SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants

[LowtherCastle]

Hatty is teching like a bat out of hell. About 50-60bpt without the tech bonus. She has all of the initial techs, including religious, except Hunting. She's running Representation and OrgRel. She'll probably tech IW soon, since she has no strategic resource. She'll get Feudalism before we know it. But we have a choice, capture or steal techs.

If we settle HagIft nearby with Christianity and our 50% culture bonus, it costs us about 1/3 the tech cost. Better to steal techs or grab her cities asap? Or both?

 

[WastinTime]

Assuming we're on the same landmass, we should be able to gift her a city pretty easily. Even after she has 4+ cities.

This could be a good reason to go for Fred and maybe even Alex first. Get a few more good steals and then take Egypt closer to the time we really need to capture those 2 wonders (~T105)

For now. put all EPs on Hatty

 

[Mitchum]

In 2 turns, Paris borders cover the fish. (or 3 turns w/ anarchy)

Oh yes, I forgot about that detail.

Can we decide whether or not to settle Fredburg? That seems to be the only outstanding issue.

WT - No way (and he's not waffling either)
ZPV - Yes
Mitchum - either way
LC?
Pollina?

I guess we also have to decide on HBR next but I didn't see any strong arguments against it after LC's arguments for it...

EDIT: xpost

 

[Mitchum]

If we settle HagIft nearby with Christianity and our 50% culture bonus, it costs us about 1/3 the tech cost. Better to steal techs or grab her cities asap? Or both?

If we settle HagIft, spread Christianity there and switch to Christianity, what happens when we give the city away? Do we stay in Christianity or do we go back to no religion when we no longer own any Christian cities?

 

[Mitchum]

How many negmods are we going to get on Writing?

Gift to - Doesn't like gift
==============
Stalin - Darius
Gandhi - Mehmed
Gandhi - Mao
Gandhi - Sal
Mehmed - Gandhi
Alex - Hatty
Hatty - Alex
Hatty - Joao

Do we care?

I don't think we care if we piss off Mehed, Mao, Hatty or Alex? Making Darius, Sal, Gandhi and Joao mad may hurt if we want them to be trade partners.

Stalin looks to have weak land and is stingy with tech trading anyway so maybe we don't give him Writing.

Mehmed and Alex are also stingy (WFYABTA kicks in at 8 techs) so we can skip them too if we want.

I do want to give Writing to Gandhi (makes Sal mad) and Hatty (makes Joao mad). If we're going to steal from Hatty, we don't want her to waste a single turn researching a tech we already have. We could even give her Alphabet for all I care.

What do others think? Should we just give it to the AIs we care about first so that when we give it to those we don't care about it's value is lessened and we'll take less of a neg mod for it?

 

[ZPV]

I think I'd hold off on giving Writing to Alex (presuming we're going to invade him before he gets LBows).

I'm probably on the invade Hatty side of the invade/steal question. We have tech trading for the small techs, and I don't really want to have the option of stealing MilTrad or Rifling...

 

[WastinTime]

I'm probably on the invade Hatty side of the invade/steal question. We have tech trading for the small techs, and I don't really want to have the option of stealing MilTrad or Rifling...

I was just thinking we'd steal things like MetalCasting, CoL, Calendar, etc. early-ish stuff and still conquer her before t110. We will likely have to research all of those ourselves unless we steal from someone...or get the tech in a peace deal . We can't wait around for "most" of the AI to get Metal Casting, etc. so they'll freely trade it.

 

[WastinTime]

If we settle HagIft, spread Christianity there and switch to Christianity, what happens when we give the city away? Do we stay in Christianity or do we go back to no religion when we no longer own any Christian cities?

we stay christian

 

[LowtherCastle]

I was just thinking we'd steal things like MetalCasting, CoL, Calendar, etc. early-ish stuff and still conquer her before t110. We will likely have to research all of those ourselves unless we steal from someone...or get the tech in a peace deal . We can't wait around for "most" of the AI to get Metal Casting, etc. so they'll freely trade it.

At 70bpt, Hatty could tech IW+MOnarchy+Feud, for example, by T75. (Calced using our tech costs, not hers.) By T110, more like what ZPV said. I think Hatty is the reason BSP gave us the 1-vassal-or-permanent-ally rule. Let us pray she doesn't beeline Feudalism.

