SGOTM 22 - Fifth Element

[enKage]

Slowbuilding GWall just from the moment worker is ready gave me t48 GWall, No BW though. We can give up everything and simply go for BW - Masonry _ Archery and get it faster.

Possibilities we have:
a) slowbuilding GW without BW - around t48
b) building GW with BW - ?
c) settling for Stone - I guess somewhere close t50? (as soon as stone is settled+3 turns)
d) settling for horses and no GW
e) settling for horses and GWall around t60

a) and b) we dont even need lighthouse and sailing because we are not settling prior to GW.

Big advantage of BW scenarios is that we can basically build GW in 1 turn, minimalizing our loses to failgold (so we can put all the hammers into other wonder)

 

[zbgayumn]

Any updated test to check it?

Yeah, there is now.

I was really confused when I went to open up my T5 test game and couldn't find it. I finally decided that I did all that work in WorldBuilder and then played through a complete test without ever saving at the beginning.

So, I completely started over tonight and took the opportunity to include all of the right opponents. It's probably impossible that I got every forest or plain or hill correct. But it's got to be close.

 

[pigswill]

As well as the restrictions on settling new cities its also worth considering that the city of Rome must have seven (7) World Wonders.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Big advantage of BW scenarios is that we can basically build GW in 1 turn, minimalizing our loses to failgold (so we can put all the hammers into other wonder)

I've heard people talk about this idea but don't really get it, is the idea you chop / whip something into a Wonder for 1 turn then remove the Wonder from the queue until you're ready to chop / whip again, rinse and repeat?

 

[enKage]

NZ not exactly. We just want to pruduce at single turn enough hammers to produce a wonder. It is made by chops (but hard to do it with 1 worker, so 1 chop only possible) and managing overflow.

What I think of is:
- prebuild worker to 29/60 and WB to 29/30
- settle stone
- next turn BW is finished, revolt
- double whip worker (remove from queau)
- whip WB
- WB ready --> ca. 29 overflow goes further
- worker ready - ca. 60 overflow goes further (includind those from WB)
- GW in 1 turn because of overflow (and maybe 1 chop).

Because we have no hammers put in GW before, we risk"wasting" hammers only during 1 turn.

From this scenario you can see we have GWall 6or 7 turns after settling Stone. Settler is t41 and I didnt count the way to desire spot. (8-9 turns?, quite a lot and doesnt give a big advantage over other settlings)


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After some thinking after my prior post I tend to value settling horses first. If we want GWall we will have to do at least 1 more whip and chop but we are secure in terms of not researching Archery. Alternatively we can settle somewhere closer and have more time to whip. The situation requires a lot of testing


There is also a matter how to settle horses. Improving horses take 6 turns and horses will be vulnarable of pillaging. Settling directly on horses gives a weak city, but at least it may serve as unit spammer for Rome for some time


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edit: settle on horses 6 turns, 1S from red sot 5 turns. + 5 turns improving horses

 

[enKage]

t65 GW will settled 1W from horses, but I spoilt Rome micro, so should have saved some turns. I also put stone on Celt capitol. First wonder went t45 - stonehenge in Bibracte

 

[enKage]

t60 GWall. If I find a way to save 8 hammers, it would be t59. 2 chops, chariot whip OF to GWall, WB->worker chain overflow to GWall

I attached the SG when settler is ready and we are a step from BW - can research it at 0% (also maybe someone finds better way prior settler)

 

[enKage]

Starting techs in case AIs go for GWall:

Hannibal: fishing mining, 1 tech from masonry ---> Oracle prioritised?
Darius: hunting, agri, 2 techs from Masonry
Saladin: Mist, wheel, 1 tech from Masonry
Gilga: Agri, wheel, 2 techs from masonry
Celts: Mist Hunt --> 1 techs from Masonry
Zara: Agri, The wheel --> 2 techs from masonry.

It means most AIs have to tech mining prior before masonry and reasonably thinking will build GWall for at least 15 turns. Both Mist leaders went for religions, so we can count them as they were 2 techs from masonry too. In extreme evil conditions they can in theory finish it in early t40. On normal setting I dont expect anyone to finish it before t70

There is a race for Monotheism now, so we can expect at least Saladin researching Masonry soon

 

[pigswill]

Quick whizz from zb's latest save goodjob. Gwall T47, horse city T59.

 

[enKage]

Quick whizz from zb's latest save goodjob. Gwall T47, horse city T59.

Techs, units, builds?
In terms of earlier GSpy sounds promising. More or less it is equal to my first test when I daleyed everything and got t48 slowbuilding GWall just after worker - the problem was no units (chariots) prebuilt, no naval exploration and probably later 3rd city. Any thoughts how to overcome this?

As comparison settling horses first gave me at the moment of GW t60: 2 exploring WB, 2 chariots, 2 workers, LH in Rome, horses improved. Techs: wheel, BW, masonry, Agri, Pottery. Havent met any barb archer

 

[pigswill]

Like I said a quick whizz, wheel's worth getting after masonry to start road towards city which saves a coupe of turns. Could consider researching BW to within 1 turn. I lost a warrior on the way back, built archer before settler to protect roading worker, built fourth warrior while settler in transit.

 

[enKage]

Like I said a quick whizz, wheel's worth getting after masonry to start road towards city which saves a coupe of turns. Could consider researching BW to within 1 turn. I lost a warrior on the way back, built archer before settler to protect roading worker, built fourth warrior while settler in transit.

