SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[namliaM]

Also, testing to far beyond T30 is not very relevant because of unseen terrain.

Testing to T30 would seem to produce a good comparison point.

My argument for Wheel > Pottery allows for virtually no wasted worker turns before T30.

Roads are kindoff wasted worker turns, since we dont really need them ... atleast for now...
No BW really REALLY hurts with all that food, atleast IMHO.
While worker turns are important in the overall sceme of things they seem worthless comparing to cities and offcourse beakers

Testing 30 turns is very short, true about the unseen land but we can see alot and atleast can agree to settle max 4 cities, or max 3 and keep any surplus settlers sleeping
Regardless of the further environment, I have a STRONG feeling those two gems (and their 13 commerce) will be our 3rd city

I am for moving the worker, I am the one that suggested it in the first place with Hap's added fix

 

[namliaM]

City 2 connected for trade on T24.

4 commerce gained vs waiting for the 3rd ring border pop at the expense of 4 worker turns and 97 beakers. True eventually we need to spend the beakers and worker turns but is the investment now vs the delay of BW worth it?

As noted before, few wasted worker turns after initially waiting for border pop (deer), 1 turn waiting for agriculture (wheat), 4 turns waiting for wheel, 1 turn moving from cow back to riverside.

Waiting for agri can be fixed easily, by working the crab 2 turns after border pop (still not sure if that is productive vs losing the four hammers. Could finish the workboat a turn earlier and add a food, but lose the food again on farming the Wheat... I think getting agri the one turn faster is worth the 4 hammers.

Summary of test @T45

Pop = 7
1 Settler
2 worker
3 warrior
1 scout
7 improvements + 4 roads
Researched Tech total = AG>Wheel>Pottery>Mining>BW>AH34/162 = 633 total tech value

my best attempt so far
3 cities
- Athens (5) 21/50 into a galley and 18/50 into a barracks for potential 2 pop overflow whip
- Sparta (2) 58/60 into a worker
- Corinth (1) 12/15 into a warrior
Total pop 8, though you have a settler waiting not sure how long
6 warriors 3 workboats (all netted)

Tech 662 beakers
Ag 97> Mining 80> BW 195> Sailing 162> AH 128/162

Biggest draw back on my attempt is the lack of the second worker which I am still building in Sparta, though at the moment I am not working much unimproved tiles

Settler first, BW Beeline
Gets the settler done at turn 18
Settling the city drops science to 70% working the lake for extra commerce
Gems online at turn 32

Total tech 656 beakers
Mining > BW > Ag > AH > sailing 122/162
Athens (3) 47/50 into barracks
Sparta (2) 48/60 into a worker
Corinth (1) just settled
4 Warriors 2 workboats

One plus on this attempt is the Cows are improved and in use over the crabs.
Though the loss of the workboat, 2 warriors and -9 +10+12 hammers in the production queue...
For a total of 30 + 30 + 10 + 12 = 73 hammers less in this attempt vs "my best"
And the 2 "lost" pop in Athens

Overall this makes a huge difference IMHO....

For the purpose of the test games, lets agree to settle city 3 on the north east corner and the fourth city on the north west?

 

[Ronnie1]

Roads are kindoff wasted worker turns, since we dont really need them ... atleast for now...
No BW really REALLY hurts with all that food, atleast IMHO.
While worker turns are important in the overall sceme of things they seem worthless comparing to cities and offcourse beakers

I agree everything except the BW part. I would also say roads are not wasted turns if the alternative is waiting for a tech to complete.

I tried again a bit more focused. I assumed city 3 would go to the other gem site.

Settler 1st juggled as before.
Researched Tech total = AG>Wheel>Pottery>Mining>BW>AH 26/162 = 625 total tech value
Summary of test @T45

City 2 founded T22
City 3 founded T39

Pop = 9
2 worker
3 warrior
1 scout
7 improvements + 4 roads

Settler 1st juggled as before.
Researched Tech total = AG>Mining>BW>AH>Wheel 70/97 = 604 total tech value
Summary of test @T45

City 2 founded T22
City 3 founded T40

Pop = 8
3 worker
3 warrior
1 scout
7 improvements

 

[Ronnie1]

I am putting city 3 2N of the wheat so it can grow.

I really think the 1st goal should be fastest city 2 founding. This goal is independent of any other goal. City 2 is always a net gain, and it makes sense to me that we should do it asap given the free worker.

 

[Ronnie1]

I think I just completed my best test.

650 total beakers @ T45

8 pop

2 workers, 1 more in 2 turns, and almost a completed Granary in Athens!

 

[Sleepless]

I'm happy for the worker to go S - SE.

 

[Ronnie1]

That makes 4/6 for moving the worker!

