SGOTM 23 - Unusual Suspects

kcd_swede · Aug 2, 2016

Can someone check how much Esp points we need to steal Philo from Hatty? (assume 50% turn bonus, and calc from what the cheapest tech costs to steal). I do not think we have enough Esp for this to be efficient, but I could be wrong.

Do we have anything to trade for philo? Is it still a monopoly tech? Need to answer these before we decide to whip buildings to get a GM, imo.

Need to consider Hatty will take Nat with Lib, reducing our chances at Taj.

GS bulb chemistry is brilliant.

Maoi is worth it if we have stone. Are we also IND then definitely.

I do not think stopping at every 5 turns is needed, just at certain milestones (a tech is learned, a nice trade is available, Stalin's fist, we get dow'd), or something unexpected. But max 10t without pause.

Courts in Ottoman cities sems like a very good idea. We cannot sustain a 2-front war without it.

Barracks, stables, forges, graneries, and a few libraries I am guesing are certain to accelerate our victory. Any other build (beside fighting units) needs to be defended with respect to "how does this accelerate victory).

I am green in principle... just incorporate the comments from the team or explain why not. Then we can go. Conq is not rocket science, after all.

Zhary · Aug 2, 2016

Moai is 125h with stone and the gain is 8h turn ie it is even after only 15 turns. So those stone statues will fly :lol:

For courthouses the gain is less. 120 hammers for 4 gpt it will only be a plus after 30 turns or 60 if 1h=2c. However maintenance will accelerate since we going for conquest and an alternative would be happy archers but then it's better to do a overflow whip from courthouse to archer by the whip many pop at same time principle.

I can do a calculation if the spy is worth it instead of just build it and calculate later.

For GPs GMS is the best alround type since we can choose between trademissions and bulbing depending on our eco in the future so I think I will stick to the market and grocer in Lisbon even if we want Nat or Edu. Since the goal is to work merchants the whip will be done so that it works the 4 seafoods plus merchant.

Ronnie1 · Aug 2, 2016

About Lisbon, why not build pop in anticipation of a switch to Caste System during a GA and then run mass merchants without the investment in the buildings.

How long do you think it will take to complete both buildings?

It seems like 4-5 knights or trebs for use against Hatty might be a better use of the hammers.

The real question is what will be our limiting factor, the completion of our RR or the conquest of the AI.

If we are limited by tech, the buildings make more sense, but if we are limited by conquest, then probably not.

Zhary · Aug 3, 2016

Regarding Lisbon I'm in favour for a caste+paci GA to but it is not in the near future plan. With MoM we could get a 1200 GPP out of Lisbon alone during a GA. But for now I'm counting on the 300 and 400 GPP GM. Then an 120h investment means that we can run merchants that multiply each GP point with 3 and 4 compared to beakers. a single merchant will then be 12s3c and the investment pays back already after 10 turns.

A quick calculation about steal vs. tech philo reveals that tech needs 3 turns @ 100% sciencs while steal it would need 2,2 turns @ 100% spypoints. I don't think its worth it it is not full turnsand its always the risk that the spy will be twarted.

We increase the chance to get philo by trade if we give CoL away. The options are:

Stailin:Gift WE of Churc
Gandi:60 gold WE of Stalin, Kublai, Mao and Sal
Sal:10 gold
kublai:40 gold WE of Gandi and Hatty

I might consider leaving Gandi out here to not upset Stalinman anymore, Im ok to do the other trades. What's your opinion?

kcd_swede · Aug 3, 2016

I'd do the CoL trade with Kublai. He is on deck for annihilation (probably) so maybe he even builds some courthouses for us.

Could also do the trade with Sal, as Sal is more likely to follow the philo tech path than Kublai.

Agree teching or trading for philo is better than the resources needed to steal it. The spy can wait, I guess.

Green for me

Ronnie1 · Aug 3, 2016

Green, but I would still prefer 5-6 turn breaks just because so much is happening at this point.

I would still like to hear other opinions on what our limiting factor will be, tech or military. I think it will still be military.

