SGOTM 23 - Xteam

Map is looking like a stylized Europe. England separated from France by narrow body of water. Mountains to the East (Vosges+Alps?) and South (Pyrenees?).
Could Spain be to the south and Germany in the northeast?
Is London is on the same land mass or an island?

If we build the Orient Express (OE) through the NE gap in the mountains (route to Strasbourg?) we might need to take out England to have that section of rail in our control.
 
Thanks for doing some testing, gang! There are certainly many important strategic items to consider before we decide on where to settle.


Culture
+2 from Palace, which won't increase
+8 from Stonehenge, which will double to +16 in 3000 BC, but not increase further
+1 from a Monument, which will not double since it is a free Building that exists only via Stonehenge

But, the most important part about fighting a Cultural battle is the +20 free Culture that comes with each Cultural Border expansion.

How that free Culture works is:
1. City was initially settled: no free Culture
2. City's Cultural Borders have expanded once to "Fledgling" at 10 Culture (to the City's big fat cross): +20 Culture per turn in the initial 9 squares
3. City's Cultural Borders have expanded a second time to "Developing" at 100 Culture: +40 Culture per turn in the initial 9 squares, +20 Culture per turn in the outer 12 squares of the big fat cross
4. Cultural Borders have expanded a third time to "Refined" at 500 Culture: +60 Culture per turn in the initial 9 squares, +40 Culture per turn in the outer 12 squares of the big fat cross, and +20 Culture per turn in the 16 squares that are one level outside of the big fat cross

Assuming that Churchill does not build a Library and does not receive a Religion in London, as of Turn 10, London will have already reached the second Cultural Border expansion with "Developing" Culture, meaning that he'll have put in a partial turn worth of Culture into the Fish and the Cow.


Cultural Numerical Summary
As of Turn 11, 3560 BC, Churchill will be putting 12 Culture per turn into both the Fish and the Cow.

As of Turn 25, 3000 BC, Churchill will be putting 20 Culture per turn into both the Fish and the Cow (due to Stonehenge's Culture having doubled).

As of Turn 36, 2560 BC, Churchill will be putting 40 Culture per turn into both the Fish and the Cow (due to London having reached Refined Culture).

EDIT: The above numbers used Churchill having Judaism in his capital (i.e. I got the numbers from the test game) where he spent 1 turn Revolting to Judaism but didn't have a Holy City in his capital.


At best, we can settle with one of the Cow or the Fish within our capital's initial 9 squares, not both, since they are a bit spread apart from each other. Doing so means that once we reach "Developing" Culture (100 / 3 = 34 turns), we will be in a competition to keep that one Resource square at about even Culture... 40 Culture per turn from Churchill, 43 Culture per turn turn from us, plus whatever Cultural Buildings Churchill builds. The other Resource square will be lost to us, since we'll only be putting in 23 Culture per turn into the other Resource square (the Resource out of the Cow or the Fish that is within our big fat cross but not within our City's initial 9 squares).


Summary
Unfortunately, the above facts means that in order to use the Cow, we would to settle adjacent to the Cow (i.e. have the Cow within our initial 9 squares). So, we could do:
i. Settle where neilmeister did in his "go north" test, 1 W of the G Cow
ii. Settle 1 SW of the G Cow, to stake out more land and an extra Resource while still getting to work the G Riv Deer For while building our initial Worker, getting to settle on the River, and laying claim to extra G Riv squares that would otherwise be owned by Churchill
iii. Settle 1 S of the G Cow, which lets us work the Deer while building our first Worker, but isn't on a River, does get 3 Grassland Hills squares (one with a Wine on it), but doesn't get a Fur
iv. Give up completely on the Cow

Note that the Fish is a total write-off and we won't be getting it until London falls... UNLESS, we manage to get another way to put additional Culture into the Fish, such as settling where neilmeister did in his "go north" test, so that the Fish is within our capital's big fat cross, and then build a Wonder and/or build a second City along the northern Coast to also put Culture into the Fish square.


