SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

About what cities to keep? Suli's newest city for example can't have any food and must be razed. In general, 1 food resource minimum if there are other recources available, else 2 foods to keep imo. There is a chariot fortified in HF that can be used in our assault.
I think in general we want to keep most cities, yes? We've given up rapid expansion for an early rush. The way we make up for the slower expansion is to gobble up land and cities from the AI.

This is a great big landgrab. Grab it!

If we're concerned about :commerce:, then build cottages and work them. Things will get easier when we get to Currency and can build Wealth.

That said, I agree with Ronnie's 1 food resource minimum. He puts the 1 in Ronnie1! :lol: :mischief:
 
Make friends with Catherine, Julius, Napoleon and Victoria. Give in to all their requests, including stop trade requests EXCEPT ones against others in our bloc.
Ignore and cancel deals with (if asked) Louis, Peter, Augustus.
I usually never accept a stop trading demand, unless the victim is a very soon war target that is to be eliminated. Getting back from braking trade relations seems to take forever and it might cost us valuable tech trades. Even declaring war on someone seems to piss them off less in the long run. I also think the diplo negative with the requestor is generally inconsequential, or at least a lot less damaging.

I do agree with the 1 food resource city keep rule when expanding by force.

And that's a nice tight roster you made there, aj! :lol: Sure hope some guys get back in the loop.

Anyway, happy warmongering, haph! :hammer: Just to mention that we should look out for some roaming Sulei units, most specifically an archer west of CS. I think the city with minor micro could do an axe in 2 turns to protect our resources there. Also, I guess it's evident but workers ABC can't go to the other deer now if we declare this same turn.

Oh, a minor thing but I noticed that Victoria's worst enemy was Napoleon, which seems to indicate she doesn't know her english alter ego (presumably at -20). Could be likely that our remaining AI is on another land mass all together (as true English should :p).
 
Meanwhile, we will more quickly rotate around the active players.

As for right now, we've come back around to haphazard1

OK, I will need to take a detailed look at the save before I can post a draft PPP. Will try to get to this within a few hours.

Anyway, happy warmongering, haph! :hammer: Just to mention that we should look out for some roaming Sulei units, most specifically an archer west of CS. I think the city with minor micro could do an axe in 2 turns to protect our resources there. Also, I guess it's evident but workers ABC can't go to the other deer now if we declare this same turn.

Very good to know, nocho, thanks! Yeah, roaming Suleiman Ottoman units could be a problem. Most of our cities are not exactly heavily defended. Still, with fresh HAs being produced semi-steadily we should have something available to troubleshoot if we need to.

Oh, a minor thing but I noticed that Victoria's worst enemy was Napoleon, which seems to indicate she doesn't know her english alter ego (presumably at -20). Could be likely that our remaining AI is on another land mass all together (as true English should :p).

I pointed out Victoria's WE situation when we first met her. :D The other England (assuming the pairing of leaders per civ pattern holds) would be the final AI, with the hidden objective revealed if we meet them. So I am assuming they will be very hard to find/inaccessible.

I also would like to question choosing Napoleon over Louis as a potential friend. Louis is far more advanced (and is the current score leader), and is more likely to have useful things to trade us (techs, plus duplicated Calendar resources). Both French leaders have built an early wonder and could make good targets. But Napoleon is Victoria's WE (at least until she meets the other England). Overall I think I would prefer to ally with Louis.
 
I also would like to question choosing Napoleon over Louis as a potential friend. Louis is far more advanced (and is the current score leader), and is more likely to have useful things to trade us (techs, plus duplicated Calendar resources). Both French leaders have built an early wonder and could make good targets. But Napoleon is Victoria's WE (at least until she meets the other England). Overall I think I would prefer to ally with Louis.
Ok, cool. That's a compelling argument to change our mind about our French ally. Befriend Louis and ignore advances from Napoleon.

For the record, I'll amend my earlier post.
 
In fact that archer is probably the only unit of concern and indeed should be easily taken care of, but with some forethought. :)

Was just looking over some older saves, and it be noted that Suleiman's capital is located 3E from that first orange coastal forest tile we'll likely invade on. That means that if now is T0, we won't attack until T2, giving more room for Sulei to take counter measures. Maybe given that, we want to consider moving in next turn, as we'd have some more units available in the same wave. Dunno, but might be an option.
 
