SGOTM 22 - Anti-TSR

[LowtherCastle]

Oh, you read that this was supposed to be easy? Strange, I wrote the opposite...

Actually, I read all of what you said, not just the first half of the paragraph you quoted:

This scenario is intentionally more straight forward than previous games. It won't be easy, but less confusing, hopefully. Our goal was to offer an opportunity to players who didn't take part in any SGOTM in the past. All our teams are happy to accept new members of any skill level.

This game is NOT:

• straightforward
• less confusing
• an opportunity suitable for players who haven't taken part in any SG
• an opportunity suitable for new members of any skill level

Plus, who asked you?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Final reason I want Hadr and Carthage:
Ivory and Marble. We need to build wonders very, very fast once we get Aes.

We can pick them up any time we want. Sal is urgent.

Why is it 2 praets/city for Sal and 4-5 for Hanni?

Baghdad is a 20% flat city defended by a 3*2.4=7.2 archer (toss-up because of 1-2 strikes) and an axe. It's coastal and far from the raging barbs so it won't get more defenders.

Hadr is a 40% city defending by a 3*2.7=8.1 archer plus 3 other units most of the time, on the frontlines of barb invasions. Carthage is on a hill with walls, et cetera.

Of course we attack Baghdad with 4 praets but likely 3-4 live to move on to Medina. Carthage might require 6-8 praets, half dying, depending on the number of defenders.

 

[WastinTime]

more rambling...Darius techs...

I think after wishing Math and Construction successfully, I'm going to wish/predict Currency. I'm scared of anyone getting Aes too soon, but I suppose if anyone gets it, we want it to be Darius first, so maybe I should wish for Aes... but I'm not saying I am. I'll go for the classic 3rd wish...I'd like to wish for more wishes.

 

[LowtherCastle]

If FC 2whips a galley instead of a worker and wkr2 comes to build the 2 wineries. How soon can we get 4 praets on 2 galleys, after we connect iron? 6 turns after that we capture Baghdad. No new roads needed. Just 4 praets out of Rome, HC, and Bovino. Plus, of course, Rome pop10, 5 more chariots and 1 Rome monument.

180h 4 praets
150h 5 chariots
30h 1 monument
100h (iron settler)
60h (12th defender)

 

[LowtherCastle]

We should mine the Rome bananas for 2f3h. Gives Rome 16hpt.

 

[LowtherCastle]

1. Rome @13hpt and HC @10hpt can build 5 chariots and 1 monument in 8 turns.
2. It takes the praets 8+ turns to move from Rome to capture Baghdad.
3. Rome @13hpt and HC @10hpt can build 4 praets in ~10t or less.
4. Build praets first. Capture Baghdad 18t after connecting iron.

Sooner if FC and Bovino can help with praets.

 

[WastinTime]

Another issue with Hanni. His UU is on HBR, so he should go for that. Add Construction to that and he gets Elephants. And he hates us. So he's probably going to attack us anyway and we won't be ready. The other AI should start fighting each other soon.

Having said that, I'm warming up to the Sal first idea. I'm scared 4 praets is not enough to take and hold the city, but how fast can we get 2 galleys and 4 praets...What's the capture turn? ...working...

xpost: you're working it too i c.

 

[WastinTime]

The way this game is going, we should just turtle up and build 7 wonders. Let the AI expand until they reach us.

 

[Pollina]

I like the idea to attack Saladin first. But why not go straight for Mecca for Stonehenge, Hindu shrine, holy city EP bonus, great commerce, food, production,...? It is 1 tile off the coast, so it can be captured on DOW+1 like Medina and Baghdad. We should at least send a scout there to see how heavily defended it is.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I like the idea to attack Saladin first. But why not go straight for Mecca for Stonehenge, Hindu shrine, holy city EP bonus, great commerce, food, production,...? It is 1 tile off the coast, so it can be captured on DOW+1 like Medina and Baghdad. We should at least send a scout there to see how heavily defended it is.

Good luck talking WT into that...

 

[LowtherCastle]

We should probably focus on the next few turns so we can (attempt to) get IW. Then we can make precise plans because we'll know the story on iron.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I remembered one difference from how I usually conduct espionage tech stealing. I usually gift the city, with 5-turn fortified spies, on the turn I want to steal the techs. That obviously doesn't explain the 1 in 100,000 odds we have suffered, but it clearly makes a big difference.

