SGOTM 23 - Unusual Suspects

Zhary · Aug 7, 2016

@kcd:
Old plan: Tech steel by bulbingto use against Stalins stack. Use GMs to Bulb our way to Rr. Chemistry is only GS bulb able tech on our path to Rr so do it.
New plan:More need for fast units draft is great so nat. Mom is in Novgorod so 12 turn GA makes Nat beaker even. Lib Rr gives us GS possibility to bulb Pp and edu to so no need to hurry to chem anymore.

Ronnie1 · Aug 7, 2016

Lots of options! Will take a closer look in a few hours.

Deckhand · Aug 7, 2016

nocho said:
Btw, Deckhand, don't see how we can drop off 12 units in England with 3 galleys without risk. After unloading the first time they'd be exposed already wouldn't they? That's assuming we offload next to London.

You are correct, with your assumption.
Too much English culture.

If they start loaded in our controlled sea tile in NW: move one tile and drop off and move back. 4 tiles from London caravels iirc. Reload on turn of drop off /decl. And drop off 6 more. Then Navy is exposed to London's fleet. And army has to march 1 tile to be next to London.

Would probably need to rebuild fleet to capture England's other Island. Hmmn, maybe a ceasefire between islands.

---
edit, meant to include this screenie in first post about Tech path; also Hatty is teching Edu - six turns away

ps Natl also useful for trading with her;

Ronnie1 · Aug 7, 2016

I like Nationalism next for drafting and getting started on Taj.

Let Hatty research Edu and then trade for it so we can get started on Liberalism.

Use the GS on Chemistry now so we can research it later. Once we have Paper, we open other bulbing options.

I don't think we need any more military tech to win, exception maybe for navy to make England capture easier.

Get Hatty to research Banking maybe to open up Econ for the free GM? Not sure if another detour pays off.

kcd_swede · Aug 7, 2016

OK for nationalism for drafting. The Taj should make it break even, and we can always use it for trade bait. :goodjob:

Deckhand · Aug 7, 2016

PPP Turns 140 – ~ 150
Until Russia Dead if a good transfer point
Pause after 5,6 turns; Pause if Unexpected or Need Consultation/Decision; Pause if can bribe AI into war

Do Immediately:
1. Bulb Chemistry (partial) with Great Scientist (a few bulbs more from waiting isn't worth risk of losing possibility)
2. Vassalize Hatty
3. Trade with Hatty: Guilds for Paper and Aesthetics (as soon as she will); gift her Horses, Iron, and other extra resources

Tech: Nationalism;
Hatty – Education (6 turns), Banking

Techs OK (non military, non Liberalism) to sell to AIs: Aesthetics, Literature, Paper , Banking, Printing Press
Techs Not OK to sell to AIs: Civil Service, Philosophy, Education, Engineering, Guilds, Theology, Chemistry

Don't give in to any AI demands (?)

Army Group North: Russia, Mongolia
Army Group South: Persia, divert Armies (Ecbatana & Perseopolis etc) to Russia: Krasnoyarsk & Novgorad
then after Russia conquered, northern group takes North path thru Mongolia while southern group takes southern Mongolia followed by China; and India last
Caravel explore SEA – any Islands for which we need Astronomy?

Spoiler :

possibly Rename some Cities

City Builds and Armies
in general:
only whip where excess food and take workers from unimproved tiles; we want to grow cities to 6+ for Drafting
build knights where stables, build musketeers in other barracks cities, build garrison longbows in cities without barracks
first wave of western units go east; then build force for England

