SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Jersey Joe]

Pericles would make for a great long-term tech-trading partner, especially if we can delay meeting him until after learning Alphabet.

<snip>

5. Having Warrior 1 look for a chance to steal a Worker from that light-grey AI (Germany?) and if one can't be found, looking to steal a Worker from the next-closest AI

What if the next-closest AI is Pericles?

I did not think stealing tech affected WFYABTA? Would we not want to steal from Germany, while remaining friendly with out trading partner?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

A good long-term tech-trading partner is one whom you meet after you've gotten cheap techs in trade, so that the WFYABTA limit is unlikely to be reached. Or, an AI who is Friendly toward you and toward any Vassals that you may have (we can only have 1 Vassal in this game, so we probably won't even take any Vassals).

So, delaying meeting an AI such as Pericles, who will trade a lot of near-monopoly techs with us, would make him into a better tech-trading partner.

A key point to keep in mind is that by the time that you learn Alphabet, most cheap techs will be available for trade from multiple AIs, no matter how high the iTechTradeKnownPercent values are for those AIs, since nearly all of the AIs will know said techs at the time (think of Bronze Working, Fishing, Pottery, etc), so you don't need to meet the good tech-trading partners when getting the early-game techs in trade and can save meeting those AIs until later, so that those AIs won't hit WFYABTA when you want Code of Laws or Calendar in trade from them.


Stealing techs will not increase WFYABTA counters, but for practical purposes, you'll probably trade more cheap techs when learning Alphabet then you will steal in most of your games, so limiting the number of contacts that we have with the AIs before getting cheap techs in trade is probably our best bet for keeping tech-trading opportunities open in the long term.


Stealing can be good in some cases:
1. One AI is far ahead of other AIs in tech
2. There's a key tech that you want to get that other AIs are likely to shun researching once said tech has been learned, such as Theology, so that you can gift it to a chosen AI to build The Apostolic Palace for you
3. When the cost to steal is low in terms of the number of EPs that need to be spent. For example, you have a City that you can gift with your State Religion in it that is close to your capital, possibly being gifted just before going to war with an AI, so that you can gift the City, steal the tech with pre-planted Spies, and then immediately recapture your City


With the Religions having been pre-founded in 4000 BC, the AIs will be more likely to delay going after the Religious techs, but the Religious techs won't be ignored forever, as many of the early ones have a cheap cost, and total Flask cost factors into about one third of an AI's decision on which tech to select to research next.

Certain implications could be a delayed The Temple of Artemis, a delay in AIs spreading around their Religions (without Organized Religion or Monasteries for a while, it will take a lot longer for AIs to spread their Religions), and most importantly, a delay in the AIs getting to Feudalism, making warring a lot more attractive than normal. Then again, Mehmed with The Great Library and his Turn-15 Great Scientist, could still race his way to Feudalism by simply researching a lot of techs and sometimes randomly picking the cheap Religious techs as his tech selections.


Stealing techs may not be good in other instances:
1. You can get a lot of War Success (winning a lot of battles and losing very few battles) against an AI and take some techs for peace
2. You can simply trade for the techs with another AI (no EPs or Spies are required)
3. You don't need the tech right away and can wait for additional AIs to learn it before getting the tech in trade

 

[pigswill]

Dhoomstriker: it would appear that your early strategy is to beeline alphabet, forget Glight and forget exploration until alphabet to avoid meeting too many AIs. Is this correct?

We can guess from border colours that we have Germany and Greece to the east of us but we don't know which leaders or which religions they have until contact which means we're acting on limited information. This would be an argument for at least contacting Germany and Greece so we know with whom we're dealing. We can use the warrior for this at expense of reduced spawn busting efficiency. It would be good to have this information before we finish AH and decide next tech.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Dhoomstriker: it would appear that your early strategy is to beeline alphabet, forget Glight and forget exploration until alphabet to avoid meeting too many AIs. Is this correct?

I'd like to keep our options open, so either that or we go for the minimal techs on our way there that we think will be necessary to get in the short term.

Those techs might be Fishing -> Pottery -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Writing -> Alphabet

We might also throw in Sailing.

