that table for all of Population, Land, Tech and Wonders.

 

[da_Vinci]

2 turns at 2F2H > 1 turn at 3F + 1 turn at 3H.

Four is more than three, and eight is more than six ... who knew?

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

If we are clear on tile use and build order, what are we waiting for?

Could someone please open the game and hover the mouse over our in-game score. I'd expect you can see how our score is made up, eg, Population: XXX (1/AAA), Land: YYY (9/BBB). I'd like to know everything about that table for all of Population, Land, Tech and Wonders.

6 from Population (1/732)
0 from Land (0/985)
23 from Tech (4/334)
16 from Wonders (5/310)

Total Score 45
Score by winning this turn 10479

 

[da_Vinci]

If we are clear on tile use and build order, what are we waiting for?

Having seen no further discussion, I was thinking the same thing.

I will rerun the test, and see if 1 turn faster sheep speed settler. Then I will play to the completion of cow pasture and hand it off, with the worker unmoved after the build completion.

dV

edit: 1 turn faster sheep does not speed up settler, in fact, by the time the sheep is pastured on T 24, there are 63 hammers left on settler (37 done), which is 7 turns at 9 hammers (cow and 2f 2h) and is also 7 turns at 10 hammers (cow and 4 f 1h 2 C sheep). Moving to sheep takes two turns off BW however ... which makes me wonder if working the sheep all the way is same settler time but faster tech ... time for a look at that.

dV

edit 2: Hmm, working the unimproved sheep from T20 on got mining one turn earlier, settler still at T 31 after pasture (fastest worker arrival), BW 8 to go. That is second pic. Not any faster than the first way. So you get to choose between some science overflow working sheep all the way, or some hammer overflow working 2f 2h until sheep are pastured.

I am going to play to the cow pasture and hand off. I can't seem to get the autolog to make a file save it.

dV