I will do it now!

 

[Ronnie1]

Done

Reference number: 14484
Game: C-IV SGOTM 21
Your team: Misfit Gypsy Nuts
Your name: Ronnie1
Date submitted: 2015-01-12
Software Version: BtS 3.19
Game date: 4000BC
Total turns played: 0
Session turns played: 0
Player race: Greece
Firaxis score: 11
Session time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:08:23
Total time played (hh:mm:ss): 00:08:23
Game status: Incomplete
Submitted save: Pericles BC-4000_Worker_Move.CivBeyondSwordSave
Renamed file: Misfit_Gypsy_Nuts_SG021_BC4000_02.CivBeyondSwordSave

Nothing revealed but ocean and ice in the fog. We are at the bottom of the world!

 

[haphazard1]

Thanks, Ronnie1, for getting us officially started.

With no additional food to the south of the peninsula, I think 2E for the capital looks like our best option. Exactly what to build and tech first still seems to be under discussion, and we also need to decide where we want to send our scout. So those are the next items that we need to reach consensus on before continuing.

 

[Sleepless]

My initial thoughts though as I mentioned only had a very quick glance at the game and very quick playthrough.

I assume if were on the same continent as Wil there is a lot more land to the North (or at least some) so grabbing that is quite a high priority and might change the settling of city 3 though thats for the future.

Tech agr first seems the favourite then we have a bit of divulgence in thoughts.

I know we lose some wasted worker turns going mining - bw but being able to chop/whip earlier will have some benefit and with the sea/gems commerce isn't going to be to much of an early problem. Generally with the Glh we won't have any problems with lack of commerce at all.

I'm certainly not discounting wheel/pottery but with cities/gem resources being linked up without the need for roads and no lack of commerce knocking out the need for early cottages (especially as we only have a small river from what we can see). Granaries for whipping though are very desirable!!! Decisions decisions..

Looking a bit further ahead with only the cows in sight AH seems a lot of beakers for little benefit at the moment so after BW a beeline for sailing masonry and look to chop build the Glh in our likely second city.

Mmm now starting to think of the Oracle and writing as well... to much to do and not enough time..

First city build?? I've no problem with settler first but also we want to time growing to size 2 the same time the wheat farm is finished imho. So wb or warrior in growth phase seems the best option with the wb getting my vote.

Edit: As regards the scout I'd be more inclined to go exploring NE as our second city looks very likely to be crab/cow. Anyone been able to fog gaze the original save?

 

[Ronnie1]

You can't link the Gems for without the Wheel!

Pottery leads directly to Writing for our cheap Libraries and 50% increase in value of the whip! We also have the ability to REX immediately without whipping as I already showed! And so far no one has produced a better test result by going Mining > BW before Wheel > Pottery as it relates to growth and REX. I guarantee if you try both paths, BW "feels" slower!

First city build?? I've no problem with settler first but also we want to time growing to size 2 the same time the wheat farm is finished imho. So wb or warrior in growth phase seems the best option with the wb getting my vote.

Edit: As regards the scout I'd be more inclined to go exploring NE as our second city looks very likely to be crab/cow. Anyone been able to fog gaze the original save?

1st Build = settler @T1, switch to Warrior once Deer is camped. Warrior will complete (still size 1) and then start a WB fro 1 turn to allow growth to size2(farm not done yet). As soon as we reach size 2, back to the Settler who completes T20 and settles T22.

Fog gazing = briefly! Some 3 land tiles west of the cow. 2N1W of the cow is water, and north of that seems land again. Everything north seem dry, with a couple forests, a hill or 2 and a peak N of the visible one.


I want to talk more about Settler 1st. I do it quite a bit in solo games. Some form of production cue juggling while waiting tor tiles to be improved. If I do it, I usually do it after my initial worker build. When there are still no unimproved tiles. AS SOON as a food tile is improved, switch to something that allows growth. AS SOON as I am at size 2, I switch back to my settler and wait for next growth and improved tile. I basically try to be building settler and later worker if I am working unimproved tiles. My favorite "lesson" from Duckweed once upon a time sounded like this, "Is there any build better than Settler next?"

I also want to express that I don't feel roads are wasted improvements. I would much rather build a road than a riverside farm that will get cottaged over later! Roads going north will help all future movement from the bottom of the world!

 

[Ronnie1]

I keep testing alternative tech orders!

I really want some others to test Wheel > Pottey -vs- Mining > BW.

My results have me convinced that BW 1st is actually the slower path for the following reason(s).
1) More stationary worker turns
2) Less total beakers @T45
3) Fewer long term usable tile improvements

 

[Sleepless]

@Ronnie1 the gems on the river will automatically hook up. Well they do in namliaM's test games.