Going straight for Fishing -> EDIT: Mining (thx, pigswill) -> Writing -> Alphabet would be decent with a north-east City as our City 2 because we could Mine some GH squares to help with building a Library there, without needing too many additional techs (just Fishing). 2 Scientists plus a Library plus 4 Commerce (Fish + City Centre + 1 Trade Route) give us 10 base Flask or 12 Flasks with the Library, which then get the 20% bonus for most techs that aren't first-column techs. Fishing is a first-column tech.

Note that all of those techs mentioned assume after Hunting -> AH.


We'll meet the Grey AI shortly and I'd suggest focusing on finding a Worker-stealing Resource for that AI. The Light-Blue AI doesn't need to be met... if a Scout meets us, so be it, but if we can avoid meeting said AI, I think that doing so will be in our best interests.


What does knowing the Leader or their Religion do for us if we end up being unable to trade techs with said AI due to meeting said AI too early?

 

[pigswill]

I certainly agree we need fishing and mining after AH. It doesn't really matter which order we get them because we'll get both before we have a second city and before worker finishes wheat, deer, cow and fur (T34 regardless of order). Iirc England has fishing and mining as their starting techs.

Worker steaing? Its a decent option as the first step in a campaign of annihilation, not always a good basis for a long term trading relationship.

Does meeting an AI early affect their willingness to trade or WFYABTA limit or both?

 

[Folket]

I certainly agree we need fishing and mining after AH. It doesn't really matter which order we get them because we'll get both before we have a second city and before worker finishes wheat, deer, cow and fur (T34 regardless of order). Iirc England has fishing and mining as their starting techs.

Worker steaing? Its a decent option as the first step in a campaign of annihilation, not always a good basis for a long term trading relationship.

Does meeting an AI early affect their willingness to trade or WFYABTA limit or both?

It affects WFYABTA in that they do not know about any techs you traded for before meeting them. It does not affect willingness to trade directly.

 

[pigswill]

In terms of the next few turns:

T5 Select hunting.
Missionary 1N, stop.
Scout W>W.
Warrior SW.

T6 Select AH
Missinary and scout static.
Warrior SE.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'm fine with your plan. I don't think that it particularly matters in which direction that you move Warrior 1 on Turn 5, as any direction that you pick will give us equal spawn-busting, while no Barb Unit will be able to attack us until the end of Turn 7 at the earliest, given the geography of the test game. We could easily be on a GH For square by the end of Turn 7.

It will probably be preferable not to engage a Barb Unit (so that we can remain at full Health should a Worker-stealing opportunity be available to us), but if we're going to get into a fight, being on defensive terrain will put the odds highly in our favour.

Assuming that no one objects to the plan and once you've played out the PPP, feel free to post your immediate next PPP, to keep the pace of the game rolling.

Here's a picture illustrating how spawn-busting will end up being equal on Turn 5, regardless of in which direction you travel:

Spoiler :

Barb Units will spawn on the end of Turn 5 (and can also spawn on future turns) but won't be able to move until the end of Turn 6, meaning that with the terrain limiting a potential Barb Unit's movement, even 2-movement-point Barb Units won't be able to attack our Warrior 1 until Turn 7 at the earliest.

I'm fine with you posting a PPP of playing ahead until Turn 12, stopping only if something interesting happens, or if you feel that you need some input from the team on a particular action (such as where to best move Warrior 1 next, given the terrain revealed. Or, make your own call, if you feel comfortable doing so). Examples of "something interesting" could be that we see a Barb Unit or we see a location that might be good for stealing a Worker once the relevant AI builds a Worker.

Turn 12 will probably have Worker 1 building a partial Farm 1 SW of Paris and stopping his action, then farming the Wheat on Turn 13, but there's still time for someone to come out with a test run where improving the Deer first is the way to go.

 

[pigswill]

Its the start of turn 12 that we need to decide on priorities. For faster growth we improve wheat first, for earlier warrior we improve deer first. But let's get to turn 12 first.
Given other units remain static and we continue working deer the only variables are warrior movement and the unexpected (barbarian modern armour etc).

I'd like to check the mountains between Germany and Greece to check if they have easy access to each other so its likely to be T6 SW T7 SE T8 SE.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Question whether using the scout as a spawn buster is the best use. What about taking our chances with animals and sending him across the Pyrenees?

 

[pigswill]

T5
Moves as PPP. Hunting selected.
Our borders pop.
Its Freddie (Frederick II of Prussia is leading Germany).
A Dark Green line to the south west suggests we have Joao as our southern neighbour.

