SGOTM 22 - Xteam

In 1480bc, Caesar's decree is accepted by the Senate, Slavery is now the law of the land. The non citizens try to revolt at this idea but the rebellion is put down by 1440bc.

In 1440 representatives from the land of Ethiopia enter into a treaty with Caesar that allow both nations to freely travel through the others land. Also, in the Wine region northeast of Caput Mundi, a couple of Centuriones, discuss the rumor that Caesar may gift the town they are stationed in to Saladin and they bet a case of Frascati wine on which of them will be the quicker in whipping a manipuli of Archers into shape.

Lumberjacks having heard the same rumor, begin chopping the forests west of Rome.

1400bc arrives and a Centurio (having packed a case of Frascati wine) leads his manipuli of out of Rome toward Caput Mundi. Another Archer manipuli follows(1360bc) lead by the Centurio who lost the bet.

1360bc, the lumberjacks have found customers, citizens upset by the rumored gifting of Rome. The citizens buy the wood so they may construct wagons to move their belongs elsewhere. The lumberjacks, with customers demanding more wood, move into the forests north of Rome.
In Caput Mundi citizens are whipped into the forests to cut down trees do be used in the construction of the Great Lighthouse

In 1200bc the lumberjacks of Rome provide the extra wood the citizens need to finish their wagons. Not satisfied at the delays in departure (it is now 1060bc) these citizens whip anyone and everyone to get the wagons loaded. Also, the lumberjacks have moved to cut the forest NE of Rome.

Finally in 1120 bc, the citizens are ready to leave Rome in search of new land to settle. These citizens left so much behind in their rush to leave that an enterprising Centurio is able to complete a manipuli of Archers and they will be ready to leave Rome in 1080bc.

MCXX the scholars of Caput Mundi have learned how to write.

Some of these scholars wonder how they can write without knowing the Alphabet.
Other scholars respond that writing is a gift from the gods and they should study Mysticism to find out why they know how to write.
The practical scholars bemoan the fact that they do not know the secrets of Iron because they want to pound :hammer: some sense into the other scholars.

In all of the excitement it escaped notice that our warrior wandering around in the NE found the border to Hannibal's territory.

Spoiler :


Here is the autolog:
Spoiler :
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
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Turn 63/500 (1480 BC) [07-Oct-2015 15:23:10]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 0 per turn
100% Gold: 0 per turn, 9 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Julius Caesar(Rome) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 64/500 (1440 BC) [07-Oct-2015 15:27:52]
Diplomacy: Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia) offers to trade Open Borders to Julius Caesar (Rome) for Open Borders
Diplomacy: Julius Caesar (Rome) accepts trade of Open Borders to Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia) for Open Borders
Rome begins: Archer (7 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 17 per turn, 9 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Rome
Rome finishes: Archer

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Saladin (Arabia) towards Hannibal (Carthage), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 65/500 (1400 BC) [07-Oct-2015 15:31:50]
Caput Mundi begins: Worker (7 turns)
Rome begins: Archer (7 turns)
100% Research: 19 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -2 per turn, 28 in the bank

After End Turn:
Rome finishes: Archer

Turn 66/500 (1360 BC) [07-Oct-2015 15:34:30]
Rome begins: Settler (15 turns)
100% Research: 17 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -2 per turn, 26 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Caput Mundi
Caput Mundi finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Saladin (Arabia) towards Darius I (Persia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Saladin (Arabia) towards Hannibal (Carthage), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 67/500 (1320 BC) [07-Oct-2015 15:39:05]
Rome begins: Archer (7 turns)
100% Research: 17 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -2 per turn, 24 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Confucianism founded in a distant land

Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) [07-Oct-2015 15:44:16]
100% Research: 17 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -2 per turn, 22 in the bank

After End Turn:
Caput Mundi grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Darius I (Persia) from 'no State Religion' to 'Confucianism'
Attitude Change: Darius I (Persia) towards Saladin (Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Gilgamesh(Sumeria) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 69/500 (1240 BC) [07-Oct-2015 15:47:52]
Player Comment scount nw nw
Player Comment see hannibal's border
100% Research: 16 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -2 per turn, 20 in the bank

