SGOTM 22 - Fifth Element

[enKage]

Anyway, first we have to decide whether to go GWall and where/when.

Oracle seems to be lost, because of Hanni plainhill marble (he doesnt have masonry though).
Just to remind SGOTM19, Inca with similar start position got Oracle even on t10.

SGOTM 19 also was the last game we built GWall. However there is a huge difference: barbs started with BW and Feudalism, but there was no raging barbs. We had copper there, here we can have horses.

The difference between raging barbs on Monarch and empowered barbs on Immortal is that still immortal lakes is tougher. Remember also:
1) barbs wil send only warriors for some time, so not a powerful unit even if enters our land
2) Raging barbs means also higher probability to settle barb city. As soon as they settle, they stop spawning in the area, they just construct units in cities. Because of that I wouldnt expect the endless horde of them. I just mention this because GWall = 3rd city and 1 tech other than masonry

 

[zbgayumn]

I just mention this because GWall = 3rd city and 1 tech other than masonry

That's probably not quite true because of the 4 6 chariots we have to build before we can settle a 3rd city. Practically speaking, it's more like 6 chariots so that we can escort the settler and protect the other city.

If we don't have copper in our borders, but it's nearby, it might be better to prioritize the 3rd city. We can still make the decision at that point, right?

 

[pigswill]

Third city is Rome pop 6, 6 units(no warriors) and 3 buildings so third city won't be super early.

Barbs are certainly manageable but they're a pain in the neck, will spring up unexpectedly and means having barb hunters dotted around our empire to cut down on pillaging. Gwall means we can forget about barbs completely and focus on conquest.

 

[zbgayumn]

All right, what happened?

It's been almost two days since the last post.

@pigswill - I'm still not quite sure if I should continue until the worker is ready or not. Do you want to take over here or at T24?

 

[unclethrill]

Sorry guys. I am weighing job offers for an international move back to the US with a family of 6. Some days I have lots of time and some weeks I have none.

 

[zbgayumn]

Well, don't take me too seriously. RL obviously takes precedence. Mine just happens to be fairly quiet right now.

 

[pigswill]

We're still waiting a team decision on Gwall. if we're going Gwall first then the sooner we start masonry the sooner we can start to build it. As has happened in previous sgotms enKage and I are deadlocked and no-one else has really expressed an opinion.

edit: A delay at this point may not be a bad thing. Having tried a couple of playthroughs I've come to the conclusion that horse city has limited potential, any site that has horses in first ring has limited food and therefore limited growth (plains corn + plains or ghills). In a normal rex game that's not a problem: short term city for immediate benefits and forget the long term. If we're going for HA rush that still applies, however if we're going elepult we don't need horses any time soon (particularly if we get Gwall) and we could consider ivory/cow cty to north east, a slow starter but a lot more long term potential.

 

[unclethrill]

My vote is for getting the GW all sooner than later. Just dealing with pillaging will more than make up for the cost long term

 

[enKage]

@unclethrill
What you mean "sooner than later". Just straight in 1 city?

@pigswill
please submitt you save extended to t60 so we can see how much we can backfill later 2nd city founding

@The rest
Please say anything

 

[zbgayumn]

Pigswill has a fair point about the horse city. We could just research archery instead of using chariots for the units in Rome. Although, we don't really need elephants this early either. It would be nice for the extra [emoji3] , but we could also just go back to 1N of the starting spot.

Wherever we settle, I want the settler out on or around t41. I know it gets a little dicey when GWall isn't up until t60, but I'm convinced we can handle it. Especially if we get a couple archers built.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Good debate folks, zbg has a point about progress but we're at a critical point. I think GWall can wait for 2nd city but I'm not keen for it to be any later. Need to agree on 2nd city, elepults have a longer time frame where they are effective so that option is quite attractive.

 

[unclethrill]

I dont have a problem if the Gwall follows the second city but I think it needs to be a priority and for sure before a third.

 

[enKage]

But then we are forced into archery, which we could sucesfully skip.

Anyway. I am for skipping even Great Wall, and for sure settling 2nd city first.

OK
pigswill - GWall before 2nd city
me - 2nd city first, then maybe GWall
zbg, unclethrill, NZ - 2nd city first, then GW.

Anyway, we can continue till turn 40 when we can have settler ready, then decide where to settle. I think it is overvoted

Techpath changes if we dont want horse city second. Originaly I went sailing - wheel - BW till 1 turn left - masonry. In case we dont settle for horses, we have to insert archery (preferably after BW if no copper and before masonry. If we got copper, we can skip archery.

I think wheel 3rd is a must because 1) our worker would be idle 2) we need roads to move forces faster

Agreed?

 

[zbgayumn]

Ok, so there's a majority for building Great Wall after a Settler. From what I recall from testing, t41 is the benchmark for the Settler and t60 is the benchmark for GW.

Next on the agenda: Where to settle?