Espionage
I'm going to suggest that we put Weight 1 on Churchill on the Espionage screen (Ctrl + e). That way, we will later get to decide on which other AIs to spend our Espionage Points. If we neglect this step, the game will decide as we meet AIs, assigning Espionage Points seemingly at random if we meet AIs in between turns.

The problem there is that if we spend more than 0 Espionage Points on a given AI, that AI will have an increased likelihood of spending their Espionage Points on us. The fewer Espionage Points that AIs spend on us, the far more use we will get out of Espionage in this game, as the more Espionage Points that AIs spend on us means the more expensive it becomes for us to use Espionage against said AIs (both passively via things like demographic info, power ratings, and tech research and actively via Spy Missions).


Goals
What do we want to do with this game?

Here are some random thoughts:
1. Beeline Alphabet, possibly skipping Bronze Working to get there really fast. We'd try to trade techs before meeting many of the AIs so that we wouldn't increase a lot of the "We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced" counters for getting cheap techs in trade.
2. Capture useful Wonders. The Pyramids? The Great Library? (Note that The Great Library is also useful in an AI's hands if we can steal techs from that AI.)
3. Capture nearby AI Civs, i.e. Churchill and his annoying Stonehenge.
4. Go for a tech beeline, such as an Engineering Lightbulb? Doing so would mean avoiding getting Fishing (in trade or via self-teching), learning Alphabet, Math, Aesthetics, Construction, and Metal Casting (getting Iron Working and possibly Math via trade), then using 2 Great Scientists to Lightbulb each of Machinery and Engineering, only then getting Fishing
5. Settle on the Coast, forget an Engineering beeline (at least not via a Great Scientist Lightbulb--a Great Engineer can also partially Lightbulb Engineering), and instead go for The Great Lighthouse, using some of the Forests to get us there. We'd settle where neilmeister did, getting a capital with the potential for 3 Food Resources in its big fat cross (although we wouldn't get the Fish for a while). We'd build the +6 Culture per turn Great Lighthouse to eventually get the Fish Resource from Churchill and we'd profit from strong, multiple foreign Trade Routes. We'd focus on building many Cities along the Coast (the nothern Coast looks flatter and longer in the real game's screenshot than in the test game), and we do see Coast to the south-east in the real game like we do in the test game.
6. Focus on getting an AI or two up to Friendly status by gifting some Cities that we settle near to that AI's capital, then leaving that AI around in the game as our Friendly trading partner, our warring buddy, etc.
7. If there is going to be a run-away AI, try to meet that AI early enough in the game (at a time when that AI only has 3 or less Cities) in order to gift that AI a City close to our capital. If possible, we'll let the Barbs capture that City after the City has been to Size 2 at least once, and with some luck, the Barbs won't raze the City (or where we have a World Wonder existing or a Religion founded in that City so that the City becomes unrazeable by the Barbs) and we can then recapture the City so that later, we can gift that City to the technologically-advanced AI in order to steal several techs from that AI (an AI will accept a gifted City if that AI has ever owned that City even if it has put 0 Culture into said City). Whichever AI owns The Great Library in Istanbul might be a very suitable candidate, being technologically advanced due to multiple early Great Scientists and being far away from us and thus not easy to dominate militarily early on in the game.
8. Getting to Currency pretty early so that we can benefit even more from free Commerce, building Wealth, getting lump-sum Gold in trades with AIs, and getting Gold per Turn trades with AIs
9. Get to Construction relatively early for generating Great Generals from an AI that we don't mind staying at war with.
10. Getting to Civil Service + Education as our next goals for Bureaucracy + Oxford University
11. Somewhere in there, possibly doing a Horse Archer rush
12. Somewhere in there, attacking with Catapults + whatever (Axes + Swords, Crossbowmen, Pikes + Trebs, Knights, Musketeers; basically, whatever we have on hand at the time)
13. Get to Gunpowder -> Chemistry -> Steel while the AIs get us Guilds + Banking, so that we can then go Printing Press -> Replaceable Parts (also requires Banking) -> Steam Power (also requires Chemistry) -> Railroad (also requires Steel)
14. With some good planning, get some Great Scientists for Lightbulbing some techs along the way and don't take "the wrong" techs in trade in order to keep our Lightbulbing paths open. "Easy" Lightbulbs (ones where we don't have to think too hard) are Education and Printing Press, as they are high up on a Great Scientist's Lightbulbing path. We'd have to do a bit more research to figure out how best to Lightbulb other techs, such as Chemistry.
15. Possibly try to build The Hanging Gardens
16. Possibly try to build or capture the Mausoleum of Maussollos
17. Probably build The Colossus if we go the plan of building The Great Lighthouse in our capital and building a coastal empire
18. Think about (but don't self-build) The Apostolic Palace... think about how to manipulate who might build it, to our advantage, such as by stealing Theology and then gifting Theology to certain AIs
19. Ignore Education and self-tech Guilds (and possibly Feudalism); heading for Guilds (requires Feudalism + Machinery) -> Gunpowder -> Chemistry (requires Engineering) -> Steel early on for Musketeers + Cannons (we'd definitely need to figure out Lightbulbing priorities and rely heavily on Lightbulbing; I haven't investigated if this possibility is doable yet)
 