City Builds and suggested renames
Paris - knights...
Bordeaux – knights, Taj Mahal
Le Havre – musketeer, galley
Nice - treb
Athens – treb
Rome – Barracks, Treb
Cologne - Treb
Lisbon – Grocer, galley, National Epic
Berlin – knights, Heroic Epic
Munich – Forge, Courthouse (?) rename Rotterdam
Barcelona – Pike, Musket
Istanbul – Musketeers
Edirne - Forge rename Ankarra
Ankara – Courthouse, caravel, Barracks rename Persian Gulf
Bursa – Granary, longbow rename Baghdad
Pasargadae - Forge rename Karachi
Hamburg – Forge
Persepolis – Forge rename Tehran
Susa - Forge rename Mumbai
Ecbatana – depends on surviving infrastructure, rename Volgograd
Yaroslavl – depends on surviving infrastructure, rename Gdansk
Rostov – depends on surviving infrastructure, rename Warsaw

Questions
Espionage where? Kubla? Mao?
Where doe Literature fit in? Tech Now? Get it from Hatty with another future trade?
Run max great people (with growth) in Lisbon or keep Merchant bulb pure?
What else?
What did I forget?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Future Reference
Golden Ages – as soon as Great Person available or Taj finished – after capturing Novgorad (note, as long as we capture MoM before GA expires, we will get the extra four turns – iirc)

Tech Path to RailRoad:
Chemistry, Banking, Paper, Printing Press, Replaceable Parts, Steam Power, Steel, Railroad

To Liberalism: Paper, Education, Liberalism

Our Tech Path: Nationalism (Build Taj in Bordeaux), Chemistry (finish), Steel, Liberalism (up to 1 turn away), Steam Power, Railroad from Liberalism

Hatty Tech Path: Education, Banking, Printing Press, Replaceable Parts

Tech trades w/ Hatty: Chemistry for Education, Steel for Banking & Printing Press; Nationalism (after Taj built) for Replaceable Parts; Literature and perhaps Theology sometime

Consider whether Economics for GM (money or Golden Age) is worth it at some point?

Civic and Religion switches to be considered when in Golden Age

Conquering Path:
Army Group North: Russia, Mongolia (northern), China (northern)
Army Group South: Persia, divert Armies (Ecbatana & Perseopolis etc) to Russia: Krasnoyarsk & Novgorad; then after Russia conquered, southern Mongolia followed by China (Southern); and India last
new Expeditionary Force: England
Let Hatty fight Arabia for us, if we can direct her to Jerusalem then declare on Arabia after Jerusalem captured

For Churchill – 3 galleys can drop 12 units off before dieing (drop 6, move back, reload, end turn, drop off six more); build 2 galleys (in LeHavre & Lisbon) and move Mediterranean Galley to North Sea
Move Black Sea galley to pick up worker on Spice Island
5 Trebuchets, 3 knights, 2 musketeers, 2 longbows
Suggestion: declare on England about same time as declare on Mongolia

Spoiler :

Deckhand · Aug 7, 2016

Army Group North: Yaroslavl, St Petersburg, Moscow, Yekaterinburg, Finland

Army Group South: Ecbatana, Krasnoyarsky, Novgorad, Yakutsk

Reinforcement new group: Rostov

questions:
Raze any cities? yes - Krasnoyarsky and maybe in Finland
Bypass Russian northern cities and head east? no - get him dead for happiness

nocho · Aug 7, 2016

Green!

Maybe we can beg literature from Hatty? Wasn't it like 3 gold or beakers per turn since knowing the AI?

Maybe EP on Churchill for some city revolts?

Don't remember the Lisbon situation but seem to recall it needs more spec slots. Whip some buildings into NE?

Deckhand · Aug 7, 2016

Lisbon attached
Yeah, once we have Lit - whip Grocery into NE, and also Library

Deckhand · Aug 7, 2016

Note, I have a caravel planned but we can't build them until we learn Compass and Optics. Trade for them at some point. Not a priority - I don't think there are any AI islands that need Astronomy. Still important to explore as soon as convenient.

edit, Espionage - on Mao. He is furthest away. Need 700-900+ for city revolts. We are earning 16/t atm. Even with discounts that's more turns than we have left. I suppose we could use slider (especially when we are done teching). Recommend we use Espionage to know what our future foes are teching. Priority: Mao, Gandhi, Saladin (as likely last to go).