Ok, cool. That's a compelling argument to change our mind about our French ally. Befriend Louis and ignore advances from Napoleon.

For the record, I'll amend my earlier post.
TBH I don't think at this point we should settle all this in stone. My only real concern would be to keep a maximum number of potential trading partners, so I'm more inclined to a traditional balancing act than alienating half the world from us. ;)
 
OK, I have taken a look at the save. Lots of good stuff going on :) but also a few problems.

Draft PPP

Primary Goals

- Conquer Suleiman! :evil: Or at least start doing so....

Research and Tech Trading

- Complete Writing, then start Alphabet. Check each turn to see if we can trade HBR to Victoria for Alphabet. If/when available, do so. From pure beaker costs, I am guessing we will need to put maybe 4-5 turns (sustainable rate) into Alpha to make the deal work.

Diplomacy

- Catherine and Victoria are both willing to sign OB. I think we should immediately do so with both.
- Cancel sheep giveaway to Louis as soon as we are able (3 turns).
- Keep an eye on possible resource deals. We could do a sheep (or cow) deal for fish with either French civ right now, essentially a neutral deal for us (and we will shortly get our other sheep back anyway). I suggest waiting until we reclaim our sheep, then trade it to Louis for his fish. This will continue to accumulate resource-turn trade points with him, eventually giving us +diplo.
- Once Writing is done, should we sign OB deals with other AIs? All on the favored list? All? Other?

Worker Actions

- Davy should continue roading to connect Marble Arch to the rest of our civ. We are losing out on trade route revenue (plus happiness in MA) due to the lack of connection.
- One of A/B/C should head northeast to help road connect MA. Two turns would be lost in moving :( but we need more worker support for MA. We could do work along the way (partial tile improvements), delaying the arrival to help by a couple turns, but that may be better. MA won't pop borders for maybe 15-16 turns so we have some time. Alternately we could keep all three south.
- Other two (or all three) of A/B/C move to improve other deer for CS, as military cover allows. That Suleiman archer is very annoying. :( If not able to improve deer, prepare another mine.

City Builds and Management

- SL builds HAs.
- HF builds HAs.
- CS builds axe (to deal with that archer and/or cover workers, plus possible future anti-spear duty against Suleiman). Then HAs.
- MA finishes granary, then starts monument. Afterwards barracks.

Both SL and HF will grow into unhappiness almost immediately. :( We have good tiles to work, so I am reluctant to aggressively whip away pop to control unhappiness. That only works short term, or if you are planning to build some workers/settlers to allow whip anger time to wear off. How do we want to handle this? We could use more HAs...maybe always keep one whip anger counting down, but not stack the penalties?

Unit Management

- We have 2 warriors out of our borders, warrior 1 north of MA and warrior 2 to the west. I think both should be brought back inside our borders, as we are shortly going to be paying support costs as our army moves into Suleiman's territory. These two are not really gaining us much by being outside our borders, and will add to costs.
- Alternate idea for warrior 2: head north and explore Catherine's territory after we sign OB in a couple turns. It will cost us some money, but might be useful knowledge later.
- Our scout is unfortunately way out in Louis' territory and not available to be a medic. :( I think the best we can do is explore westward to find out more about that barb city -- is it an island? Reachable through Louis' territory? Need to be careful of Suleiman units, but also could probe Ottoman borders to learn more about future targets.

War Planning

- Declare immediately (this turn).
- Grab the worker south of HF using a chariot. Depending on what is defending that new city, we could either destroy it first (say if only warriors are defending) or leave it alone until later (archers on that hill). If spears are present we will need to reinforce the chariot to keep the worker.
- Note that Suleiman has copper at his city of Ankara, south of the new city. Ankara has expanded borders which will cover the copper, so we must assume it is hooked up and spears will be present. :( Do we make Ankara a priority target to disconnect Suleiman's metal, or do we push for his capital and hope not to find (m)any spears? We can always shift priority if we find the capital too strongly defended, so I am tempted to at least try to rush the capital.
- We have 5 HAs and a chariot available to move towards Suleiman's capital (leaving one chariot to take the worker and assuming it does not need immediate reinforcement). These move east into enemy territory, then push for the capital to see how strongly it is defended.
- Additional HAs (those that have already moved this turn, or newly built) flow forward as reinforcements. We may need to divert an HA to deal with that archer to the west of CS.