Culture
<snip>
Assuming that Churchill does not build a Library and does not receive a Religion in London, as of Turn 10, London will have already reached the second Cultural Border expansion with "Developing" Culture, meaning that he'll have put in a partial turn worth of Culture into the Fish and the Cow.
In the test game London and all other AIs have a religion in thier capital. London in the test game is not a holy city.
I have every AI starting with a religion based on the percentage participation, in the real game, shown on the religion screen. The test game does not have the percentage correct. I think I need to increase the population being counted to a number close to 20. Right now if I change a city to size 2 it shows up in the top 5 cities list so I might need to give some civs additional cities to get the religious percentage correct.
 
Based on their Culture graph, Phoenix Rising has gone ahead and either:
i. Settled on Turn 0 without using their Missionary
OR
ii. Played a tricky game of make us think point i. by settling on a later turn and spreading Christianity such that they'd end up with 10 Culture at the start of T5, 3800 BC


Sorry, I should have clarified that I used the test game to get the turn numbers, which obviously means that London has Judaism in it.

:newyear: EDIT: It looks as though we should be able to use the F8 VICTORIES screen to see exactly how much Culture that Churchill has in London as of the start of Turn 1, so we will know whether he has a Holy City or not next turn. For whatever reason, in the test game, Churchill doesn't revolt to Judaism until the end of Turn 1 instead of at the end of Turn 0. The same behaviour seems to be true of all of the AIs in our test game.


We're probably going to have to make a "gut feel" decision on whether to play a game of going after The Great Lighthouse with a Cultural battle with London or to forget about the water and go for an Engineering Lightbulb approach by avoiding Fishing altogether (note that if you don't know Fishing, you can't work a Coast square).

Other options exist, of course, such as going for Fishing but ignoring the northern Fish and instead going for relatively early Civil Service. I would think that it would be easier to get to Civil Service early (without having Oracle access) via building The Great Lighthouse, though, and using the Great Merchant to Lightbulb Civil Service.


