Hope that all is well. Prayers for you, your wife and family. She is way more important than a turn set.
SGOTM 23 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Best wishes, Pigswill.
"I'm concerned that someone found Lisbon early and made a warrior rush. Didn't one of the AIs have a climbing power graph early on?" I meant one of the other teams had a climbing power graph early. Was that not the case.
I am tied up until Tuesday morning, but could play then, if no one else can sooner.
"I'm concerned that someone found Lisbon early and made a warrior rush. Didn't one of the AIs have a climbing power graph early on?" I meant one of the other teams had a climbing power graph early. Was that not the case.
I am tied up until Tuesday morning, but could play then, if no one else can sooner.
Dhoomstriker
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Agreed. Our thoughts and our prayers are with you at this difficult time.
Power is a bit tricky, as all sorts of things contribute to it... population points, learning techs, building Buildings, and building Units.
Read more about The inner workings of the Demo screen explained. Note that the Power graphs = Soldiers on the F9 DEMOGRAPHICS screen divided by 1000.
In our game (real game and test game), we have 14000 for our Soldiers value. On the Power graph, we have a Power of 14.
Between Turns 26 and 33, Team Unallocated went up in Power by about 10 or 11 more than we have now. 8 of that is likely to come from a tech such as Bronze Working.
Unusual Suspects had a similar Power jump between Turns 32 and 40.
Neither team showed a quick, substantial build-up of Power, nor the tell-tale dip in Power that you see when losing Military Units.
Team Unallocated's next Power jump corresponds with them getting Alphabet (maybe in trade?) between Turns 60 and 69.
Meanwhile, Turbo Ants and Phoenix Rising did see Power jumps when learning Alphabet and getting techs such as Mining and Bronze Working in trade. They continued to see Power rises after that, indicating that they were spamming Military Units soon after learning Alphabet. This theory is further confirmed for Turbo Ants who launched their first serious attack at around Turn 70. Phoenix Rising look to be planning a similar approach but haven't played far enough for us to see when they'll actually start warring.
Agreed, US & Unallocated power graphs are explained by techs
Turbo Ants & PR have clearly conquered, starting around t50-55.
Turbo Ants & PR have clearly conquered, starting around t50-55.
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Sorry to hear that, praying for you and yours.
Appreciate the education on power graphs and very glad to hear other teams don't have Lisbon already.
Looks like no one else has volunteered to play next, so I will try to post a plan later today, planning to play tomorrow, if there are no issues. Soliciting advice on diplo and EP points.
Leaving town on Thursday, so someone else will be needed for the weekend.
Looks like no one else has volunteered to play next, so I will try to post a plan later today, planning to play tomorrow, if there are no issues. Soliciting advice on diplo and EP points.
Leaving town on Thursday, so someone else will be needed for the weekend.
Dhoomstriker
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For Diplo:
Do not Open Borders with Stalin (we might change our minds later if we're locked into a war with Frederick, but for now we can keep Borders Closed with Stalin)
If Stalin asks us to Stop Trading with Frederick, refuse
I can't think of any other case that may come up, but if you see something available (a tech trade from an AI getting Alphabet, a Resource trade from an AI building a Road to us, etc), then feel free to pause play and ask.
As for Frederick...
I'm thinking that our Warrior 1 should head due north-west for 3 turns, ending up on the G Riv square that is 1 S of the G Riv Sheep that will be within Germany's Cultural Borders next turn.
If we spot Frederick sending a Worker toward the Sheep, then please stop play and we can determine the best way to deal with his Worker--we might choose to declare war while we're within his Cultural Borders or we might move first and then declare war on the following turn, once we're outside of the Cultural Borders. It will really depend upon which units Frederick has up there and where those units are located.
By staying 1 S of the G Riv Sheep instead of going 4 squares north-west to the G For that is 1 W of the G Riv Sheep, we should also get an idea of any other units that may be coming--in the test game, Frederick sent a Settler Party up toward the Sheep and settled between the two Sheep.
Also, we don't know if and when Frederick may learn The Wheel in the real game, and him learning The Wheel might mean that he'd start building Roads instead of improving the Sheep. All that we can do is be ready for the possibility of stealing a Worker.
We've already talked about the other key details...
i. XO Cognac works the Cow once it has been Pastured and then Paris immediately steals back the Fur square--any delay here delays our Work Boat which in turn delays our next Settler
ii. We discussed when exactly Warrior 2 needs to enter Paris as a Military Police Unit and thus exactly how long he can camp out near Portugal's Cultural Borders
iii. As soon as XO Cognac builds its Work Boat, we switch from working Cow + G For to Cow + Fish, then start to build a Warrior for 2 turns only
iv. As soon as XO Cognac reaches Size 3 and automatically works a G For with its 3rd citizen (2 turns after completing its Work Boat), we start building a Settler in XO Cognac
v. After completing its Library, Paris builds a Settler
vi. After completing its Library, Paris immediately hires 2 Scientist Specialists
As Paris grows, new citizens will automatically work G For squares, which are the squares that we will want to work, so there's nothing to micro in Paris whenever the City grows.