Miscellaneous

- Catherine has a settler moving south, to the west of the mountains. She will presumably grab some of the territory there, maybe including the copper. Not much we can do about it, just keep an eye on the area.
- Do we keep all EP on Catherine?

Stopping Conditions

- Any AI other than Victoria shows up with Alphabet.
- Any close neighbor declares war or goes WHEOOHRN.
- Victoria is willing to trade Alpha.
- Meet the final AI and can learn the hidden objective.
- Serious threat (AI or barb) to any of our cities.
- Something unexpected.
- 5 turns pass. I feel war turnsets should generally be kept short, to allow for team input and to avoid mistakes not getting spotted and corrected. Maybe play a couple blocks of 5 turns, then handover?
 
TBH I don't think at this point we should settle all this in stone. My only real concern would be to keep a maximum number of potential trading partners, so I'm more inclined to a traditional balancing act than alienating half the world from us. ;)

I just think that due to the extreme negative diplo modifiers set by Pollux, we are going to end up alienating at least half the world anyway. We are not going to be able to trade with everyone without making enemies of everyone. Better to have half the world to trade with rather than nobody.
 
I just think that due to the extreme negative diplo modifiers set by Pollux, we are going to end up alienating at least half the world anyway. We are not going to be able to trade with everyone without making enemies of everyone. Better to have half the world to trade with rather than nobody.
I don't think that's really true though. Remember that WE trading only applies with unbalanced deals, just be cautious with unbalanced deals. I do feel strongly about not accepting any stop trading requests, they're just hardly ever a good idea to accept.

Apart from all the unnecessary unhappy smilies quite okay with the PPP. :p I think the scout can easily head back/scout through Louis territory and at some point meet up with our HA army in conquered Sulei land.

I think HF should whip now. 2 unhappy faces are okay, in this case the 3rd unhappy face will wear off soon enough. I'd work mines on regrowth, not cottages! We need more HAs and mines are better for that. Basically just don't whip off resource tiles.

One of ABC could indeed go to road towards MA now. I'd just go asap there, the things to do on the way aren't very useful so no use delaying for that. Personally while the other 2 can't go to deer, really the most useful thing they can do is chop... Yeah, pre-math, but whatever. :p There's 2 grass hills for instance that could be mined.

On the warriors out, I left the northern one (half way to MA) to keep an eye on the road we want built there. Barb archers poured in from there. The other one I would indeed try to get OB with red russia and keep on scouting.
 
I don't think that's really true though. Remember that WE trading only applies with unbalanced deals, just be cautious with unbalanced deals. I do feel strongly about not accepting any stop trading requests, they're just hardly ever a good idea to accept.

I am unaware of anything with unbalanced deals. :confused: I thought any trading with WEs leads to penalties.

I agree about stop trading deals. The AIs sometimes hold a grudge for a really long time when you do this, and it rarely provides any benefit.

Apart from all the unnecessary unhappy smilies quite okay with the PPP. :p I think the scout can easily head back/scout through Louis territory and at some point meet up with our HA army in conquered Sulei land.

I was thinking similar for the scout, just hoping he does not get caught alone and killed by some random Suleiman unit.

I think HF should whip now. 2 unhappy faces are okay, in this case the 3rd unhappy face will wear off soon enough. I'd work mines on regrowth, not cottages! We need more HAs and mines are better for that. Basically just don't whip off resource tiles.

We do need some commerce. But mostly we do need more HAs right now. I think visibility on Suleiman's capital will tell us a lot about just how much force we will need.

On the warriors out, I left the northern one (half way to MA) to keep an eye on the road we want built there. Barb archers poured in from there. The other one I would indeed try to get OB with red russia and keep on scouting.

I think Peter's and Louis' new cities will greatly reduce or eliminate barb spawning near MA. I do plan to cover the workers as they road.
 
I also don't think we should go antagonising the "others" just yet. I do think it is a good idea to be clear of our "friends" (Catherine, Julius, Louis, Victoria) though. With a Roman war possibly coming soon, we will want to be clear who we are willing to declare war against (against Augustus) if asked (by Julius).

Similar for stop trading deals. It's only relevant if they ask us. Nocho suggested to deny all stop trade requests... I'm not so sure. I think we should quickly give up trading with the "others".

Also, if we are going to set up Resource trades, we might as well prioritise our future friends to start building up good relations with them.