Techs that are not practical for us to Lightbulb by a Great Scientist
1. Railroad is not Lightbulbable by a Great Scientist
2. Steel is not Lightbulbable by a Great Scientist
3. Steam Power is not practical to Lightbulb as Scientific Method (a tech that we don't need) comes up as a Lightbulbing option first by unlocking Printing Press + Chemistry (two techs needed on the way to Steam Power)
4. Replaceable Parts is not practical to Lightbulb, being way at the end of the list of Great Scientist Lightbulbing priorities
5. Gunpowder is essentially not Lightbulbable as it would require too many techs off of our list to try to Lightbulb


Techs that we could aim at Lightbulbing
1. Engineering could be Lightbulbed with some trickiness, but would require:
a) We know Mathematics, Construction, Metal Casting, Machinery, Iron Working, Aesthetics, and Alphabet
b) We do not know Fishing (which also means no Sailing, no Compass, and no Calendar)
c) We do not know Civil Service or Theology
d) We either know Philosophy or we don't know at least one of Meditation or Code of Laws

2. Machinery could be Lightbulbed and would require the same list as Engineering, except that we could Lightbulb Machinery before learning Construction (and obviously won't need to know Machinery).
Presumably, if we were going to go to the trouble of trying to use a Great Scientist to Lightbulb Machinery, we would only do so if we planned to get 2 Great Scientists early, one for Machinery and one for Engineering. Note that Engineering is on our tech path to Railroad.

3. Education could be partially-Lightbulbed simply by knowing Paper and Mathematics, although we don't need Education on the way to Railroad, but getting Education early for Oxford University could be a strong play

4. Printing Press could be partially-Lightbulbed and would require:
a) We know Paper, Education, and Machinery (as well as knowing Mathematics)

5. Chemistry could be partially-Lightbulbed and would require:
a) We do not know one of Astronomy or Printing Press (i.e. don't take Astronomy in trade, and we do not need Astronomy for Railroad anyway)
b) We either know all of Paper + Education + Printing Press or we don't know any of those three techs
c) We either know Philosophy or we don't know one of Meditation or Code of Laws (we'd probably aim to get Philosophy in trade or via stealing if we get Education, assuming that we'd want to take Liberalism ourselves)


Engineering Lightbulb
The trickiest parts about Lightbulbing Machinery + Engineering are that we couldn't learn Fishing but would have to learn Aesthetics. The other requirements are more about avoiding the Code of Laws -> Civil Service path until after our Lightbulbing of those 2 techs.

So, we would have to be extremely careful not to take Fishing as part of tech trade deal if we choose to go down this path.

The next most tricky part is getting 2 Cities up that can start on hiring Scientist Specialists. We can get our second Great Scientist 34 turns (not counting turns of Anarchy) after the turn where we have 2 Libraries with 2 Scientist Specialists hired.


Settler 2
Attempt A] SIP: Settler 2 appears on T30, 2800 BC
Settle in place, research Hunting -> whatever, improve Wheat -> Deer -> whatever (almost certainly the Fur, but doing so doesn't speed up the Settler's production), building Worker -> partial Settler until Wheat is Farmed -> partial Warrior until Size 3 -> finish Settler 2

Attempt B] SIP: Settler 2 appears on T30, 2800 BC plus we have a Warrior
Settle in place, research Hunting -> whatever, improve Wheat -> Deer -> whatever (almost certainly the Fur, but doing so doesn't speed up the Settler's production), building Worker -> partial Warrior until Size 2 -> partial Settler for 1 turn so that we'll get the Food from the Camped Deer on a turn of growth -> complete the Warrior at the same time as reaching Size 3 -> finish Settler 2

The micro may be different for other settling locations, but this quick comparison should give you the important idea that you can partially build a Settler when the number of turns to grow to the next City Size could be decreased by waiting for a Resource to get improved before growing the City.
 