T6.
Warrior heads south east. Others stay still. No beasties. No surprises. AH>Hunting (11t)

T7.
Warrior heads south east again. Looks a bit dull down there. Mountains on the southern horizon.
Other units stay still, no beasties yet.
AH in 10, we have 15 beakers in it already (+4 from somewhere?)
All eps still on Ch'ill.
We're up to 5th in land (21,000), must be quite a few coastal civs.



I'll move warrior NW to hill and he can stay there for a few turns.



I still can't decide if tile 2w of scout is forested mountains or forested hills. If someone could have a look and give an opinion it would be useful.

Save:http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG023_BC3720_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Cactus Pete]

Would prefer moving warrior around the German city's perimeter to find out if there is a resource that we can expect a worker to improve soon. Similarly for our scout -- like to have him scout Joao's city if possible (looks like forested hill).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

For faster growth we improve wheat first, for earlier warrior we improve deer first.

Things to keep in mind:
The G Riv Wheat is equivalent to a G Riv Corn, so it gives us 7 inputs ( 6 F + 1 C ).
The G Riv Deer For doesn't give us a Commerce due to its Forest blocking the River's Commerce, so it gives us 6 inputs ( 5 F + 1 H ). Note that Camping the Deer does not add additional Hammers.
The G Cow isn't on a River, so it gives us 6 inputs ( 4 F + 2 H). It also can't be improved first.

Trying to maximize Hammers by improving Deer -> Cow, I get 22 Hammers by the time that we hit Size 3, meaning that we get Warrior 2 on turn 20 and have 7 Hammers that we have to dump into a Barracks.

If we then grow to Size 4, we can get Warrior 3 out, but at the cost of delaying our Settler three turns until Turn 33. That price is pretty steep to pay, as it is our first self-built Settler. We also are late on getting our squares improved, only getting the 3rd Resource completed on Turn 27 or Turn 28, so we won't be working an improved Resource with that 4th citizen.

If we improve the Wheat first, although it takes us an extra turn to improve it relative to improving the Deer:
Wheat = partial Farm for 1 turn + 5 turns Farming the Wheat = 6 turns
Deer = move to the Forest for 1 turn + 4 turns of Camping the Deer = 5 turns
we end up with more inputs overall if we improve the Wheat first, as shown by the math in Message 285, as the Wheat is a 7-input square.

By improving the Wheat first, we have the option to get our Warrior 2 on Turn 21 and put 2 Hammers into a Barracks or get our Warrior 2 on Turn 22 and put 0 Hammers into a Barracks. I don't see a delay of 2 turns for Warrior 2 as being a significant delay.

A delayed Settler is a big deal. A delayed Warrior can be compensated by wise unit movements, and the advantage from an earlier Warrior can be negligible if the Warrior's role is to protect the area for City 2.

I'd like to check the mountains between Germany and Greece to check if they have easy access to each other so its likely to be T6 SW T7 SE T8 SE.

I'd much prefer if we hugged the Cultural Borders of the grey-coloured AI, being ready for any Worker-stealing opportunity and trying to meet as few of the AIs as possible.

This map is loaded with AIs; before we learn Alphabet, enough AIs will come to seek us out with Scouts, Work Boats, or Archers. In all likelihood, too many AIs will come to meet us. Let's try to get a strategic advantage over other teams right from the start by AVOIDING meeting as many AIs as we can, to increase our medium-term tech-trading potential. This game is all about teching the fastest possible to Railroad. Does anyone disagree with this claim? So, we want to maximize any opportunity possible to increase our tech pace, and meeting as few AIs intentionally as possible in the turns up to Alphabet plus about 3 turns after Alphabet, while we do some rounds of trading, is an approach that has the potential to put us ahead of teams who rush out to meet other AIs.

Strategically, it is in our best interests to stop meeting AIs.

Hopefully, the following thread (linked on the first page of our team's thread) will help to enlighten you how we should fear the AIs telling us that they would not trade techs with us (telling us WFYABTA too soon in the game) if we were to rush out to meet them early on in the game:
Tech Trading: We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced Game Mechanics and Leader Listing


As for whether those 2 AIs (Germany plus the light-blue-coloured Greece?) will meet, we can expect their Cultural Borders to expand to the third ring after 34 turns (3 Culture per Turn) + 1 turn of Religious Anarchy + 1 turn of Slavery Anarchy, meaning that they are almost certain to meet each other after 36 turns.