We've already saved up enough Gold for us to not to need to mess around with changing the Science Slider until after learning Alphabet--we should be able to stay at 100% Science. If somethings seems unexpected (maybe stealing a Worker gives us -1 Gold per Turn?), then feel free to stop play so that we can reassess the situation.
As I've mentioned a billion times already, we want to avoid meeting additional AIs, so our Scout stays in place while our Missionary explores the western coast containing Portugal's Culture and then heads due north-east, probably ending up on the G Riv For that is 1 NE of Paris, as we'll likely use this Missionary in the City that gets settled to the north-east of Paris, but we also don't want to risk our Missionary's life by sending him outside of our Cultural Borders to the north-east until after this turnset.
The suggested Worker actions were already laid out, too.
EDIT: As for EPs, we might as well keep them on Churchill for now. If we later really want to know info about a different AI, say, Joao, it will be better to spend a whole bunch of EPs on him at once in a "surprise EP attack" by using a 100% Espionage Slider, so that Joao won't spend his EPs on us in the meantime. The less EPs that an AI spends on us, the less EPs that we will need to spend on that AI to accomplish an Espionage task at a later time in the future, such as using EPs to bring Lisbon's City Defences down to 0 for one turn. As soon as you start spending EPs on an AI, that AI will become more likely to spend their EPs on you. Diplo Attitudes also play a role in whom an AI choses as their target for Espionage Point spending. Churchill is already spending all of his EPs on us, so it can't get "any worse" for us by continuing to spend our small amount of EPs on him.
Do not Open Borders with Stalin (we might change our minds later if we're locked into a war with Frederick, but for now we can keep Borders Closed with Stalin)
If Stalin asks us to Stop Trading with Frederick, refuse
I can't think of any other case that may come up, but if you see something available (a tech trade from an AI getting Alphabet, a Resource trade from an AI building a Road to us, etc), then feel free to pause play and ask.
As for Frederick...
I'm thinking that our Warrior 1 should head due north-west for 3 turns, ending up on the G Riv square that is 1 S of the G Riv Sheep that will be within Germany's Cultural Borders next turn.
If we spot Frederick sending a Worker toward the Sheep, then please stop play and we can determine the best way to deal with his Worker--we might choose to declare war while we're within his Cultural Borders or we might move first and then declare war on the following turn, once we're outside of the Cultural Borders. It will really depend upon which units Frederick has up there and where those units are located.
By staying 1 S of the G Riv Sheep instead of going 4 squares north-west to the G For that is 1 W of the G Riv Sheep, we should also get an idea of any other units that may be coming--in the test game, Frederick sent a Settler Party up toward the Sheep and settled between the two Sheep.
Also, we don't know if and when Frederick may learn The Wheel in the real game, and him learning The Wheel might mean that he'd start building Roads instead of improving the Sheep. All that we can do is be ready for the possibility of stealing a Worker.
We've already talked about the other key details...
i. XO Cognac works the Cow once it has been Pastured and then Paris immediately steals back the Fur square--any delay here delays our Work Boat which in turn delays our next Settler
ii. We discussed when exactly Warrior 2 needs to enter Paris as a Military Police Unit and thus exactly how long he can camp out near Portugal's Cultural Borders
iii. As soon as XO Cognac builds its Work Boat, we switch from working Cow + G For to Cow + Fish, then start to build a Warrior for 2 turns only
iv. As soon as XO Cognac reaches Size 3 and automatically works a G For with its 3rd citizen (2 turns after completing its Work Boat), we start building a Settler in XO Cognac
v. After completing its Library, Paris builds a Settler
vi. After completing its Library, Paris immediately hires 2 Scientist Specialists
As Paris grows, new citizens will automatically work G For squares, which are the squares that we will want to work, so there's nothing to micro in Paris whenever the City grows.
We've already saved up enough Gold for us to not to need to mess around with changing the Science Slider until after learning Alphabet--we should be able to stay at 100% Science. If somethings seems unexpected (maybe stealing a Worker gives us -1 Gold per Turn?), then feel free to stop play so that we can reassess the situation.
As I've mentioned a billion times already, we want to avoid meeting additional AIs, so our Scout stays in place while our Missionary explores the western coast containing Portugal's Culture and then heads due north-east, probably ending up on the G Riv For that is 1 NE of Paris, as we'll likely use this Missionary in the City that gets settled to the north-east of Paris, but we also don't want to risk our Missionary's life by sending him outside of our Cultural Borders to the north-east until after this turnset.
The suggested Worker actions were already laid out, too.