After End Turn:
Rome grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Gilgamesh (Sumeria) from 'no State Religion' to 'Buddhism'
Attitude Change: Gilgamesh (Sumeria) towards Darius I (Persia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 70/500 (1200 BC) [07-Oct-2015 15:51:28]
A Mine was built near Caput Mundi
Rome begins: Settler (6 turns)
Rome begins: Settler (6 turns)
100% Research: 17 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -2 per turn, 18 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Saladin (Arabia) towards Hannibal (Carthage), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 71/500 (1160 BC) [07-Oct-2015 15:53:21]
Rome begins: Archer (4 turns)
Rome begins: Settler (2 turns)
100% Research: 17 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -2 per turn, 16 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Rome
Tech research finished: Writing
Rome finishes: Settler

Turn 72/500 (1120 BC) [07-Oct-2015 15:58:56]
Research begun: Mysticism (3 Turns)


Game was paused at beginning of turn. No pieces were moved.
Link to Saved Game:http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG022_BC1120_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
Looks good Joe!

Will be home and try to get a look at the save late tomorrow!
 
Nicely done Joe, great report!

Agree with Htadus that we should OB and just gift the city now.... this turn. Several of the AI already refuse to take it. The Archers will be required to move there immediately to defend it. If Saladin can send units to defend it he will, but they will take a while, if he can't we will be defending it for a while. The last thing we need is a barb city on our doorstep.

Also agree IW or Alpha should be next, but only if we do not need our next city to pop borders (with a monument).

I still do not agree with either a Cows or Horses city next. Neither city can be effective without a border pop and we will struggle to keep them connected.
Gems & Deer offers immediate health & happy in its inner ring, as well as enough grass tiles to be decent.


edit: and I don't think we want those 2 workers, we already have 3... for 1 city and theres a lot of jungle to walk them through. Hannibal also has 3 friends, so its a permanent diplo hit from 4 of the AI.

edit2: Why not alpha next, we could start stealing techs assuming we get a great spy
 
Nicely done Joe, great report!

Agree with Htadus that we should OB and just gift the city now.... this turn. Several of the AI already refuse to take it. The Archers will be required to move there immediately to defend it. If Saladin can send units to defend it he will, but they will take a while, if he can't we will be defending it for a while. The last thing we need is a barb city on our doorstep.

Also agree IW or Alpha should be next, but only if we do not need our next city to pop borders (with a monument).

I still do not agree with either a Cows or Horses city next. Neither city can be effective without a border pop and we will struggle to keep them connected.
Gems & Deer offers immediate health & happy in its inner ring, as well as enough grass tiles to be decent.


edit: and I don't think we want those 2 workers, we already have 3... for 1 city and theres a lot of jungle to walk them through. Hannibal also has 3 friends, so its a permanent diplo hit from 4 of the AI.

edit2: Why not alpha next, we could start stealing techs assuming we get a great spy
We need to wait at least 2 turns before gifting, settler is built and the overflow is enough to build an archer.

I have run a few tests out to 100bc (really sloppy MM). I went with Alpha->Mysticism->Math->Calendar. I tested getting a great Spy (81% chance) and then retested if I got a Great Merchant (19% chance). Great Spy I sent to Rome and took the EP points. In the Great Merchant test, GM ran to Rome for "cheap" trade mission that yielded a little more than 900 gold. The gold let me run 90% science and 10% espionage for a long time.
With the Spy I got IW and stole my way to Monarchy. Learned Math and was working on Calandar when I quit.
With the Merchant I got IW and was working towards Monarchy.

I think we should learn Mysticism next. I then prefer Alphabet and stealing IW.

I should have a new test game up this weekend as soon as I finish moving AI borders to conform with what was revealed in real game.
 
Is it worth risking the entire gifting plan for 25:hammers:???
 
Is it worth risking the entire gifting plan for 25:hammers:???
Good question. Any way to estimate the probability that 1 more turn will foil us? In any event, concur that archers should start moving there this turn.

Joe, what is the plan for finishing the GLH? Consider whether whipping a granary to finish it may be optimal.
 
I think we should learn Mysticism next. I then prefer Alphabet and stealing IW.
The issue I have with this is that it is predicated upon getting a Great Spy.