EDIT: It looks as though we should be able to use the F8 VICTORIES screen to see exactly how much Culture that Churchill has in London as of the start of Turn 1, so we will know whether he has a Holy City or not next turn. For whatever reason, in the test game, Churchill doesn't revolt to Judaism until the end of Turn 1 instead of at the end of Turn 0. The same behaviour seems to be true of all of the AIs in our test game.
Out of curiosity, I took Judaism away from London and put a Jewish missionary there. Churchill revolted at the same time in both instances. Also, I noticed that when I took Judaism away from London, Thebes lost its status as Holy City for Judaism. :confused:
We're probably going to have to make a "gut feel" decision on whether to play a game of going after The Great Lighthouse with a Cultural battle with London or to forget about the water and go for an Engineering Lightbulb approach by avoiding Fishing altogether (note that if you don't know Fishing, you can't work a Coast square).
<snip>
The next most tricky part is getting 2 Cities up that can start on hiring Scientist Specialists. We can get our second Great Scientist 34 turns (not counting turns of Anarchy) after the turn where we have 2 Libraries with 2 Scientist Specialists hired.
I do not know if I would call this a "gut feel", more that I am pragmatic, I like the Engineering Lightbulb approach and not engaging in a Cultural battle with London. Two main reasons: (1) The Engineering Lightbulb approach mostly requires the techs we need to learn to build a railroad to Istanbul and beyond. (2) While working on the bulb, we can use the techs we are learning to win the Culture battle with London, by capturing London.
Settler 2
Attempt A] SIP: Settler 2 appears on T30, 2800 BC
Settle in place, research Hunting -> whatever, improve Wheat -> Deer -> whatever (almost certainly the Fur, but doing so doesn't speed up the Settler's production), building Worker -> partial Settler until Wheat is Farmed -> partial Warrior until Size 3 -> finish Settler 2

Attempt B] SIP: Settler 2 appears on T30, 2800 BC plus we have a Warrior
Settle in place, research Hunting -> whatever, improve Wheat -> Deer -> whatever (almost certainly the Fur, but doing so doesn't speed up the Settler's production), building Worker -> partial Warrior until Size 2 -> partial Settler for 1 turn so that we'll get the Food from the Camped Deer on a turn of growth -> complete the Warrior at the same time as reaching Size 3 -> finish Settler 2

The micro may be different for other settling locations, but this quick comparison should give you the important idea that you can partially build a Settler when the number of turns to grow to the next City Size could be decreased by waiting for a Resource to get improved before growing the City.
Nice tip :goodjob:
 
Having pondered the issue and tried a couple of test games 2N of start (SW of cows, NW of deer) has its merits. Obviously commits us to research hunting>AH. The site is poor on hammers but good on commerce. It does leave a space for second city working wheat south of start.

On this start you can get settler and warrior T30 at pop 2.

Longer term strategy stuff we could think about going construction then machinery/eng beeline.
It looks like a GM could help bulbing RR if we avoid nationalism line.
 
Movements and Scouting
If 1N1E = 1NE, 1S1E = 1SE, and 1N1W = 1NW then we are talking about the same moves for the units.
I have decided to switch to the format of putting a space between the number and the cardinal direction.

Personally, I find the notation "1S1E" to be confusing, as there is no standard for how people separate the two moves of multi-move units, such as a Scout or a Missionary.

For example, some people use " + " as a separator, others use ", " as a separator, and still others might not have a separator, meaning that "1S1E" means "move 1 south and then 1 east" for some people, while it means moving "once to the south-east" for other people.

And, before you go saying "Why would you ever move 1 S and then 1 E with a unit?," I will counter that you might do so in many cases, such as when there is a Forest to the south-east but a flatland square to the south and you want to end up one square to the south-east but also get in some extra scouting along the way.

I'm hopeful that "1 SE" will be clearly understood as meaning moving "once to the south-east."

As for multi-moves, we should decide upon a format. Perhaps something like "1 SE G, 1 E G For" or "1 SE G > 1 E G For" might be clear as meaning moving "one square south-east onto the Grassland square, then move one square east onto the Grassland Forest square."