EDIT: As for EPs, we might as well keep them on Churchill for now. If we later really want to know info about a different AI, say, Joao, it will be better to spend a whole bunch of EPs on him at once in a "surprise EP attack" by using a 100% Espionage Slider, so that Joao won't spend his EPs on us in the meantime. The less EPs that an AI spends on us, the less EPs that we will need to spend on that AI to accomplish an Espionage task at a later time in the future, such as using EPs to bring Lisbon's City Defences down to 0 for one turn. As soon as you start spending EPs on an AI, that AI will become more likely to spend their EPs on you. Diplo Attitudes also play a role in whom an AI choses as their target for Espionage Point spending. Churchill is already spending all of his EPs on us, so it can't get "any worse" for us by continuing to spend our small amount of EPs on him.
Got that.
You mentioned some time ago that we might want to close borders with Fred in 11 turns to keep Stalin from making a demand. Not clear that that is optimal.
Should stealing a worker on the sheep become unworkable, what about exploring NE with warrior 2?
I will play the test game, and, if I don't have any problems or generate any questions, I'd like green lights to play in 24 hours. PPP is in Dhoom's last post and in #385.
Will pause for discussion if worker steal is possible or some unexpected event occurs.
You mentioned some time ago that we might want to close borders with Fred in 11 turns to keep Stalin from making a demand. Not clear that that is optimal.
Should stealing a worker on the sheep become unworkable, what about exploring NE with warrior 2?
I will play the test game, and, if I don't have any problems or generate any questions, I'd like green lights to play in 24 hours. PPP is in Dhoom's last post and in #385.
Will pause for discussion if worker steal is possible or some unexpected event occurs.
Dhoomstriker
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For now, keeping Open Borders with Frederick will help us to see where he might be sending his Worker. I think that for the time being, it's worth the risk of Stalin giving us -1 Diplo Attitude for Refusing to Stop Trading with Frederick so that we can have this extra manoueverability in Germany's Culture.
If we steal a Worker, we'll automatically Close Borders with Frederick once we declare war, so in the Worker-stealing case, the Open Borders with Frederick issue will simply go away.
If we don't end up stealing a Worker, Warrior 1 will be needed further to the west to clear a path through whatever Barb Unit or Units may be lurking to the north-east of Paris so that we can settle a City to the north-east of Paris.
Besides, any further exploration now risks us running into AI Scouts and meeting multiple AIs.
About 2 turns after we learn Alphabet, we can start meeting some of the other nearby AIs to see if they have additional techs to trade to us... or, we might decide to gift them some techs to help them with learning techs that we want them to research.
As for meeting all of the AIs... we might still hold off for a while until we have an army rolling across of the map.
I'm not sure how many people have played Continents games when you are technologically ahead of the other Continent, but if you have, your experience may be that the AIs on the other Continent move along at a technological steady pace until they all meet you, and in a game where you're technologically ahead, they suddenly start trading far more than they were before they'd met you. Within a few turns, it seems as though they'd learned a large number of techs. So, the very act of meeting them speeds up their tech pace. That fact is fine for nearby AIs whom we can trade with before clobbering them. But, it might not be so wise of a thing to enable far-away AIs to speed up their tech-trading (via the act of meeting them), which could mean more Longbowmen, Pikemen, Crossbowmen, Catapults, Knights, Muskets, etc that we'd have to face than if we'd delayed meeting some of the further-away AIs.
You have a green light from me (assuming you mean the edited version where on T43 the worker moves 1N and roads the forest, etc.)
I would suggest that you might want to start the warrior moving from Portugal to Paris this turn since it is unlikely he will get a chance to steal a worker before he must leave.
Dhoomstriker
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Try it out in the test game because it's hard to visualize with just text. When I played in the test game:
T35 Warrior 1 moves 1 NW G Riv Wheat Farm
T36 Warrior 1 moves 1 NW G Riv Pig
At the start of Turn 37, Frederick already had 2 Warriors and a Settler on the G Riv Pig 1 N of Berlin. Frederick's Worker has just finished Pasturing the G Riv Cow, as I hovered my mouse over top of that square and saw "Requires Route" instead of "Requires: Pasture"
T37 Warrior moves 1 NW G Riv
At the start of Turn 38, Frederick left one Warrior on the G Riv Pig 1 N of Berlin and had sent one Warrior and his Settler to the G Riv that is 2 N of Berlin. I used the World Builder to cheat to see that his Worker was on the G Riv square that is 1 NE of Berlin
T38 Warrior stayed on the G Riv that is 1 NW + 1 N of Berlin to see what was happening
You're probably bored of that text by now, so here are some pictures starting from T39:
Spoiler :
At this point, we could declare war, so we'd stop play and create a test game that matched the real game's situation. For fun, I'll play out the test game to see what happens there.
Spoiler :
I understand. For the short-term, we seem to have consensus to try out this approach of avoiding incurring WFYABTA by avoiding meeting additional AIs in the time up to Alphabet plus about 2 turns.