Germany starts with Hunting, as does Greece. Even if Greece is on an island, the odds of them not having met within the first 10 turns of the game is quite low, due to only one of them being required to send out a Scout and spot the other AI's Cultural Borders.

So, if we fear angering another AI (such as Greece) by declaring war on Germany, then let us keep in mind that the longer that we delay to steal a Worker, the more AIs that Germany will meet, and thus the greater the chance of us angering more AIs, as every turn that it takes until we can steal our first Worker, Germany is busy sending its Scout out to meet other AIs. AIs don't trade enough to have to worry about receiving DENIAL_TECH_WHORE messages, and they play at a lower difficulty level than us, and often get Friendly with other AIs, so they'll still be able to trade by meeting other AIs, while we will have less trading opportunities in the post-Mathematics era for every AI that we meet out pre-Alphabet. AIs don't declare war to steal Workers and they don't generally trade a ton of techs (Mansa Musa being one exception for the tech-trading point), so it doesn't hurt them to meet other players and thus the AIs will try to meet each other; counter-intuitively, it is against our best interests to do the same thing as the AIs. But, we know that the AIs do dumb things (Roading to a Wheat before Farming it), so let's be wiser than the AIs in more ways than one.

The fact is that we will anger multiple AIs for any war declaration on a map with this many AIs. Is getting a Worker early worth that price? In my opinion, yes. We can get Settler 2 out several turns sooner if we capture Worker 2 instead of self-building Worker 2 before Settler 2. That's a significant boost to our empire and we should have all of our energy focused on trying to steal a Worker now.


I suggest that we stop play until we have alignment on our goals, as I am hearing conflicting thoughts on how we'd like to play.

Let's make sure that we're in agreement and then let's make our decided-upon goals part of the PPP, so that we are all clear on what we're trying to accomplish with a given turnset.


My suggestion for our goals:
1. Meet as few AIs as possible
2. Put all of Warrior 2's efforts into stealing a Worker
EDIT: 3. Spawn-bust with our Missionary and our Scout
EDIT: 4. Build a Worker while working the Deer

Other people may have different opinions on our current goals. Discuss them, then decide, and then play only when we have agreement on our goals.



If we were to go ahead with these goals, I would suggest:
1. Scout moves 1 NE G > 1 N G For (1 SE of the G Riv Wheat and 1 W of the G Fur For) and spawn-busts from there, without moving further for the foreseeable future. Doing so means the chance to avoid meeting that green-coloured AI and the light-blue-coloured AI for as long as possible.
2. Warrior 1 does not stand in place. Warrior 1 hugs Germany's Culture in search of a Worker-stealing opportunity. It looks as though there are Peaks to the south-east, so we must go north and then north-east and then east and then south-east and then south around Germany's Cultural Borders, in search of a Resource on the edge of Germany's Cultural Borders that an AI can improve early on, such as a Corn, a Wheat, a Rice, a Gold, a Gems, a Silver, a Fur, a Deer, possibly a Pig, possibly a Cow, or possibly a Sheep.


If we were to decide as a team upon different goals, we might do different things. But, let's first decide on our goals and then be sure to document our goals in our PPPs so that we know that we're all in alignment on what we're trying to accomplish with a given turnset.

 

[Jersey Joe]

What about partial road (instead of partial farm) 1N of Paris when worker moves from Camped Deer to Cow? This gets a road finished between Paris and the second city on the turn it is settled (2720bc).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

What about partial road (instead of partial farm) 1N of Paris when worker moves from Camped Deer to Cow? This gets a road finished between Paris and the second city on the turn it is settled (2720bc).

It's in a good spot for Forest growth (which Roads halve), so a Road on the Forest 1 E of there is preferable and can also get finished in time to save our Settler 2 one turn of movement.

 

[pigswill]

Sending the warrior further afield in search of a worker increases the chance of AI contact and also increases the chance of animal spawn between France and Germany. Stealing a worker on Germany's eastern borders also makes it more difficult to get the worker back safely given mountains to south and coast to north.

edit: I would suggest that the role of starting warrior is to spawnbust Luxemburg, the role of warrior2 is to relieve the missionary of spawn-busting duties so missionary can add culture to city2.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Sending the warrior further afield in search of a worker

I thought that that was what we had agreed to do as a team. If people want to change their minds and/or vote on the subject, I am quite fine to wait for other responses.