After Barb Cows grows to pop2, we could do that. The barbs would re-capture it, but that's okay. Just means we can re-re-capture without DoWing Darius. Rinse and repeat. Eventually we won;t be stealing techs so often anyway. Of course, we'd havve to meet the ROme requirements also.

 

[WastinTime]

the problem with Mecca is that I think the AI adds defenders for the capital, holy cities, and wonder cities. Mecca is all three of those, right?

To get a quick 1st city, we probably want one of the easier coastals.

Another advantage to coastal is we can have 2 amphibious finishers/city defenders after our skeleton army attempts to take the city.

We can bring some cats in for Mecca.

 

[WastinTime]

I guess this game falls into the "be careful what you wish for" category. I would have liked some military challenge--more like a couple hurdles. I was picturing barb mech infantry or an AI with advanced units. Unfortunately, we basically got a "Quick speed, Deity" game. One of the most hated Civ configurations. That's how this will play. It has that exact feeling you get on quick speed where you build an army and it's obsolete by the time it gets to the target. The AI is actually teching faster than Deity when compared to us. In fact, the only way to keep up is stealing...which has the potential to be a fun way to play Civ, but unfortunately, we have a long slog ahead of us.

I can't imagine new players would be interested in this full map conquest...with no vassals It's the exact type of game I've avoided for my entire 10 year career with Civ. I've literally never played Praets, elepults, cuirassier, or the other quick speed conquest standards.

 

[LowtherCastle]

PPP T95-T98 Revisions

Tech: aesthetics at 0% (we could think the unthinkable and consider teching Sailing(3t), since we want Math and COnstruction asap. Timed with the FC wkr completion or earlier and skip the FC wkr)

Steal BW-IW(-Math)

Rome: spy
HC: granary or RAX?
FC: worker or not?
Bovino: granary

wkr1: optimal path to HC winery
wkr2: optimal path to 2 FC wineries
wkr3: start roading worker trap at stone tile and ??? tile
hurry back to homeland to chop out scores of praets

wb: move toward Zara, clearing a TR path in "ocean" tiles as needed

move warrior garrisons to cities
spy on Barb-Cows with chariot

BW+0 revolt to HeredRule+SLavery?
Then cancel pigs for fur?


xpost

 

[LowtherCastle]

It has that exact feeling you get on quick speed where you build an army and it's obsolete by the time it gets to the target. The AI is actually teching faster than Deity when compared to us.

That's where our brains come in. Cripple Sal with guns, Darius with costs. We can do it. Let's win this with praets.

AI teching will slow down because they can't trade.

 

[Pollina]

the problem with Mecca is that I think the AI adds defenders for the capital, holy cities, and wonder cities. Mecca is all three of those, right?

To get a quick 1st city, we probably want one of the easier coastals.

Another advantage to coastal is we can have 2 amphibious finishers/city defenders after our skeleton army attempts to take the city.

We can bring some cats in for Mecca.

I'm not against taking Baghdad as city#5. Medina on its own is kinda crappy. I'm inclined to raze it and plan for Mecca as city#6.

Looks to me like Sal is already running an early culture strategy, which would make him more likely to build wonders, iirc. So we shouldn't delay capturing Mecca for too long, if our goal is to keep him from building wonders.

 

[WastinTime]

That's where our brains come in. Cripple Sal with guns, Darius with costs. We can do it. Let's win this with praets.

AI teching will slow down because they can't trade.

Of course we can do it with Praets, it just doesn't sound like any fun (for me.)
I'll focus on the wonder strategy.

If we lose the Aes wonders, we're in for a long game. We can't tech fast enough and if we let the AI tech, they will build the wonder before us....especially if it's someone other than Darius who got the tech first.

Thinking out loud:
We let Darius pick one more tech after Construction (T104). If it is not Aes (prediction Currency) then would we need to tech Aes? We'd be looking at Aes around T111. That seems too soon. We might as well not have Aes if we can't start wonders.

So we let Darius pick another tech and decide then whether to start Aes.

Worst case, we're looking at Aes T120. And other AI might have Aes too. We need Marble/Ivory/gold by then.

 

[WastinTime]

Don't road the worker trap. Not needed.
Plan to get Peace by threatening a city. Then we can stake out the Ivory tile for another worker.
Send another Chariot or two or three up north to successfully bring back each worker.
barb metal units might start appearing if they haven't already. Would be ~40 turns after most of the AIs got BW.

 

[WastinTime]

Mecca has another huge drawback. It's much farther (too far) away.