Zhary · Aug 3, 2016

Played to turn 131(6 turns) and something unexpected did happend.

At the end of turn 130 I saw a red fist from Stalin. I though that I can press enter one more turn to capture the first Persian city.
Turn 131 Stalin Dow us! :sad:

I can swear that I checked for that fist every turn so the descition to attack must have come in 1 turn.

I capured the first Persian city anyway before upload the save. We are 2 turns from GP so musketeers could be online in time to protect Berlin but we need some money to upgrade the archers.

(screenies tomorrow)

Ronnie1 · Aug 3, 2016

Lots to figure out now!

kcd_swede · Aug 4, 2016

Zhary said:
Played to turn 131(6 turns) and something unexpected did happend.

At the end of turn 130 I saw a red fist from Stalin. I though that I can press enter one more turn to capture the first Persian city.
Turn 131 Stalin Dow us! I can swear that I checked for that fist every turn so the descition to attack must have come in 1 turn.

I capured the first Persian city anyway before upload the save. We are 2 turns from GP so musketeers could be online in time to protect Berlin but we need some money to upgrade the archers.

(screenies tomorrow)

Too late to beg for gold--- :lol:

The thing to do is assess what his stack looks like and where it is coming from, how many turns, what is vulnerable and how to protect it (nice to be in slavery rather than civic service). Examine if a cease fire or peace deal with Darius is available. Not sure it helps if those units are anyhow out of position.

Hard to assess if geting GP first or saving cash for upgrading to lb first is the way to go. Think about selling stuf for cash while getting guns as fast as possible.

Maybe more ideas come up if you share the save and we get more eyes on it.

Stalin had to die anyhow, so no time like now.

Makes it exciting! :clap:

nocho · Aug 4, 2016

Been on the road for a couple of days to my holiday destination. Went from sun to rain. :sad:

Had a quick look, seems we should try to hold our ground at Berlin. At least a reasonable number of units there. Obviously should whip some units in the cities relatively close by, the mace in Cologne, knight in Paris etc. Get the double medic chariot to Berlin. Upgrade the archers. Try to pick of units from the stack. At least it's old stuff Stalin is bringing. Probably throw some siege at it ourselves.

Zhary · Aug 4, 2016

Pics

I dont have time to play during the weekend. If someone else wnat to defend Berlin they are welcome to do so.

Some ideas and options:

Let stack continue to Persepolis it doesnt have the time to save berlin any way.
We can sell techs for 340 gold and I say that we do it and tech GP on the spot to have money for maximum upgrades.

Berlin have hammers to build LBow or wall in 1 turn so whipping is not need imediatly.
I thinking about build a wall to save 2 turns on bombardment we could get more defenders in place in that time for surrounding city compared to have an extra signle LBow.

Pause Moia in rome and whip a extra Lbow, Whip Lbow in Munich and colongne to but do it with 1 turn build to get it effectly into a 30h whip.

kcd_swede · Aug 4, 2016

It looks like the best defense of Berlin will be a strong offensive assault on that stack. 6 cr1 cats is too much to let him hit our defenders with. I question the utility of a wall... units at only 20% strength don't get much benefit. Also, I think the defenses get bombarded to zero in one turn anyhow (could be wrong).

I can probably play it, but if someone else wants to, that's also fine. I agree with Zhary on all but the wall, though I could be convinced on that, too.

Might not be worst to let him take Berlin and destroy his stack with Trebs in the city. :dunno:

Ronnie1 · Aug 4, 2016

The benefit of walls in Berlin is that Stalin will stop to bombard I believe. My experience says the AI always bombards when facing walls. That gives us time to hit the stack and wound the siege with flanking damage, slowing the assault even more.

I may have some time over the next few days also.

Ronnie1 · Aug 4, 2016

Not a PPP in any way, just how I would go about defending Berlin over the next few turns.

Persia won't speak yet so no options there. I also don't see those forces being necessary to deal with Russia, so I think we continue to attack here as well and eliminate them asap.