For me, personally, the potential gain from stealing a Worker early on is far too great to outweigh the possible negative consequences.

I accept that we may inadvertently meet additional AIs, but we can minimize our chances by hugging Germany's Cultural Borders.

I accept that we may end up engaging a Barb Unit, but the same can happen if we just stay to the west of Germany, as there are 4 squares which are not Culture-Busted and Warrior 2 cannot cover all of them, so even if we stayed to the west of Germany, a Barb Unit could still spawn there.

increases the chance of animal spawn between France and Germany.

That's true. But, I can't see a way to spawn-bust the entire area to the west of Germany. See the Culture-Busting map in Message 308. It may be to our advantage for a Barb Animal to spawn there, as it would act as a spawn-buster for Barb Warriors or worse, Barb Archers.

So, if we leave that area, a Barb Animal will have a greater chance to appear, but that event would lower the chances of a Barb Human spawning there.

Stealing a worker on Germany's eastern borders also makes it more difficult to get the worker back safely given mountains to south and coast to north.

We'll manage. We've got a whole team of people here who are willing to provide helpful feedback. If need be, we can escort the Worker one square at a time with our Warrior until we can be certain to get our Worker to a location that know must be Barb-free.

Of course, there might be no such Worker-stealing opportunity. Then, we'll have the tougher choice of heading out to meet Light-Blue (with Warrior 1) or Green (with Warrior 2) to try to get a Worker.

An early Worker will help to alleviate a lot of our tough Worker-action decisions and can mean that we'd definitely build Settler 2 as soon as we hit Size 3, saving us 5 to 6 turns on Settler 2 (I'm not sure of the exact number of turns, but it's about that much) relative to self-building Worker 2.

the role of warrior2 is to relieve the missionary of spawn-busting duties so missionary can add culture to city2.

We'll already be all right with only one vector for Barb Units to spawn near to us. The toughest part to deal with is when the Barbs rush from all sides, and we'll only have one area where they could rush us from, and said Barbs might instead go for Germany.

When it comes to the time of completing Warrior 2, if we were successful with stealing a Worker, Worker 2 and/or Warrior 1 might already be back in the area to the east of Paris. I recognize the thought that Germany may compete for us with a settling location to the east, but we might just say "we stole Germany's Worker, delaying the chance of seeing a German Settler, so let's just send Settler 2 to where our Missionary is located, buying us an extra unit for spawn-busting" (the Missionary could then spawn-bust the south while the Scout could spawn-bust somewhere else).

Or, we might settle to the east, using Warrior 2 to clear any Barb Unit for Worker 1 and Settler 2, then only move in the Missionary after we've had a chance to either build Warrior 3 or have sent one of Warrior 2 or Worker 1 to the west, say, sending Worker 1 to Camp the Fur. Meanwhile, assuming that we didn't steal a Worker from Germany, Warrior 1 might be busy trying to steal a Worker from Light-Blue or another AI to the east of Germany.

Basically, as long as we've got most of the nearby area spawn-busted, it's okay to let a Barb Unit spawn in an area between us and another AI... don't forget that Germany may send out a Unit to spawn-bust the area to the west of Germany. If Germany is going to compete with us for settling location, Germany may send out an Archer there, clearing the Barbs in the area.

Have some faith, let's try our luck with Worker stealing, and let's see where it takes us. If no team can Worker steal, no real loss, as we might see a Barb Animal (instead of a Barb Human) and Germany might just do the spawn-busting or Barb-killing for us. If teams can Worker steal, though, we'll kick ourselves hard for missing out on the opportunity.

 

[pigswill]

It's true there's a clear majority in favour of worker stealing. I'll move the warrior north and east to have a look up to T12 at which point I'll hand over to someone else.

 

[pigswill]

Played up to T12 (3250bc)

England's borders popped T10, we still have sheep so Ch'ill is indeed on an island.

Warrior moved north and east. No sign of beasties anywhere. No dramatic events or announcements to report. We have our worker, currently unmoved.



save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG023_BC3520_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Cactus Pete]

What about partial road (instead of partial farm) 1N of Paris when worker moves from Camped Deer to Cow? This gets a road finished between Paris and the second city on the turn it is settled (2720bc).

Second city location may be determined by horses revealed.

Am I the only one interested in moving the scout toward Portugal?