I have to admit I haven't really played the start yet. Just a quick rush through (with a few mistakes) for 39 turns. I did have a quick glance at your last save before work which does seem a pretty strong start.

I'll have time to play some proper test games tomorrow. Stupid work gets in the way of CIV..

Settler first as an option I've never reallly considered in personal games except as Charlie starting on a ph with a plains forest start. Works here due to the worker.

 

[Ronnie1]

I don't believe the Gems will be hooked by the river in the real game. The river in the real game is not connected to any of our city sites as far as I can tell.

Settler first as an option I've never reallly considered in personal games except as Charlie starting on a ph with a plains forest start. Works here due to the worker.

Not usually 1st here either. As I said, I will often get a few beakers into one while waiting for my 1st food tile to be improved, and then finish him asap at size 2-3 depending on what tiles are available to be improved and if improvement rate can keep up with growth. Getting improved tiles up is usually the bottleneck for me early.

 

[namliaM]

You can't link the Gems for without the Wheel!

The river will connect up the gems for us if
1) the river is inside our borders
or
2) we have sailing

As long as the river reaches the coast and we unfog it sailing will hook it thru the river ... only problem would be if the river is not right in my test game, but I think it is properly layed out...

IF we are going settler first, I would omit the warrior and start a workboat instead.
Simply because the risk of no escort is minimal.
It is only 1 tile we cannot see, that tile then at the wrong time needs to have a wolf or panther there to be any real risk... That tile could even be safely defoged by the worker if we choose to use the worker as a 'scout'

My best attempt as I listed earlier I think still beats your attempt in both hammers and beakers produced

my best attempt so far
3 cities
- Athens (5) 21/50 into a galley and 18/50 into a barracks for potential 2 pop overflow whip
- Sparta (2) 58/60 into a worker
- Corinth (1) 12/15 into a warrior
Total pop 8, though you have a settler waiting not sure how long
6 warriors 3 workboats (all netted)

Tech 662 beakers
Ag 97> Mining 80> BW 195> Sailing 162> AH 128/162

Biggest draw back on my attempt is the lack of the second worker which I am still building in Sparta, though at the moment I am not working much unimproved tiles

 

[nocho]

Good work on all the testing guys. Have been unable to contribute much so far in that sense, maybe tonight I have a moment. Yesterday I lost internet connection, today had work.

@namliaM, I'm not sure if "minimal" risk of losing a settler is really acceptable. These kind of things have happened to me. With 2-move animals still around I'm really not willing to risk settlers or workers. I think we should grow first on a warrior.

I haven't been able to go through all the detail of these tests yet, but in your test, namliam, did you actually switch to slavery and whipped something and/or did you chop yet by T45? I ask in order to assess whether BW asap really is all that important to go for first.

 

[namliaM]

Detailed turnset report

01 settle athens, start AG
04 borders popped work crab 2 turns, worker starts camp on deer
06 back to deer
07 finish camp
10 AG is in, start farm, work the Beaver for one turn
14 workboat done, farm done, put one turn into *anything* workboat is my choice
15 start settler
17 Mining in, start mine with worker
23 settler done, work wheat, deer and mine for Workboat > Warrior ASAP
24 Sparta founded, start warrior
25 make sparta work the river farm near Athens
26 border pop, traderoutes between athens and sparta Athens at size 4 work all improved tiles
30 Warrior MP in Athens, now size 5 start another warrior in 3 working max food to grow to size 6
31 BW in, start mine on gems near sparta, net sparta's crabs
32 start settler in athens
35 revolt slavery
36 3 pop whip the settler overflow into 3 warriors, start galley
finish warrior in Sparta for mp, start worker
38 gems up
41 settle Corinth on the far NE corner

note the screenshot, using the worker to make sure that the settler will be safe
This attempt completed all of
AG > Mining > BW > Sailing > AH

 

[Ronnie1]

As long as the river reaches the coast and we unfog it sailing will hook it thru the river ... only problem would be if the river is not right in my test game, but I think it is properly layed out...

I don't believe it goes to the coast northward. Looks like all land up there in the fog.

I have looked at all the final saves you loaded "nM", thanks for providing them!

The last one is pretty good, but I would still take the position at T45 of the save I posted here.I am very close on total beakers ~650, and haven't worked a Gem yet. Other pluses imo are the nearly complete granary in capitol, the road network north, and 3 workers on T46.

 

[Ronnie1]

Looking at your last save more closely. Why do have so many hammers into warriors? Easily another worker or 2.

 

[Ronnie1]

Here is a new test game with the Buffy mod in place. We will be able to compare autologs of our tests, and we can make sure all the functions are working properly.