These are the 3 that we've talked about recently.

Horse city
Obvious advantage in providing what is in my view the most important of all the strategic resources. Disadvantage: The city can't grow much bigger than 5 or 6 pop, which means it's pretty weak in the long term.

Elephant/Cow city
Advantage: +1 happy, eventual access to elephants
Disadvantage: Construction is a long way off. Even then, elephants are no better than Praets.

Pig/Banana city
Advantage: Closer for less maintenance. Can use Pig while Rome is close to happy cap and rely on Banana + farms later on.
Disadvantage: No visible strategic resource.

The decision could affect the tech path, so we probably do need to figure it out sooner than later. Personally, I think the elephants can be saved for the the 3rd or even 4th city. I'm still kind of torn about getting the horses. One reason I originally put the city 1N of there is that you pick up two grassland tiles you can farm. I'm leaning toward the horses for city 2. For a while at least it will be happy-capped at 5 anyway. If we have to go late into the game we could windmill all those hills to get some growth.

 

[enKage]

I like horses most, and the only thing that can change this is those unfogged tile north of it. Can be settled t43. Though small, it can be very efficient unts pumper by whipping (the smaller city the more efficient whipping) and has enough forest to chop the wonder we dont want in capitol because of possible artist pollution (parthenon or MoM).
We will get -3 gpt for it.

Orange is a mistake. No food in first ring and the gap between the cities allowing barb spawning there. + no fresh water coupled with jungle and killing nice site 2S of it. Available also t43. Probably also -3gpt

Yellow is also placed badly. It is on northern bank river, so we dont get defense bonus when barbs come from north. We dont need banana in 1st ring. Yellow should be 1S, so it can work 2 mines, have no jungle, river crossing penalty for northern barbs, possibility of developing 1 cottage and borrowing food from capitol. That city can develop to ultraproduction city in long term. 1S also gives better chance of getting copper as there are more unforest tiles in its 1st ring
OTOH yellow can be settled t40, 1S of it t41. Both probably -1 gpt

---

I am for horses, otherwise - 1S from yellow. Extreme strong veto about any kind of settling pairing both cows and ivory - we are unable to do it with food in 1st ring

 

[zbgayumn]

Techpath changes if we dont want horse city second. Originaly I went sailing - wheel - BW till 1 turn left - masonry. In case we dont settle for horses, we have to insert archery (preferably after BW if no copper and before masonry. If we got copper, we can skip archery.

I think wheel 3rd is a must because 1) our worker would be idle 2) we need roads to move forces faster

Agreed?

Agreed.
I can live with moving yellow 1S, too.

If we go for horse city: Sailing -> Wheel -> 90% of BW (finish after t43) -> Masonry
If we go for yellow city: Sailing -> Wheel -> BW (not before t41) -> Archery -> Masonry

 

[pigswill]

Current blue site remains horrible because of food situation. there's one 4f tile, the rest are all 1F except for coastal so its growth stunted and a poor candidate for whipping because of slow regrowth (4fpt 1>2, 3fpt 2>3, 2fpt 3>4). Its only benefit is early access to horses. On the other hand if we get Gwall we don't need early access to horses.

Its not quite so bad if it goes 1N onto plains hill: corn in first ring, 2 farmable grasslands in second ring. But still not a great site.

If we have iron available then we don't need ivory, on the other hand we don't need horses either until miltrad which remains a distant objective.

One thing we do need is commerce. Tech trading is out so maybe we need an early commerce city which probably means riverside cottages while keeping Rome as main production site in the short/medium term.

Tech priorities remains interesting, it will be difficult to get Rome to pop 8 for four cities without HR, we won't find iron without IW, neither of these open up early wonders.

 

[zbgayumn]

So, pigswill doesn't like blue, and enKage doesn't like orange. And it seems that we are all ok with yellow (or 1S of yellow), but not super excited about it.

I would be willing to bet that we find either copper or iron at the yellow site, so I'm thinking maybe that's the answer.

There might be a better option for the horse city, especially if we settle it a little later. If you go 3E1S of the blue site, I'm pretty sure there's crab off of that little jut in the coast. With another food source and a river, it makes more of a commerce city with middling production.

 

[enKage]

If we agree we dont need horses ASAP, it is ok to move the city somewhere around.

BUT it likely forces us to tech archery. It is not a big gamble, cause it is only few turns, but still. OTOH archery would be repayed by lower maintanace and the only cost would be having pottery/writing slightly later.

If anyone is OK with a compromise yellow/preferably 1S, we can move forward

BTW I smell copper 1SE from pigs or 1N from fish

 

[pigswill]

I reckon we probably will end up with a compromise city somewhere around yellow, depending on amount of overlap desired.. Had a look at enKage's first city save (?#179) and it looks like there aren't four units in Rome the turn the city is founded so we need to be mindful of this in the real game at the expense of escorts/spawnbusters.