We can discuss how to go about further exploration when we get there.
Dhoomstriker
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Since CP seems to be relying on a slightly out-of-date PPP, I suppose that I will update it with the latest details.
Suggested and Slightly Updated PPP
Stop play criteria:
1. Something unexpected happens
2. We spot a Barb Unit that may be headed toward Paris
3. We spot Frederick's Worker one square away from the G Riv Sheep or on the G Riv Sheep
Diplo:
Note that we don't need any Health Resources as Paris is healthy at Size 8.
1. Watch for Joao to offer us Crab (it happened on T42 - 2320 BC in the test game) and try to get his Crab in exchange for our Deer or our Wheat
2. Watch for the chance to gift a Health Resource to Churchill and if we can do so, EDIT: gift him one (we wouldn't gift our Fur as we need that Happiness)
3. Don't Open Borders with Stalin
4. Refuse any request to Stop Trading with a Worst Enemy
T35-2600
Paris Size 4
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen G Forest
Build item: Library
XO Cognac Size 1
citizen fur
Build item: Work Boat
Research: 100% on Alphabet (no change)
EPs: Weight 1 on Churchill (no change)
Warrior 1 (the one at Frederick) is currently named "Warrior." Maybe we can click on his Name to rename him as Warrior 1, to avoid confusion
Warrior 2 (the one at Joao) is currently named "Warrior 1 (Paris)." Maybe we can rename him as Warrior 2
Warrior 1 moves 1 NW G Riv Wheat (1 E of Berlin)
Warrior 2 moves 1 N GH For (2 NE + 1 N of Lisbon)
T35 double-checking numbers: + 17 Flasks / Turn
Scout stays on the G For (1 SE + 2 S of Paris) for the rest of the turnset. Suggestion: When it is his turn, press "w" to wait him. When no other units get selected, double-check that everything looks good for the turn and then you can Skip his Turn by pressing the Spacebar
T36-2560
Paris Size 4
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
XO Cognac Size 1
citizen pastured cow
T36 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 2 turns, XO Cognac grows in 4 turns, + 17 Flasks / Turn
Warrior 1 moves 1 NW G Riv Pig (1 N of Berlin)
Warrior 2 can stay on the GH For (2 NE + 1 N of Lisbon)
Missionary should be able to go 1 W P Riv Road > 2 N to the P Riv For (1 NW + 1 N of Lisbon)
T37-2520
Worker 1 moves NE G > E G Riv Road (1 SW of Paris)
Paris Size 4
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
XO Cognac Size 1
citizen cow
T37 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 1 turn, XO Cognac grows in 3 turns
Warrior 1 moves 1 NW G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin)
Warrior 2 can stay on the GH For (2 NE + 1 N of Lisbon)
Missionary If he couldn't move last turn as indicated, he completes those moves this turn, otherwise he can move to the P Riv For that is 1 NE + 1 N of Lisbon (2N of the P Horse)
T38-2480
Worker 1 moves 1 E G Riv (1 S of Paris) > 1 NE G Riv Deer For
Paris Size 5 (Warrior 2 has this turn plus 4 more turns to get back to Paris)
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest (happens automatically)
XO Cognac Size 1
citizen cow
T38 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 4 turns, Paris builds Library in 9 turns, XO Cognac grows in 2 turns
Warrior 1 stays on the G Riv (1 NE + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2 moves toward Paris 1 NE GH For (1 SW + 1 S of the Wheat)
Missionary moves 1 NE GH For (2 NE + 1 N of Lisbon)
T38 double-checking actions: Warrior 2 is on his way to Paris
T39-2440
Worker 1 camp deer
Paris Size 5
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 1
citizen cow
T39 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 3 turns, XO Cognac grows in 1 turn
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2: Send him to Paris
Missionary: Send him to the G For that is 1 NE of Paris
T40-2400
(Worker 1 camping deer)
Paris Size 5
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 2
citizen cow
citizen G Forest (happens automatically)
T40 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 2 turns, XO Cognac grows in 6 turns, XO Cognac builds Work Boat in 3 turns
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2: Send him to Paris
Missionary: Send him to the G For that is 1 NE of Paris
T41-2360
(Worker 1 camp deer)
Paris Size 5
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 2
citizen cow
citizen G Forest
T41 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 1 turn, XO Cognac grows in 5 turns, XO Cognac builds Work Boat in 2 turns, still + 17 Flasks / Turn
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2: Send him to Paris
Missionary: Send him to the G For that is 1 NE of Paris
T42-2320
Worker 1 camp deer (finished)
Paris Size 6
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest (Once Warrior 2 has arrived in Paris this turn)
XO Cognac Size 2
citizen cow
citizen G Forest
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2: Arrives in Paris
Missionary: Probably arrives on the G For that is 1 NE of Paris
T42 double-checking numbers (after Warrior 2 arrives in Paris): Paris grows in 3 turns, Paris builds Library in 4 turns, XO Cognac grows in 4 turns, XO Cognac builds Work Boat in 1 turn
T43-2280
XO Cognac built Work Boat > Warrior
Work Boat 1 nets XO Cognac's Fish
Worker 1 moves 1 N G For (1 NE of Paris)
Paris Size 6
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 2
citizen cow
citizen works the netted fish