OBs... they're a balanced deal and won't ever lead to WE trade issues, so might as well sign them with everyone. This does run the risk of Stop Trade requests coming in. For now... I suggest signing with our friends ASAP. Don't we get a + modifier for that after some turns?

Turn to Declare
If we hold off for one turn before declaring war, does that make our worker situation better? If the one turn makes a big difference, then I think we can hold off for a turn. If we need 2 or more turns for the workers to complete, then I guess don't wait.

If the Scout is far away then he can continue searching for the last AI. That's probably a more important task than acting as a medic. We could always build a chariot and make it a medic if we need. Maybe build one next out of SL: faster build = faster to the front line.

Stopping after 5 turns is a good idea. I'd suggest to make it a pause though. No need to hand over to the next person so quick.
 
He puts the 1 in Ronnie1!
You're hilarious aj!:lol:
North of MA there is no need for fogbusting! Everything is either busted by someones culture or the barbs will hit an AI 1st. We may still want to keep a couple units up there just for safety from AI's, but you do not need to cover the units while roading from barbs.

I would wait and DOW next turn. Don't forget about the chariot in HF, that makes 8 available next turn that can reach Suli territory! Grab the worker for sure! Divert a unit to cut roads from Ankara eliminating the copper from the majority of cities hopefully.:dunno:

- Other two (or all three) of A/B/C move to improve other deer for CS, as military cover allows. That Suleiman archer is very annoying. If not able to improve deer, prepare another mine.
I would move the workers individually and build roads on the tiles we wish to improve at this point. There is no reason to use 2-3 movement points just to get on a tile any more imo. Also, we have to use the follow along HA that is NE of CS to deal with the archer. We have no other options. If we can't get to the deer in the short run, then I agree with nocho that we need another grass hill mine.
I do feel strongly about not accepting any stop trading requests, they're just hardly ever a good idea to accept.
I agree with nocho here, I would take the -1 for not cancelling deals.
 
I am unaware of anything with unbalanced deals. :confused: I thought any trading with WEs leads to penalties.
No, only unbalanced deals lead to penalties. As you know, for a 400 beaker tech of an AI normally you should offer something worth about 500 beakers for an AI to accept it (don't know the exact ratios, but something like this). If you do such a trade, no other AIs will take offense, not even worst enemies. If however you offer 600 beakers for that 400 beaker tech, the thing is getting unbalanced and WE penalty will be incurred. The larger your generosity, the larger the penalty (with a maximum of -4). However, if the AI throws in some extra cash to balance things out, no penalty will follow. The cash part normally is a good gauge to see what is balanced. If an AI throws in some amount, but has more cash available (i.e. you're sure he pays max cash), then it's a balanced deal. Pre-currency therefore it's trickier to know when a deal is balanced, as the minimal unit of trade is larger and the deal can be fine tuned less (a tech instead of 1 gold).

To think of it in another way, if you get a diplo plus for fair trade with an AI, that same diplo plus will most likely translate into a diplo negative with that AI's worst enemy. Diplo pluses are only given out for unbalanced deals as you know (where the human is more generous than necessary for the deal to be made). If however the first AI isn't particularly celebrating the deal (no diplo plus), then his WE won't be bothered either.

I think resource-resource deals typically are fair, not sure about resource-gpt deals though (with low gpt), although I think they are not affected either. Those deals however may invoke stop trading demands, evidently.
 
Sorry for the delay...have some family activities today with brothers, aunts, cousins, etc. I will try to fit in some turns tonight, maybe 12 hours from now. So there is plenty of time to comment still. :D
 
No hurries. :) I hope you can make Sulei suffer a bit. In case of unexpected heavy defenses please hold on for a minute (or day..). In any case, about 5 turns like you said for now seems good for some feedback. Fine with me if you play more after that though.
 
I'm looking forward to hearing about your attack on Suli.

Regarding the "Stop Trading" deals, sounds like we have a consensus to always decline this type of request. Is it in our interest to prevent them from ever coming up? Ie, should we avoid setting up ongoing trade deals like resource trades and OB with Napoleon, Augustus and Peter?
 
Apologies for the delay, everyone. Unfortunately I have come down with a virus and have been feeling very poorly. :( It would probably be best to skip me for now. Sorry. :(
 
Get well soon and tell your family not to bring along the flu next time.. ;)

Ron, time for some action!
 
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