If anyone has good guides on scouting, please share. I have one guide linked on the first page of our thread. The pictures in it aren't working for me, but it may still be of some utility to read: Guide to Scouting

One big point to keep in mind is that you can see extra far across of water squares. This fact doesn't always help much, as coastlines are generally not straight and thus you have to visit the coast reasonably regularly when scouting, but at times, you can skip scouting along the coast, visit the coast a bit further away, and then still see all of the area over the water that you would have otherwise seen, while also having gotten more in-land scouting accomplished.

People seem to more easily understand that they can see 2 squares away from on top of a Hills square (except when terrain "blocks" the view, i.e. you can't see over the tops of the trees in an adjacent Forest/Jungle or over the tops of the Hills of an adjacent Hills square), but the water-scouting tactic seems a lot harder for people to remember, so I threw together a quick couple of pictures that represents a bit of an ideal case with a straight coastline.

Spoiler :
a20bca18b3.png


c2bc9b0be4.png



How can people say our homeland is beautiful and rich when there are no vineyards to be seen? :D
Care to make any further accurate predictions? :lol:


Logs
Okay, in my BUFFY Options (Ctrl + Alt + o), which is actually entitled "BUG Mod Options, on the Logging tab, I have got "Enable Logging" and "Start Automatically" both selected, with a Path value of "C:\temp"

If I play some turns, I get a text file which matches our Leader's Name inside of C:\temp

For example: C:\temp\Test-SG23.txt

[Rant about the logs]Ideally, I was hoping for a log file that would log things that I deem to be important for testing, such as "On Turn X, switch to building a Settler," or "On Turn Y, work the GH Mine instead of the G Riv Farm" (to gain +1 Hammer when building your Settler), but I'm seeing almost a silly level of detail for some of the wrong things in the log, such as saying how much Commerce the empire makes each turn, which doesn't really help you to work out from which sources that Commerce came.[/Rant]

Basically, it looks as though I'll have to stick to note-taking (either in a text file editor while playing the game in windowed mode or on paper) in order to record the micro details to a good enough level to have some comparable and repeatable results.


Settling Options to get the Cow
Here's an image of some possible settling locations, as I find that it's easier to have a discussion with a picture in front of our faces. The X squares are where we might put our capital if we want to fight for control of Resources, whereas the white lines indicate the Cultural pressure that Churchill will be putting on us from about Turn 35 or thereabouts onward.

If we settle adjacent to a Resource, we should be able to maintain control of that Resource, but settling within our big fat cross won't be enough to wrest control of that Resource until well after we have 500 Culture in our capital.

The circles just represent some possible locations for a City #2; that decision isn't totally important just yet and will depend upon what our Scout reveals along the southern coast; just know that we have plenty of options available to us. For now, let's focus on where we want to put our capital.
Spoiler :
c7c3d0838f.png


Red X = we should be able to control a Magical Fish (Coastal Fish) Resource, which is arguably one of the strongest Resources in the game.

Pros: We get the Fish Resource for our use, as long as we learn Fishing
We get to work a Fur
We have a Coastal capital so that we can build The Great Lighthouse for some great capital Commerce
Later in the game, we'll get to use the G Cow Resource
We have 3 Forests to put into The Great Lighthouse

Cons: There won't be a second Food Resource for our capital to work for a long time
There are no Hills squares to work
Unless we reveal a hidden Resource (Copper, Horse, or Iron), this location will be Hammer poor and not amazing for Food (even though a 6-Food Fish is great, there's only one of them)


Orange X = Kind of like a Beijing, China start on the 18 Civs Earth map, where you get a Fish Resource in your big fat cross but aren't coastal, but you don't care because it's a great Resource even without a Lighthouse and your surrounding land is also green.