T43 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 2 turns, Paris builds Library in 3 turns, XO Cognac grows in 2 turns, XO Cognac builds Warrior in 5 turns, + 19 Flasks / Turn
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2: Fortifies in Paris
Missionary: Probably keeps Skipping his Turn on the G For that is 1 NE of Paris (we don't want to Fortify him and then lose him to a Barb if we aren't paying attention)
T44-2240
Worker 1 road G Forest (1 NE of Paris)
Paris Size 6
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 2
citizen cow
citizen fish
T44 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 1 turn, Paris builds Library in 2 turns, XO Cognac grows in 1 turn, XO Cognac builds Warrior in 4 turns
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
T45-2200
XO Cognac builds a Settler
(Worker 1 road G Forest (1 NE of Paris))
Paris Size 7
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 3
citizen cow
citizen fish
citizen G Forest
T45 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 3 turns, Paris builds Library in 1 turn, XO Cognac builds Settler in 10 turns by making 7 F + 4 H per Turn in the Settler
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
T46-2160
Paris builds Library > Settler
Paris hires 2 Scientist Specialists
Worker 1 moves 1 SW into Paris > 1 SW G Riv Road > Farms and STOPS
Paris Size 7
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen Scientist
citizen Scientist
XO Cognac Size 3
citizen cow
citizen fish
citizen G Forest
T46 double-checking numbers and actions: Paris builds Settler in 8 turns, XO Cognac builds Settler in 9 turns, Alphabet will be learned in 5 turns, Worker 1 is no longer Farming
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
T47-2120
Worker 1 moves 1 NW G Riv Fur For Road > 1 NW G Horse > Road > STOP
Paris Size 7
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen Scientist
citizen Scientist
XO Cognac Size 3
citizen cow
citizen fish
citizen G Forest
T47 double-checking numbers and actions: Paris builds Settler in 7 turns, XO Cognac builds Settler in 8 turns, Alphabet will be learned in 4 turns, Worker 1 is no longer Roading
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
T48-2080
Worker 1 Pastures G Horse
Paris Size 7
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen Scientist
citizen Scientist
XO Cognac Size 3
citizen cow
citizen fish
citizen G Forest
T48 double-checking numbers: Paris builds Settler in 6 turns, XO Cognac builds Settler in 7 turns, Alphabet will be learned in 3 turns
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Suggested and Slightly Updated PPP
Stop play criteria:
1. Something unexpected happens
2. We spot a Barb Unit that may be headed toward Paris
3. We spot Frederick's Worker one square away from the G Riv Sheep or on the G Riv Sheep
Diplo:
Note that we don't need any Health Resources as Paris is healthy at Size 8.
1. Watch for Joao to offer us Crab (it happened on T42 - 2320 BC in the test game) and try to get his Crab in exchange for our Deer or our Wheat
2. Watch for the chance to gift a Health Resource to Churchill and if we can do so, EDIT: gift him one (we wouldn't gift our Fur as we need that Happiness)
Spoiler :
3. Don't Open Borders with Stalin
4. Refuse any request to Stop Trading with a Worst Enemy
T35-2600
Paris Size 4
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen G Forest
Build item: Library
XO Cognac Size 1
citizen fur
Build item: Work Boat
Research: 100% on Alphabet (no change)
EPs: Weight 1 on Churchill (no change)
Warrior 1 (the one at Frederick) is currently named "Warrior." Maybe we can click on his Name to rename him as Warrior 1, to avoid confusion
Warrior 2 (the one at Joao) is currently named "Warrior 1 (Paris)." Maybe we can rename him as Warrior 2
Warrior 1 moves 1 NW G Riv Wheat (1 E of Berlin)
Warrior 2 moves 1 N GH For (2 NE + 1 N of Lisbon)
T35 double-checking numbers: + 17 Flasks / Turn
Scout stays on the G For (1 SE + 2 S of Paris) for the rest of the turnset. Suggestion: When it is his turn, press "w" to wait him. When no other units get selected, double-check that everything looks good for the turn and then you can Skip his Turn by pressing the Spacebar
T36-2560
Paris Size 4
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
XO Cognac Size 1
citizen pastured cow
T36 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 2 turns, XO Cognac grows in 4 turns, + 17 Flasks / Turn
Warrior 1 moves 1 NW G Riv Pig (1 N of Berlin)
Warrior 2 can stay on the GH For (2 NE + 1 N of Lisbon)
Missionary should be able to go 1 W P Riv Road > 2 N to the P Riv For (1 NW + 1 N of Lisbon)
T37-2520
Worker 1 moves NE G > E G Riv Road (1 SW of Paris)
Paris Size 4
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
XO Cognac Size 1
citizen cow
T37 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 1 turn, XO Cognac grows in 3 turns
Warrior 1 moves 1 NW G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin)
Warrior 2 can stay on the GH For (2 NE + 1 N of Lisbon)
Missionary If he couldn't move last turn as indicated, he completes those moves this turn, otherwise he can move to the P Riv For that is 1 NE + 1 N of Lisbon (2N of the P Horse)
T38-2480
Worker 1 moves 1 E G Riv (1 S of Paris) > 1 NE G Riv Deer For
Paris Size 5 (Warrior 2 has this turn plus 4 more turns to get back to Paris)
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest (happens automatically)
XO Cognac Size 1
citizen cow