Also, we should send our scouting warrior straight through Sal to scout Hatty's lands for any strategic resource tiles and deny her iron as soon as possible. Send a chariot on the first galley for that purpose.

~~~

Not sure how much it's worth it to steal from Hatty, we'll see. Set-up costs are a settler+spy, at least 5t in advance, preferably more to grow it to pop2 without using our wheat. Plus wasting Jesus and a 1t revolt. (We'll want to gift, steal and re-capture on T0, rinse, repeat, because she's creative.) Plus my prior calcs were off. It's 33%*1.2 = 40% of the tech cost. Plus, *1.15 if we don't revolt to Christ = 46%.

Still a decent deal but only twice faster than teching it ourselves for techs we might get for free later. Meanwhile, capturing it triples our tech rate.

 

[Mitchum]

I was just thinking we'd steal things like MetalCasting, CoL, Calendar, etc. early-ish stuff and still conquer her before t110. We will likely have to research all of those ourselves unless we steal from someone...or get the tech in a peace deal . We can't wait around for "most" of the AI to get Metal Casting, etc. so they'll freely trade it.

I like this plan (originally floated by LC). Even if we go for an all-out HA rush, it's going to be many turns before we're actually on the shores of Egypt (T110 per WT). With Hatty's current tech rate, there are going to be many things that we could steal from her that will take forever to get from her in trade. I think we should give her everything, including Alphabet. Any beaker she invests is a tech we already have is wasted, right? We can harness the tech power of to Civs if we play this right.

So, I change my answer on which cities to settle. I suggest that we settle NorthCows and HaGift (HagIft) and let Fred settle Fredburg for us. Now that we're not tied to building the GLH, StoneCity can take some of the burden off Paris and help with a settler and/or war ramp up. It's too bad that we'd be losing ~6 turns in when we could have settled NorthCows but those lost turns are a sunk cost at this point.

So, where do we plant HaGift? Can NorthCows be HaGift?

xpost with LC.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@Mitchum

1. Hatty already has Writing and we're not in any hurry to speed her up. The opposite if anything, e.g., put eps on her.
2. I'm for not settling Fredburg. I agree with ZPV's and your argument. Just don't want to build another settler. Settle Cows-E, although using it to settle Stone CIty is also an option, especially if we want to delay the last settler in order to not whip Paris below pop5. I'd probably favor that.
3. Scout. I'd continue trying to see if there's a non-jungle path eastward. If not, hm..., at least defog Gandhi south for the coastal pathway. Then probably wait for help. We need to find AI #12 and the Orient.
4. I guess Jesus defogs Sal next. Later via galley to Alex.
5. I'll go with your judgment on gifting Writing.

Is Mecca a 2c or 3c TR?

xpost backachya

 

[Mitchum]

After reading LC's post, I guess we need to decide on whether or not we want to steal from Hatty now before we gift her a bunch of techs. If we decided not to steal from her, gifting anything will only speed up her tech rate and make the odds of us facing LBs that much higher.

Since number of turns is the key measuring stick, if 100H for a settler, Jesus, a spy and 1 turn of revolt shave a handful of turns off our research path, it will be worth it, right? I know that we'll get IW in a reasonable time but I doubt we'll get CoL, MC or Monarchy any time soon from the rest of these Monarch AIs. We'll likely have to self tech them unless we get them from Hatty some way.

EDIT: Another xpost.

 

[LowtherCastle]

There's one more benefit of tech stealing: getting the tech sooner. If we steal Math sooner than we'd tech it and then trade it around, that might have a significant effect on how soon we get Calendar in trade. Plus Math would give us the bonus on Currency.

The big drawback to counting on tech stealing from Hatty is not knowing what she's going to tech. For instance, who wants to steal Monarchy-Feudalism? But she's teching so fast right now, we can just watch and get an idea of where's she's going.

 

[Mitchum]

1. Hatty already has Writing and we're not in any hurry to speed her up. The opposite if anything, e.g., put eps on her.

EPs put on Hatty so I don't forget. I just hope I start from the correct save this time. Hatty also knows Joao, Sal and Alex so hopefully she doesn't put too many EPs on us.

2. I'm for not settling Fredburg. I agree with ZPV's and your argument. Just don't want to build another settler. Settle Cows-E, although using it to settle Stone CIty is also an option, especially if we want to delay the last settler in order to not whip Paris below pop5. I'd probably favor that.

Yes, this is a good option and is by far the best city spot we have. It takes 5 turns for our settler to get to StoneCity and the city can be settled in 6 turns. Is it worth it to try to chop the forest there? If we do it, chopping it in 5 turns allows the city to be founded 1 turn sooner.

3. Scout. I'd continue trying to see if there's a non-jungle path eastward. If not, hm..., at least defog Gandhi south for the coastal pathway. Then probably wait for help. We need to find AI #12 and the Orient.