Pros: Long-term, we get a capital with 3 Food Resources, which is awesome
We get the Deer within our big fat cross, so the Worker will take less than 15 turns to complete (13 turns)

Cons: We won't be able to actually use the Fish or Cow for a long time, essentially meaning that we really have a 1-Food-Resource capital
We have no Hills squares to work


Yellow X = "neilmeister north," where we also get 3 Food Resources later in the game
We actually get to use 2 Food Resources, as we can keep Cultural control of the Cow
The Great Lighthouse becomes our target, with it being reasonable to build with 7 Hammers per turn from working the Cow, the Deer, a GH Mine, and the City Centre square, plus Hammers from Whipping

Cons: Not a lot--this location should be one of our primary considerations
We'd give up on the Engineering Lightbulb idea, but it is possible that we'd give up on that idea anyway if we find a lot of seafood along the southern coast and/or the western coast (assuming a Europe-like map)
We only have 2 Forest Chops instead of 3 Forest Chops for The Great Lighthouse
We aren't on a River
Spoiler Forget the River :
Seriously, ignore the fact that we aren't on a River--Wheat (2 Health, as we'll have Granaries everywhere), Cow, and Deer, plus our free 2 Health = 6 Health... we're unlikely to be bigger than Size 6 for a while due to whipping and/or Settler production, and by then we'll have additional sources of Health

We don't get a Fur within our big fat cross
Spoiler Missing out on the Fur isn't so bad :
A G Cow is a much stronger early-game Resource: Working a Fur Camp gives us an extra +1 Hammer toward building a Settler. Working a G Cow Pasture gives us an extra +4 Hammers toward building a Settler. That's 4 times as good of a square for REXing.



Green X = Cow with Fur

Pros: We get the Cow and the Deer for a 2-Food capital
We get a Fur
We get a Hills square
We would leave open the Engineering Lightbulbing approach
We'd be settling adjacent to the Deer for a 12-turn Worker instead of a 13-turn Worker for any location that has the Deer in the big fat cross but isn't settled adjacent to the Deer
We're on a River (seriously, don't put a lot of weight on this point)

Cons: Not a lot of production
Can't build The Great Lighthouse


Blue X = Cow with Hills

Pros: We get the Cow and the Deer for a 2-Food capital
We get 3 Hills squares
We get 3 Forests to Chop

Cons: We can't build The Great Lighthouse
We miss out on a Fur Resource within our capital
We aren't on a River (again, not an important point)


Purple X = Production Heavy
Pros:
We get the Cow and the Deer for a 2-Food capital
It's got amazing production with at least 4 Grassland Hills squares
It can build The Great Lighthouse, The Colossus, and a military quite easily

Cons:
It only has 1 G Riv square (of the visible squares) versus Blue X's 8 G Riv squares, so I think that unless there is something fabulous (such as a Gold Resource in the hidden squares to the east of the Cow), Blue X would beat settling 1 E of the G Cow in terms of Commerce



Red X isn't strong enough, in my mind, with only 1 useable Food Resource for a long period of time, and that Resource also requiring a Work Boat instead of a Worker.

Orange X would be a solid choice if Churchill's Culture were around, but it is not really a valid option due to his Culture stealing both the Fish and the Cow.

Yellow X is probably one of our strongest contenders for a "we want the Cow" scenario, with it being a strong choice for playing a Great Lighthouse game while also having a lot of G Riv Cottages (or G Riv Farms, which can be strong, too) to work.

Green X is there in case we insist on settling on a River and insist on getting the Fur within our capital's big fat cross.

Blue X is stronger than Green X in terms of production. Yes, we'd need a Road instead of a River for our first Trade Route connection, but we're going to have enough Worker turns to get up a 2-turn Road to connect us to the River. I would probably suggest this option as being another top contender, with us picking this option if we would rather go for an Engineering Lightbulb approach over a Great Lighthouse approach.

