SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants

[LowtherCastle]

On the turn we complete HG, does the pop get added before city growth might or might not take place (forcing the growth to cost +2f)?

 

[ZPV]

On the turn we complete HG, does the pop get added before city growth might or might not take place (forcing the growth to cost +2f)?

For Thebes and Paris, it's after. For the rest, it's before (+2f for growth, plus an extra citizen which we need to make sure doesn't turn into a non-merchant by setting governor preferences).
We do get GPP for the extra citizen in Thebes if it's a merchant...

 

[ZPV]

Istanbul units sounds good. It'd be nice if conquest didn't end up being the long pole, but it probably is. I certainly won't be upset with a little unit overkill.

Evil mapmaker defense thought...
Let's not vassal anyone before we're 100% sure we can conquer everyone else. Example: we peace vassal Stalin only to find out that someone has some isolated, paratrooper-only city or ice castle. I can't recall...which civs, if any, started with more than 1 city?

I think it was just Hatty and Stalin with multiple cities. I suppose there's 1 unaccounted barb population at the start of the game, which could have been surrounded by mountains and set up to flip to an AI fairly quickly, but that's quite a stretch.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Is Fredburg a better bet for the HE? It can easily be pop11 by T112 and with 8wkshps it produces 48 raw-h per turn during a GA. Berlin isn't as good and competes with Hamburg for tiles. In any case Fredburg can produce 1 knight every 2t.

One non-trivial drawback is that Fredburg is 4 tiles farther west.

 

[LowtherCastle]

What governor preferences do we set, please?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, I think we can replace this:

Birth turn, GPP, City
(re-arranged so HE can go in Berlin)
200 GPP Alexa (approx T105)
T= Golden age
T+ 2 = 300 Alexa GS
T+ 4 = 400 Lisbon (needs some pre-golden age GPP from library) GS
T+ 5 = 500 Thebes GM/GE
T+ 9 = 600 Munich
T+10 = 700 Berlin GM/GA (HE) - for golden age
T+12 = 800 Athens GS+GP (oracle/moai) (for golden age must be <= T+12)
T+13 = 900 Paris
T+14 = 1000 Hamburg
T+16 = 1200 Lisbon
T+17 = 1400 Istanbul
T+19 = 1600 Alexa GS
T+20 = 1800 Thebes GM/GE

with this:

Birth turn, GPP, City
200 GPP Alexa T107
T= Golden age = T112
T+ 3 = 300 Fredburg GS
T+ 4 = 400 Alexa
T+ 5 = 500 Thebes GM/GE
T+ 9 = 600 Munich
T+10 = 700 Berlin GM/GA (HE) - for golden age
T+12 = 800 Athens GS+GP (oracle/moai) (for golden age must be <= T+12)
T+13 = 900 Paris
T+14 = 1000 Hamburg
T+16 = 1200 Lisbon
T+17 = 1400 Istanbul
T+19 = 1600 Alexa GS
T+20 = 1800 Thebes GM/GE

I haven't checked any of WT's work other than Hamburg, Fredburg, and Alexa. T+16 Lisbon must be flexible since it's not producing the first one. We could also flip Thebes and Alexa, I assume. Munich is on for its GP. My basic idea was to replace LIsbon's first GP and free Fredburg to produce knights asap.

 

[WastinTime]

Yea, with Lisbon getting a slow start, we had to swap that out. Looks like Fredburg can handle that.

Munich is back in? can you do it without the 2nd Deer? or are you going to build culture and get the deer?

I need to look closer at the plan later tonight.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Munich does it without the second deer. Hires 5 sci at -2fpt for 9t.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Now that I'm getting close to finished with the PPP, my attention is getting pulled to where I really might prefer to go: Starting our first GA now. The primary reason is warring. If we switch to castes then we can put Darius, Churchill and Gandhi (I think) there. Especially with Darius, one more unit in Persepolis could break our back.

1. We could switch immediately to Islam, giving us the OrgRel bonus on many builds. Switch to Castes as soon as we need to flip Darius.
2. This might get us Banking a turn sooner, haven't checked.
3. We could run our second GA whenever but no matter when we're still getting 250% on gps after we revolt to Pacifism.
4. We could probably get a 3rd GA if really needed.
5. We could build more libraries with the ORgRel bonus.
6. More libraries equals more failgold on NE, which we could plant in some city for a second GP.

Food for thought.

 

[WastinTime]

8 turn GA you realize.

 

[LowtherCastle]

8 turn GA you realize.

Yup..

 

[WastinTime]

Actually, now that (I believe) we decided to do RepParts by hand (skip CS). We have a few extra GP. We certainly could run a 30 turn golden age from now until the end of the game. (8+12+12)

We may even be able to work in a double bulb of Edu.

We have a GS (philo) and a GArt to start the GA. Sux. I'd rather save that Gart.