If you went archery it is not worth to omit BW

 

[zbgayumn]

A comment on 'Mids:

I played through a scenario where I built the 2nd city next to Horse (~T45), built GWall (~T61), and then put a third city on top of Stone that's off to the NW. I then built 'Mids on T110.

I pretty much made a mess of things along the way. If I had properly carried whip overflow, I could've easily beat T100. However, the point to be made here is that 'Mids was still available that late.

 

[pigswill]

As i understand it if we research BW before second city then Rome needs a garrison of 4 archers (not warriors) before we can found the second city. Is this correct?

 

[enKage]

As i understand it if we research BW before second city then Rome needs a garrison of 4 archers (not warriors) before we can found the second city. Is this correct?

Yes, that's why we dalay BW till 2nd city. In fact we should really consider archery because every archer is cheaper than chariot, but chariots mobility allow us not to keep them all time in the city

 

[pigswill]

Archery is also a pre-req for HAs which is probably the way to go. We can build a few chariots in One Horse Town while waiting for HbR, maybe build Glite in Rome. There's no guarantee of nearby copper or iron so we may need a third city for metals, alternatively we could be given copper in BFC to reward teams that gamble.

The immediate question is whether we go for second city before Gwall. I've had enough bad luck in Civ to be risk averse so I'd vote for Gwall first.

 

[enKage]

GLH - I like it only because of GM chances. Otherwise with limited number of cities I am not sure if it is worth effort

Archery - In terms of HBR and HA - I dont think it is the best way to go with those jungle separating us and hill cities, especially with elephants probably in 3rd city. To take Carthage on hill with spear we need let's say min 8 HA and there is a long way there in terms of turns. Before getting there we will go bankrupt if we focus early archery and HBR. I see archery rather about our 4th or even 5th city

GWall - really I can live without even on raging barbs. It helps a lot but I dont consider it as gamebreaking on monarch

We have a lot of reseacrh on our way and if it a possibility not to research sth, we should skip it. Wheel, pottery, writing, agriculture is a must also some religious unless we simply not chop libraries. Before AIs rather like Monarchy I would prefer steal religion techs and IW from them instead of researching them ourselves

 

[enKage]

Just a save from t60 GWall and t43 city settling (2 chops in cap, 1 chop in 2nd city). Horses are pillaged because our chariot lost at extremely funny odds

 

[zbgayumn]

I've been doing some thinking on this scenario and how it effects the 'normal' mode of gameplay. Now that we've explored the surrounding area, we have reasonable idea of what resources we expect. So, here goes.

Happiness

Only 5 happy resources nearby, so we need to rely on other methods. Religion isn't likely to spread to us, so we should consider CoL and founding Confu. On the other hand, we can use Hereditary Rule to keep Rome happy and that's the only one that will be a major issue.

Health

I count 8 health resources around, and with granary and harbor, we can get to 16 health. Throw in an aqueduct, and hopefully Hanging Gardens and it gets to 19. That's pretty much all the health we are likely to need.

Wonders

If we can manage it, I would take these as our 7 Wonders:

Great Wall
Pyramids
Colossus
Hanging Gardens
Statue of Zeus (it's cheap)
Great Library
MoM

That's not very deep in the tech tree, which brings me to my next thought...

Conquest

enKage is right that Horse Archer conquest isn't likely to work. We need a significant Tech (or UU) advantage, and we need an economy that can support a decent size army without going broke. I think we can start with Praets, and then continue with Praets + Cats. If all civs are actually accessible, I think we beeline Guilds after Construction and get Knights out there killing Archers.

It probably won't be that easy, but I think we have to assume that Conquest is possible until we have proven otherwise.

Game Length

It's easy to forget how big of a difference 'No Tech Trading' makes. I'm sure these teams could probably post 1400 AD Space games with no restrictions. However, if you turn off tech trading and limit empire size to 10 or 11 cities, I have to believe it's going to be more like 1800 AD. And, of course, if we need paratroopers, Conquest won't be much faster. That means a looooong game, and it also means we're going to have to play faster than we have in the past.

Final Thoughts

'Mids or Monarchy or Both?
We could avoid the need to tech to Monarchy by building 'Mids. However, that leaves us unable to improve all that wine, and hopefully get some resource trades. If we have 'Mids we could also run Rep. The +3 happy would be enough for a while.

Conquered Cities
Is the distance too much? I could maybe see keeping Carthage, especially with the gold there. Others would seem to be even further away. Are they worth it?

Bureaucracy
This is extremely critical in this game, but CS is pretty far away when we have to tech everything ourselves.

Barb Cities
Are they more or less prevalent on Raging Barbs? I'm thinking it could be cheaper to let them build cities for us. On the other hand, Imperialistic makes settlers cheaper, so maybe not.

Great People
GSpy - how many techs could we backfill through theft? I have no idea.
GE - quick wonder
GM - settled or trade mission, good for accelerated research
GS - one tech, probably better for Golden Age
GA - only likely to pick up the Music GA, also for Golden Age
GP - shrine if we actually have a holy city

Our UB is the Forum (Market), which increases GP points 25%. Given the scenario, I would say Currency is less of a priority, but because of the Forum I would say it's still a pretty high priority.

 

[enKage]

More or less I agree, but I would not force Mids so much. HRule is really strong and I dont think Mids pays off (or meybe in terms of Police State. Anyway, I dont think Mids should be prioritised in any way.

In terms of Wonders, I think we need Parthenon. Because Rome would have quite a lot of GPP from Wonders, any increase is nice.

We would probably want to chop MoM somewhere outside because too much artist pollution is not nice