T38 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 4 turns, Paris builds Library in 9 turns, XO Cognac grows in 2 turns
Warrior 1 stays on the G Riv (1 NE + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2 moves toward Paris 1 NE GH For (1 SW + 1 S of the Wheat)
Missionary moves 1 NE GH For (2 NE + 1 N of Lisbon)
T38 double-checking actions: Warrior 2 is on his way to Paris
T39-2440
Worker 1 camp deer
Paris Size 5
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 1
citizen cow
T39 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 3 turns, XO Cognac grows in 1 turn
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2: Send him to Paris
Missionary: Send him to the G For that is 1 NE of Paris
T40-2400
(Worker 1 camping deer)
Paris Size 5
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 2
citizen cow
citizen G Forest (happens automatically)
T40 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 2 turns, XO Cognac grows in 6 turns, XO Cognac builds Work Boat in 3 turns
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2: Send him to Paris
Missionary: Send him to the G For that is 1 NE of Paris
T41-2360
(Worker 1 camp deer)
Paris Size 5
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 2
citizen cow
citizen G Forest
T41 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 1 turn, XO Cognac grows in 5 turns, XO Cognac builds Work Boat in 2 turns, still + 17 Flasks / Turn
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2: Send him to Paris
Missionary: Send him to the G For that is 1 NE of Paris
T42-2320
Worker 1 camp deer (finished)
Paris Size 6
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest (Once Warrior 2 has arrived in Paris this turn)
XO Cognac Size 2
citizen cow
citizen G Forest
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2: Arrives in Paris
Missionary: Probably arrives on the G For that is 1 NE of Paris
T42 double-checking numbers (after Warrior 2 arrives in Paris): Paris grows in 3 turns, Paris builds Library in 4 turns, XO Cognac grows in 4 turns, XO Cognac builds Work Boat in 1 turn
T43-2280
XO Cognac built Work Boat > Warrior
Work Boat 1 nets XO Cognac's Fish
Worker 1 moves 1 N G For (1 NE of Paris)
Paris Size 6
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 2
citizen cow
citizen works the netted fish
T43 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 2 turns, Paris builds Library in 3 turns, XO Cognac grows in 2 turns, XO Cognac builds Warrior in 5 turns, + 19 Flasks / Turn
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
Warrior 2: Fortifies in Paris
Missionary: Probably keeps Skipping his Turn on the G For that is 1 NE of Paris (we don't want to Fortify him and then lose him to a Barb if we aren't paying attention)
T44-2240
Worker 1 road G Forest (1 NE of Paris)
Paris Size 6
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 2
citizen cow
citizen fish
T44 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 1 turn, Paris builds Library in 2 turns, XO Cognac grows in 1 turn, XO Cognac builds Warrior in 4 turns
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
T45-2200
XO Cognac builds a Settler
(Worker 1 road G Forest (1 NE of Paris))
Paris Size 7
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
citizen G Forest
XO Cognac Size 3
citizen cow
citizen fish
citizen G Forest
T45 double-checking numbers: Paris grows in 3 turns, Paris builds Library in 1 turn, XO Cognac builds Settler in 10 turns by making 7 F + 4 H per Turn in the Settler
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
T46-2160
Paris builds Library > Settler
Paris hires 2 Scientist Specialists
Worker 1 moves 1 SW into Paris > 1 SW G Riv Road > Farms and STOPS
Paris Size 7
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen Scientist
citizen Scientist
XO Cognac Size 3
citizen cow
citizen fish
citizen G Forest
T46 double-checking numbers and actions: Paris builds Settler in 8 turns, XO Cognac builds Settler in 9 turns, Alphabet will be learned in 5 turns, Worker 1 is no longer Farming
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
T47-2120
Worker 1 moves 1 NW G Riv Fur For Road > 1 NW G Horse > Road > STOP
Paris Size 7
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen Scientist
citizen Scientist
XO Cognac Size 3
citizen cow
citizen fish
citizen G Forest
T47 double-checking numbers and actions: Paris builds Settler in 7 turns, XO Cognac builds Settler in 8 turns, Alphabet will be learned in 4 turns, Worker 1 is no longer Roading
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
T48-2080
Worker 1 Pastures G Horse
Paris Size 7
citizen wheat
citizen cow
citizen deer
citizen fur
citizen G Forest
citizen Scientist
citizen Scientist
XO Cognac Size 3
citizen cow
citizen fish
citizen G Forest
T48 double-checking numbers: Paris builds Settler in 6 turns, XO Cognac builds Settler in 7 turns, Alphabet will be learned in 3 turns
Warrior 1: Stays on G Riv (1 NW + 1 N of Berlin) watching for Frederick's Worker
pigswill
fly (one day)
Dhoomstriker, I think you may be over-estimating the AIs research capabilities, certainly in my test games we start leaving the AIs behind by 1000bc. In this set-up with early academy we'll research even faster as long as we devote some worker turns to cottages in Paris. Because of this I don't think WFYABTA will be a major issue. Its fair enough when we're trying to optimise payback from alphabet beeline ( and IW may be available earlier than usual) but after that map knowledge is more important.