We'd need 5 GP for golden ages,
5 GMs for RR (technically 1 for Econ + 4 RR)
5 GS for chem, chem, PP, Edu, Edu

This goes to 2200 GPP instead of 1800.
If we 1-bulb Edu, then it's only 2000gpp

------------------------------------
Then there's the option to only run 2 GAs.
We could do something like t102-t109, then
T115-126.
This case only needs the 1600 GPP, but we might have trouble researching by hand without the 3rd GA.

 

[WastinTime]

I suppose the hard part is getting 2 GP to kick off the 2nd GA around T110.

Alexa-GS (200) and Istanbul-NonGS (300) could probably do it, but Istanbul would need Pacifism.
Are we really ready to live without slavery?

 

[ZPV]

What governor preferences do we set, please?

Governor on, with + 1 forced specialist of the chosen type for GP cities.
Emphasize food or GPP depending on the city.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Are we really ready to live without slavery?

Spoiler :

Paris no whips
Thebes HG done T111 w/no whips, 5 plains mines
CEB galley1 2whip(T102), gal2 1whip(T104) if needed
SQ MoM done T111 w/T104 whip or T112 w/o, assuming Islamic spread (likely).
Alexa no whips
Fred no whips
FC 2whip (T103)
Athens Parth  done T111 w/no whips
CC no whips
Munich no whips
Berlin no whips
Hamburg 1whip(T103orT104)
Jerusalem 2whip(T103)
Istanbul 2whip(T104)
Edirne 1whip(T105) <==========
Lisbon no whips

Tricky. If we want 2 revolts, then we need the first on T103, right? That's actually doable, only shorting Istanbul of its instant granary and Edirne of its warrior. Istanbul's granary could be chopped quickly, so that's not catastrophic. The warrior, meh, he's born with sand fleas anyway.

That would delay the Darius DoW by a turn, but that's also not catastrophic, to me anyway.

Notable is that we get Parthenon and HG a turn sooner, T111. MoM can be completed T112 with no whip and the likely Islamic spread on T105 (judging from where Sal's missionaries are). Without spread, MoM can be completed on T112 with an emergency third chop, using the same worker.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Actually, now that (I believe) we decided to do RepParts by hand (skip CS). We have a few extra GP. We certainly could run a 30 turn golden age from now until the end of the game. (8+12+12)

We may even be able to work in a double bulb of Edu.

We have a GS (philo) and a GArt to start the GA. Sux. I'd rather save that Gart.

We'd need 5 GP for golden ages,
5 GMs for RR (technically 1 for Econ + 4 RR)
5 GS for chem, chem, PP, Edu, Edu

This goes to 2200 GPP instead of 1800.
If we 1-bulb Edu, then it's only 2000gpp

------------------------------------
Then there's the option to only run 2 GAs.
We could do something like t102-t109, then
T115-126.
This case only needs the 1600 GPP, but we might have trouble researching by hand without the 3rd GA.

One key feature of the earlier revolt to CS that I forgot to mention is the possibility of getting Philo from Gandhi. Looks like it would cost about 300eps in CEB before the DoW or 375eps after. Worth it?

 

[WastinTime]

The problem is if we don't bulb Philo and take pacifism then it will be hard to get GPs. If we use Istanbul and pacifism it can make a 300 GP and then it won't need a granary any time soon.

 

[ZPV]

I like this triple-golden age idea. Can't analyse it in depth today though.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[WastinTime]

thinking out loud...

GP 200 and 300 are for the 2nd GA. (alex, istanbul)

We need to 2-bulb Chem early so we can start researching Steel.
400, 500 GSs (Alexa, Fred)
600, ThebesGM/GE, 700, 800 would be for the 3rd GA (Athens(GS/GPro), Berlin (pure GArt))

To make sure we don't get two GArts, we would not want MoM in Athens (or we change Berlin, etc.)

Now that we're researching RepParts manually, we need to bulb PPress sooner. No late GSs. Thinking we probably should 1-bulb Edu and Alexa gets PPress.

-----------------
But it sounds like you want OrgRel until T112 instead of Pacifism. Does anyone have suggestions for how that would work? Seems like Thebes would have to do the 300 gpp which would mess up aqu/HG.
I guess the way to do it is to not bulb Philo. Either manual research or steal.
Start the T103 GA with the GS.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Possible solution ideas:
1. Start the GA T104.
2. Early GP in Paris.
3. HE in Fred, Paya in Berlin (180 raw-h w/OR+forge, gold on T106, done T107).
4. Paya in Rostov or other Wonder there and Paya sooner elsewhere.

On warring being our Critical Path: We're leaving a lot of unchopped hammers by leaving Stalin alone. Against mostly flatland cities. Kublai also has tons of forests. Would that make up for chopping Paya in Berlin?