Ronnie1 · Aug 7, 2016

note, as long as we capture MoM before GA expires, we will get the extra four turns – iirc)

I believe this is false. You must own MoM at the start of the GA.

Recommend we use Espionage to know what our future foes are teching. Priority: Mao, Gandhi, Saladin (as likely last to go).

I believe Churchill should be on this list.

Lisbon was planned for merchants so GM could bulb RR, but if we plan on getting RR from Liberalism, then Lisbon should just produce whatever GP's it can and we just run more GA's imo.

Green

Deckhand · Aug 8, 2016

Ronnie1 said:
I believe this is false. You must own MoM at the start of the GA.

You are correct. I tested completing MoM during a GA and no more time was added.

Spoiler :

Also, tested Vassalage for Railroad: still two turns to build in "normal" terrain, but does speed up tundra/desert from three to two.

Zhary · Aug 8, 2016

Green

No nned to keep the GM pure anymore. We will most probable use the GPs for GA so we only have to make sure that they dont have the same type.

Deckhand · Aug 8, 2016

Played 100 years (5 turns)

Will continue tomorrow. Here's the save if anyone wants to examine it.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Unusual_Suspects_SG023_AD0700_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

nocho's spotting of peace vassal possibility was brilliant

Things went quite well and according to plan.
Sold enough techs to speed up Nationalism. Sold resources.
Razed Ecbatana and Krasnoyarsky. Trireme from Krasnoyarsky stopping Istanbul growth. Did a little whipping.
Building some courthouses as we are Organized.

Two minor goofs. Switched Lisbon to a library for a few turns. Planned to whip into NE. But market whippable sooner, so market first. Double clicked on a treb and it went off exploring in other direction.

Gave in to Churchill's demand for Drama this turn. Ten turns of peace and attitude change for a harmless tech.

Turn log:

Spoiler :

I will hunt down autolog and post later

Questions:
Chop Bordeaux forests for Taj?

What to do about Egypt and Jerusalem?
I didn't direct Egypt war effort. Letting her build up and decide for herself. But I think Stalin is too far away. I and think Barbarian border is blocking Egypt from attacking. And concerned she won't go after Jerusalem (not an option to direct her to attack it) while at war with others (which will always be the case

). So, I am wondering if we should send some units to capture Jerusalem to unblock Egypt. But Egypt's help probably won't amount to units used on Jerusalem.
Maybe Rostov's army sh go there next? (and then proceed to India?).
Should I ask Egypt to attack some Russian city?

Deckhand · Aug 8, 2016

Help!
Where is BUFFY Log?
How do I set BUFFY configurations? I thought it was CTRL-O but that just seems to bring up normal Options.

Ronnie1 · Aug 8, 2016

In the Drive>Prog>Firaxis>....Mods>Buffy

Looks good!

Move the LB from Hamburg up to Yaro and cover the treb with the LB that is there. We don't want to lose the treb for no reason.

Use the galley to try and lure the trireme east maybe?

Not to spoil anyones "Little GOTM player" game, but Churchill could be a tough vassal if we leave him for last.

I would take our eastern most army and go straight to Moscow or back east to Mongolia.

Do we know what is in Jerusalem?

nocho · Aug 8, 2016

Looking good! Nice to see HE built already, did you indeed beg Literature, or how did you get that? (edit: nvm, just checked your screenshots

)

Yes to chopping those forests at Bordeaux for Taj. Farm those tiles.

I don't think Hatty will do much at all on the war front, maybe she'll distract about one Arabian unit when we declare on Sal. So Jerusalem is not really much of an issue. Would be nice, but not really worth any effort IMO. The only thing we gain is some food at Athens and Istanbul. On my set there were 6 archers with double promos and 150% defense IIRC. Maybe it serves for Sal to direct his units to while we rampage his homeland (like it happened with Mehmed).

Should switch Lisbon to library and whip into NE soon, followed by grocery same thing.