Once we've got alphabet we'll have to start making our next bunch of decisions: Currency or HbR next, do we try for Glight or build HAs instead for earlier rush, who do we attack first etc.
Once we've got alphabet we'll have to start making our next bunch of decisions: Currency or HbR next, do we try for Glight or build HAs instead for earlier rush, who do we attack first etc.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
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- 13,474
I'm okay either way, but if we wait for the last minute to move Warrior 2, we absolutely cannot forget to move Warrior 2, and he has to head straight for Paris without any misclicks. I tried to give double-checks in the PPP, to try to catch any item that we might have forgotten, but the safer approach would be to do as Jersey Joe suggests so that we don't risk forgetting.
It all depends upon our tech path. Imagine that we go:
Currency -> Horseback Riding -> Code of Laws (probably learning Priesthood first for the 20% bonus to research on Code of Laws) -> Mathematics (a prerequisite for Civil Service in BtS, so get it in trade or steal it?) -> Civil Service -> Paper -> Education -> Printing Press -> Gunpowder -> Chemistry (we need Engineering, possibly in trade) -> Steel
In that case, we aren't competing with AIs for Aesthetics, Metal Casting, Construction, Calendar, Literature, Drama, Monotheism, Compass, Machinery, etc. Whether it takes the AIs a short time or a long time, we'll still want to get all of those techs in trade or via theft, unless we find a desperate need for such a tech in the short term (say, we choose to try to be the first to Music and we decide to self-tech Literature just to make it happen). So, whether the AIs are fast or slow to learn those techs, we'll be wanting to get many of those non-beeline techs in trade.
pigswill
fly (one day)
For RR there's a few extra techs required: steam, RP, banking, guilds, feudalism as well as the stuff you've already mentioned (eng, machinery, MC, construction) so that is indeed a lot of research. While some of this will become available in trade I'm concerned that we may have to wait for AIs to learn the techs before they trade them. Friendly AI and/or a decent size vassal would help.
In terms of military techs going for the standard cuir rush may not be optimal because that's a lot of research which doesn't help us towards railroads (eg nationalism, miltrad, music). However trebs then cannon is a reasonable alternative after our initial HA rush.
This of course is in the distant future, first we need to learn alphabet then establish a decent size empire (10+ cities by 1ad).
In terms of military techs going for the standard cuir rush may not be optimal because that's a lot of research which doesn't help us towards railroads (eg nationalism, miltrad, music). However trebs then cannon is a reasonable alternative after our initial HA rush.
This of course is in the distant future, first we need to learn alphabet then establish a decent size empire (10+ cities by 1ad).
pigswill
fly (one day)
In the short term I'm wondering if XO should build a WB instead of a settler T45. A WB could explore England before heading for fish for NE city, assuming XO grows while building WB we can whip the additional population into a settler which would recover the 30h for the WB. Maybe I'll test this out.
Won't be playing for 6 hours or so, but will stop at T45 and wait for Pigswill's test result, if he has not reported back already. A wkbt has merit.
Interesting test game scenario. Not at all boring. Hope it happens.
Appreciated the updated PPP.
Note that Paris is healthy at size 8 because we have wheat. If we traded or gifted both wheat and fish, though, we'd still be healthy at 7. So, why would I need to pause for consult just to gift a health research to Churchill? (Understand can't afford to gift fur.) Assume you're advocating making these trades for diplo purposes. What, exactly, are the potential benefits, and what price (if any) would we pay if we stop the trades (after 10 turns, of course)?
Interesting test game scenario. Not at all boring. Hope it happens.
Appreciated the updated PPP.