Sell the cheapest available techs. No trading of Civil Service, Machinery or Engineering. We don't need any more techs from anyone, and I don't see hurting the future war effort unnecessarily.

Stop teching and put 100% gold. Upgrade current archers to LB's and all arriving archers when they get there. Move all units that do not get defensive bonuses to the hill NW of Berlin. They either get attacked from across the river, still a 25% penalty to attacker, or hopefully the SoD moves onto the pigs so we can attack them next turn in the open.

Build walls this turn and the best unit available for a 1 turn build the next.

Move archers towards Berlin from Athens, Cologne, Munich and Rome.

Whip mace in Cologne. Start LB in Rome and 2 pop whip next turn. 1 pop whip knight in Paris,

. Whip Library in Athens and overflow into LB. Start a Knight in LeHavre and whip next turn. Steady stream of knights out of Bordeaux. Steady stream of trebs out of Nice. I think we are still a littler early for CH's, so unit builds in the east as well for bit.

Do some good solid haka's ibt and hope!

kcd_swede · Aug 4, 2016

You sound a lot more confident than me, so its yours. Your plan sounds ok to me.

Ronnie1 · Aug 4, 2016

Looking even further, I think if we move all the units out of Munich, the SoD may go that direction, the AI cheats.

That would give us even more time to hit them with knights.

Ronnie1 · Aug 4, 2016

I am going to play 1 turn and see how it goes.

I am going to build the LB first in Berlin in case the SoD does go towards Munich. I am going to empty Munich in hopes they go that way, it also puts 3 more units on the hill NW to suck up collateral or scare him a different direction......

So how did it go?

We lost the whole stack I put on the hill.

But that is all we lost over 3 turns except for a knight losing at 85% to a cat on a counter attack.

We are marching on Hamburg!

We are marching on both Persepolis and Susa.

Some logs, upload is attached,

Autolog here because it is shorter and in color.

Spoiler :

The save is here

Deckhand · Aug 5, 2016

Hi, I'm back.
Only three pages of posts to read.
ttyl

kcd_swede · Aug 5, 2016

@Ronnie1:

Looking better than I thought possible. :cool:

Darius vassaling to Stalin seems rather irrelevant, he will die shortly.

KK at war with India ought to keep both of them busy.

I think we'll need ch + forb palace (in India, perhaps) soon... half our gnp is going to city maint.

I'd stop upgrading units, and use binary research to get gunpowder in 3t. Replenish at both fronts, and then start working towards opening a third front on Hatty, The two fronts in Russia and Persia should meet up in Mongolia/China. Egypt force plus new units take on Arabia; and amphibious force to Churchill when we can maintain the units. Whoever is alive last gets to be our vassal.

After RR we have all the tech we need, but it'd be better to get there sooner - so we ought to figure out if ch helps or hurts.

Again, well played Ronnie1!

Deckhand · Aug 5, 2016

OK, I've read the three pages and looked at the save.
Berlin looks perfectly safe to me.

Who is up?
I think Ronnie still.

Who is available/not available?

updated 4 August:

Deckhand: 0 - 5, 70-82, 105-115
nocho: 5-20, 115-125
Ronnie1: 20 - 40, 55-70, 90-99, 131-134
Zhary: 40 - 54, 126-131
kcd_swede: 83 - 89, 100-104

trivial questions about minor observations:
looks like we retrieved the exploring warrior in England and the galley?
archer garrisons were moved to Berlin and upgraded to Longbows?
what happened to the wandering warrior that was in Far East?
exploration of the Himalayan Plateau was deferred?
we should put a fort on the Corsica Spice (or do we have that in trade? I don't have the save open now)

:goodjob:

SGOTM 23 - Unusual Suspects

Jag är Viking!½

Skalman

Deity

Skalman

Jag är Viking!½

Deity

Skalman

Deity

Jag är Viking!½

Deity

Skalman

Attachments

Jag är Viking!½

Deity

Deity

Jag är Viking!½

Deity

Deity

Attachments

Procrastination at its finest

Jag är Viking!½

Procrastination at its finest

Similar threads