And do I deserve merit for spotting that Hatty would vassal? If so, switch off that minimize-option as it was the first message that showed up upon loading Ronnie's save (along with all the city builds and the switch to pacifism question :gripe:

).

Ronnie1 · Aug 8, 2016

I certainly deserve NO credit! I went back and looked at my intermediate saves, Hatty would have vassaled 3 turns earlier (540AD). :twitch:

I agree that Hatty won't be of much use on the war front. Only option would be to DOW Sal soon and let her beat up on him for a while. If we keep her with a tech advantage, she might be effective. But AI's are so bad tactically that I don't really think that would work either.

Max hammers in Bordeaux in addition to chopping those forests.

The 2 forests south of Rotterdam are about tome into our culture also and can get chopped.

Forget what I said about our eastern army also, I forgot Novgorod had the MoM, we want that before completing Taj.

Deckhand · Aug 8, 2016

Ronnie1 said:
In the Drive>Prog>Firaxis>....Mods>Buffy

How do I change settings? I don't think I have logging enabled.

Looks good!

Move the LB from Hamburg up to Yaro and cover the treb with the LB that is there. We don't want to lose the treb for no reason.

oops, thanks, don't have save open but will do so if needed

Use the galley to try and lure the trireme east maybe?

yes, I will try that

Not to spoil anyones "Little GOTM player" game, but Churchill could be a tough vassal if we leave him for last.

I thought I was further along. Played some when it was released; not since then; continued today after SG. Still in BCs.

edit, meant to say I'm still thinking about going for domination and then giving all my cities to Deckhand so that he wins

Do we know what is in Jerusalem?

You mean how many defending longbows? multiple Holy City, but I suppose that isn't useful without Shrines. It is keeping us from working 3 seafood currently. We should definitely take it at some point. But I agree we shouldn't let it divert us / slow us down.

nocho said:
Looking good! Nice to see HE built already, did you indeed beg Literature, or how did you get that? (edit: nvm, just checked your screenshots )

dang, you noticed before I could reply

Yes to chopping those forests at Bordeaux for Taj. Farm those tiles.

I don't think Hatty will do much at all on the war front, maybe she'll distract about one Arabian unit when we declare on Sal. So Jerusalem is not really much of an issue. Would be nice, but not really worth any effort IMO. The only thing we gain is some food at Athens and Istanbul. On my set there were 6 archers with double promos and 150% defense IIRC. Maybe it serves for Sal to direct his units to while we rampage his homeland (like it happened with Mehmed).

Agree to wait for now.
:lol:

You think Sal will wait to attack Jerusalem until we attack him? Would be nice if he put some effort into it. :backstab:

Should switch Lisbon to library and whip into NE soon, followed by grocery same thing.

Right now, can 2 whip library for 0 overflow. I just switched back to grocery because it will be ready for an overflow whip sooner.

Ronnie1 said:
I agree that Hatty won't be of much use on the war front. Only option would be to DOW Sal soon and let her beat up on him for a while. If we keep her with a tech advantage, she might be effective. But AI's are so bad tactically that I don't really think that would work either.

We need to be sure we have some defenses on the border before the DoW.

Max hammers in Bordeaux in addition to chopping those forests.

The 2 forests south of Rotterdam are about to be into our culture also and can get chopped.

I've done prechopping some places including those.

You answered my immediate questions. thanks. I will play sometime tonight or tomorrow.

nocho · Aug 9, 2016

I think library is a prereq to NE, so if we want both overflows to go to NE, we should whip library before grocer.

SGOTM 23 - Unusual Suspects

Skalman

Deity

Procrastination at its finest

Attachments

Deity

Jag är Viking!½

Procrastination at its finest

Procrastination at its finest

Deity

Procrastination at its finest

Attachments

Procrastination at its finest

Deity

Procrastination at its finest

Skalman

Procrastination at its finest

Attachments

Procrastination at its finest

Deity

Deity

Deity

Procrastination at its finest

Deity

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