Note that Paris is healthy at size 8 because we have wheat. If we traded or gifted both wheat and fish, though, we'd still be healthy at 7. So, why would I need to pause for consult just to gift a health research to Churchill? (Understand can't afford to gift fur.) Assume you're advocating making these trades for diplo purposes. What, exactly, are the potential benefits, and what price (if any) would we pay if we stop the trades (after 10 turns, of course)?
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
Test away!
In my opinion, we need several rounds of "tech to the techs that we need" followed by "focus on production to get us through the next phase of the game."
So, we're pushing our way to Alphabet in order to open up Slavery + Granaries plus other techs for the same price (if we want to build Horse Archers, we need Archery, for example, and it would suck to have to self-tech Archery).
But, after we have secured our way to Turn 51 Alphabet, we aught to focus hard on REXing, so that once Alphabet is in, we can focus hard on Granary-spamming in multiple Cities. One well-timed Forest Chop can earn us an earlier-built Granary, which in itself is worth somewhere between 25 and 39 Food. That's one powerful Forest Chop.
The following tech goals will be Horseback Riding and Currency, with the order yet to be determined.
After that, we'll want to use our spammed Cities and spammed Granaries to pump out an army of Horse Archers. We'll probably try to build The Great Lighthouse in XO Cognac, too. It's a good City in which to do so as it has 2 of its own Food Resources, so the 2 Great Merchant GPP from The Great Lighthouse can later be combined with GPP from hiring Scientist Specialists, giving us one of two possible good Great People.
After that, we'll want to focus on making it to the next tech goal, which is likely going to be Civil Service.
The thing with emphasizing exploration over REXing is that we will just end up seeing things that we can't do anything about over and over again. How many of us have thought "Darn it, Lisbon looks so juicy, if only we had an army to deal with it?!" Well, there weren't Plains squares nearby, so the map was designed to prevent a team from Warrior rushing.
But, let's not make it harder on ourselves to conquer future military targets. The road to war is paved with REXing, Granaries, and Slavery, so let's stay focused on these items (without disrupting our Turn 51 Alphabet).
No reason, really. Go ahead and do it if the opportunity comes up.Cactus Pete said:
If, on the odd chance, an AI were to Demand/Request a Resource or a Tech from us, I'd also say that in most cases, we should give it to that AI. Such a thing shouldn't happen during this turnset, though, as we won't yet have Alphabet and we need to have an extra, untraded copy of a Resource before an AI will Demand/Request it--an AI cannot Demand/Request our last copy of a Resource.
It's helpful to get AIs' surplus Resources (such as Joao's Crab) to avoid 2 AIs trading Resources with each other, to avoid them getting positive Diplo Attitude with each other, as we generally don't want AIs to get Pleased toward each other, especially if we plan to be declaring war on at least one of them.Cactus Pete said:
When we have been trading 1 Resource to an AI for 50 turns, that AI will give us +1 Diplo Attitude. After 100 turns, that will be +2 Diplo Attitude.
If that amount of time sounds like a long time to wait, that's because it is a long time to wait.
But, every Resource traded or gifted (it doesn't matter which) counts as "1" on the counter toward our target number of 50.
So, if we gifted Wheat to Churchill for 15 turns, then for another 10 turns gifted him Cow, then for another 5 turns traded him Fur for one of his Resources, that would be 30 turns of Wheat + 15 turns of Cow + 5 turns of Fur = 50 total turns of Resources, earning us +1 Diplo Attitude from Churchill.
The "decaying" of Diplo Attitude items changed between Vanilla and BtS, but I am pretty sure that we simply lose 1 turn off of that "50" target number for any turn where we aren't trading/gifting a Resource to an AI toward whom we'd previously been trading/gifting a Resource.
So, you might get 10 / 50 credit for a 10-turn Resource gift, then start to lose that credit by 1 for each turn of stopping the trade. It would be nice if someone had time to test this belief--the best way might be to gift/trade 5 Resources for 10 turns until we see +1 Diplo Attitude for Trading Resources, cancel all Resource deals for a couple of turns, then gift/trade 1 Resource for a couple of turns to see if the +1 Diplo Attitude comes back.
There is no Diplo penalty for us choosing to cancel a trade with an AI, other than the possibility of losing the bonus Diplo Attitude. We would see a Diplo penalty if it was the choice of AI 1 to ask us to Stop Trading with AI 2 and we agreed to AI 1's choice, which would give us a Diplo Attitude penalty with AI 2.
For Resources, I believe that the credit slowly lowers. For BtS Open Borders, I believe that the credit instantly disappears and that you must start your counter at 0 the next time that you Open Borders. Again, it would be nice if someone could confirm this belief--Open Borders for 25 turns until we see the +1 Diplo Attitude for Open Borders, Close Borders, Reopen Borders once the AI is willing to do so again, then see if it takes the full 25 turns until we see the +1 Diplo Attitude again.
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