By non-jungle path eastward, do you mean going NW to Persia and then east because there is no non-jungle path north or east out of India. The further north we go, the less chance for jungle... but there could be forests.

4. I guess Jesus defogs Sal next. Later via galley to Alex.

Sal? Did you mean Joao? Getting all the way to Sal would have us walking through dangerous territory and even has us going through German culture which may not even be possible unless it's timed with a worker steal.

5. I'll go with your judgment on gifting Writing.

OK, I'll gift it to Gandhi, Joao, Churchill and Darius. That means that we won't be giving it to Hatty, Sal or Mao (they already have it) or Fred, Mehmed, Stalin or Alex. Cool?

Is Mecca a 2c or 3c TR?

London gives a 3C TR in Paris and Mecca gives a 2C TR in FurCity.

 

[Mitchum]

But she's teching so fast right now, we can just watch and get an idea of where's she's going.

It will take 85 EPs right now to get eyes on her research. If she puts any EPs on us, it's only going to get higher. Without running the EP slider, it won't be until T70 at the absolute soonest that we can see her research. Not sure if that affects anything or not.

 

[LowtherCastle]

After reading LC's post, I guess we need to decide on whether or not we want to steal from Hatty now before we gift her a bunch of techs.

Updated the post above, Mitchum.

I'd say not gift her any more techs. I don't think any other team will outplay us by keeping Hatty alive as a trading partner. Early Pyramids for free alone is huge in this game. Add GLib+academy+settled sci (or two academies) and it's a game-breaker. Anyway, Hunting for her is 1t and I doubt she'll tech Alphabet. She's got other plans. She seems to be on a religious bent, teching Medit+Poly+Phood+Mono.

xpost

 

[LowtherCastle]

Yes, this is a good option and is by far the best city spot we have. It takes 5 turns for our settler to get to StoneCity and the city can be settled in 6 turns. Is it worth it to try to chop the forest there? If we do it, chopping it in 5 turns allows the city to be founded 1 turn sooner.

I'd chop the forest no matter what. Only delays our current settler 1t. But I wouldn't do that unless the MM is right and others agree. Last-minute idea.

By non-jungle path eastward, do you mean going NW to Persia and then east because there is no non-jungle path north or east out of India. The further north we go, the less chance for jungle... but there could be forests.

No, I meant NE from Gandhi, that is, I can still fog-gaze a tile or two that looks flat. Maybe we'll get lucky and there are more, though unlikely.

Sal? Did you mean Joao? Getting all the way to Sal would have us walking through dangerous territory and even has us going through German culture which may not even be possible unless it's timed with a worker steal.

Jesus to Joao. Sry.

The warrior scout should beeline Hatty via Sal and fogbust all her tiles. Keep an eye on her tech progress and carefully examine for that suspicious hammer from hidden iron.

OK, I'll gift it to Gandhi, Joao, Churchill and Darius. That means that we won't be giving it to Hatty, Sal or Mao (they already have it) or Fred, Mehmed, Stalin or Alex. Cool?

Cool.

London gives a 3C TR in Paris and Mecca gives a 2C TR in FurCity.

= our landmass. Good.

 

[LowtherCastle]

It will take 85 EPs right now to get eyes on her research. If she puts any EPs on us, it's only going to get higher. Without running the EP slider, it won't be until T70 at the absolute soonest that we can see her research. Not sure if that affects anything or not.

After HBR we'd probably run 100% eps on her, if we decide to go that direction. I think we'll know what she's doing soon enough just watching her tech completions. My guess is IW-(Htg-)Monarchy, but they say it's hugely RNG. We'd prefer to see Math next, I think.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Is HBR a mistake?

We could either beeline Currency or accumulate eps on Hatty instead.

If Hatty techs IW-Math-ConstructionOrCalendar, then we'd want to steal them, I guess. HBR doesn't really hurt that. We could go down on Alex or Fred first, if we need to delay our Hatty DoW. Or not delay our Hatty DoW because we can steal techs while at war too.

If Hatty beelines Fedualism, then it's Thank Goodness we teched HBR.

Right?

 

[WastinTime]

I like this plan (originally floated by LC). Even if we go for an all-out HA rush, it's going to be many turns before we're actually on the shores of Egypt (T110 per WT).

to clear up my thoughts: I'd was saying we get hatty's cities (specifically mids/glib) at T110 ... at the latest. I would hope it doesn't take nearly that long if we were to 'go for an all-out rush'. I'd be tempted to take Glib first, much earlier to get a GS or two early. Then maybe let her live depending on her tech choice and rate.

I also don't want to build a special settler for stealing from her. We'll figure something out. Like: gift her Furcity for less than 1t. Recapture. Or gift an alex city in revolt. etc.

I estimate we steal what we can up to and including Feudalism. But we won't have to face a LB. We'll take her last city(s) if we want them (already owning Glib and mids) as soon as she gets feudalism. We can plan our war on her better once we see her tech. Naturally, if she's teching too slow or goes the Music path, etc. then we don't get feudalism from her. We really have no reason to own cities down there unless they have those 2 wonders or are really food-rich.