There are some nice city spots to the north but they require that we have IW to chop the jungle. Without IW, they are worthless.

City sites to the east are nice, but they are distant and will be difficult to support should anything go wrong. Just cannot see delaying IW that long. We need the commerce to fire research and we need the Ivory for War Elephants and we need IW to locate the Iron, if there is any.
 
I do not have time tonight but there are a few points that we need to discuss in depth before we continue. But what we do know is that we have to gift now. No waiting.

We need to test the next tech path. I have time in the morning to run some tests. Joe, do you have your test save from T69-71? Just one of them.

@Neal,

We can keep our cities connected as long as the roads do not go through the gifted city. Barbs do not raze roads out side of culture boundaries. They like highways too.
 
Sorry for going AWOL for a few days....

Points for discussion/testing:
- should we gift a city at all
- should we gift Rome now, and not before we build enough archers to found another
- where will we settle our settler once we get enough archers
- should we keep Rome, build 6 archers and gift a city 3
- if yes, where do we put the new city to be gifted
 
Points for discussion/testing:
- should we gift a city at all
- should we gift Rome now, and not before we build enough archers to found another
- where will we settle our settler once we get enough archers
- should we keep Rome, build 6 archers and gift a city 3
- if yes, where do we put the new city to be gifted
And then there is tech path to consider? Although, future city location may affect that decision?
 
Based on what the testers are saying, waiting for city 3 seems not very doable.

I like the idea of gifting Rome, it is very close, and easy/cheap to steal from. Those 2 barbs will attack immediately on gifting however, so at least 1 more archer is required imo.

I like IW next so we can develop an Elephant site.
 
Now I understand a bit better! Once the AI have 4 cities total, they will no longer accept the gift city. The real game must have better dirt overall, because they are definitely expanding faster

We really need at least 1 more archer from Rome imo.

Tech path needs to be Myst > IW > Alphabet, so we can pop borders and develop a city to the N-NW of Rome gaining Elephants and Sugar along with the 2 Bananas.
 
Now I understand a bit better! Once the AI have 4 cities total, they will no longer accept the gift city. The real game must have better dirt overall, because they are definitely expanding faster Saladin is definitely learning techs faster. I checked diplo in real game and Sal has 3 cities which the test game reflects but I did not give him Monarchy.

We really need at least 1 more archer from Rome imo. Rome builds an archer this turn.

Tech path needs to be Myst > IW > Alphabet, so we can pop borders and develop a city to the N-NW of Rome gaining Elephants and Sugar along with the 2 Bananas.

I agree that we need Myst as next tech to pop borders.

Is this the spot you are referring to Ronnie?
Spoiler :

I like it for our next city. Workers can road to the bananas making it possible to settle without an archer escort.
 
That is indeed the spot I was referring to.
 
I like that spot too, a lot, but we don't necessarily need Myst, that city could build a library. We have a grass hill already in our empire due to the capitals culture, so a worker can mine it before we even build the city. Having said that Myst is cheap, and a monument would be built fast working a mine.

I am having doubts about Saladin, he obviously got Monarchy from Oracle, and he was probably gifted Priesthood to start with. Darius however teched to CoL by himself, so might be a better candidate to gift Rome to.

Also coming around to the idea of getting that Archer from Rome... its only 1t.

Will put some testing in tonight or tomorrow.
 
I like that spot too, a lot, but we don't necessarily need Myst, that city could build a library. We have a grass hill already in our empire due to the capitals culture, so a worker can mine it before we even build the city. Having said that Myst is cheap, and a monument would be built fast working a mine.

I am having doubts about Saladin, he obviously got Monarchy from Oracle, and he was probably gifted Priesthood to start with. Darius however teched to CoL by himself, so might be a better candidate to gift Rome to. All the AIs where given Priesthood. Darius only need to learned Writing before teching COL. With Sal we can steal out way to Monarchy. Also, in my test games Sal has sent missionaries to our cities

Also coming around to the idea of getting that Archer from Rome... its only 1t.

Will put some testing in tonight or tomorrow.
With Myst that city could have a border pop less than 20 turns after being built.

I am running tests out to 50bc settling that city first and gems deer second. I am trying Myst->IW->Alpha vs Myst->Alpha->Math
 
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