Purple X would be a strong production capital--4 Grassland Hills squares at a minimum and enough Food to work them. We wouldn't focus on Cottage Commerce and instead would try to grow our capital really large using Monarchy, so that our Great Lighthouse's Trade Routes would get really big, giving us Commerce from Trade Routes instead of Cottages, allowing us to get both Hammers (from our citizens) and Commerce (for free from Trade Routes). I would also place this option as a top contender, with it being a bit unorthodox (moving away from the Rivers) but successful, as the City would keep growing due to having plenty of Grassland Hills squares to work. We could definitely skip Bronze Working on the way to Alphabet as we would simply grow into working more GH Mines and wouldn't need to whip our capital here. Two SGOTMs ago we hurt ourselves by whipping our capital a lot, meaning that a lot of our green riverside cottageable land didn't get worked much anyway, as we were low on production and had to get that production via whipping.


So, to me, if we want the Cow, and I think that it's a good enough Resource to chase after it, as it means getting 2 good Cities in our visible area instead of just 1, we're looking at choosing between Yellow X, Blue X, and Purple X, with only Green X coming into play if people somehow feel that 6 early Health (plus temporary additional Health from Forests) somehow isn't enough.

I wouldn't worry too much about missing the Fur Resources--additional Cities can pick those up.


I did play around with the idea of making the Purple X City our City #2, which is possible to settle before Churchill's Culture gets there (assuming that he doesn't have a Holy City in his capital), but the City had a 6% chance of going into City Revolt every turn for a long time and we didn't actually control the G Cow Resource. No, if we want the G Cow, we need to stake out our claim using both our capital and our Christian Missionary to do so (we can stay in No State Religion and still get the +1 Culture).


What would we do if we went for The Great Lighthouse but not an Engineering Lightbulb? Well, for one, we'd spam Coastal Cities and reap the rewards of Foreign Trade Routes, without really having to worry about having over-expanded, as The Great Lighthouse would counter our increased Maintenance Costs. We'd get a Great Merchant that we could use to Lightbulb Civil Service, and then take the more traditional path via Civil Service -> Education to secure Oxford University relatively early on.

Oxford University can be good with Cottages, but it can also be good with a large-sized capital with strong Trade Routes; both Cottages and Trade Routes give us base Commerce that gets multiplied by Bureaucracy and then multiplied again by our Science multipliers, such as a Library and an Academy.

Yellow X would focus more on whipping while Purple X would focus more on growing into working additional Hills squares.
 
England could have 2 or more cities.
To get the percentages shown by the Religious Advisor (F7) Judaism needs to be available in 4 size 1 cities, Islam in 4 size 1 cities, and Christianity in 5 size 1 cities.
In all, the total of religions in cities needs to equal 17 (I can stick with the original 12 AI cities by adding extra religions to cities) to get the percentages shown by the Religious Advisor. I am going to have to test and see if religion in barbarian cities could account for the extra cities I need.

If we are seeing the culture boundary for York not London the culture battle for the cow and fish favors us.

We will know if the English culture boundary we see is London's when we hit enter and a boundary expansion occurs; if no expansion the boundary is York's.
 
London is traditionally located in a "screw you with Culture, France" location on an Earth Map (and vice-versa with Paris' location).

That said, it is true that there are 15 Total Votes on the F8 RESOLUTIONS screen, meaning that there are 3 extra population points out there that aren't Barb population points, as our test game shows 12 Total Votes. Barb Cities do not count in this Total Votes count, so either some Cities are greater than Size 1 or there are extra Cities.

EDIT: To clarify, there could be Barb population points out there. I think that the normal way to tell is on Turn 0 before the AIs have settled their Cities using some sort of a trick... I don't recall what that trick is or whether that trick will still work with pre-settled AI Cities.

However, we have met Churchill and we can see from the Scoreboard that he only has 1 City.

Thus, I believe that we can conclusively say that London is placed to "screw France," if we let it.


:newyear: EDIT: In case it wasn't obvious, if we don't feel like doing a whole ton of testing at this point (it's hard to do when there are so many options available), and we want to push the game forward one more turn, then I'd recommend:
moving the Settler 1 N G Riv, 1 NE G For (1 N of the G Riv Deer For and 1 S of the G Cow) to the Blue X

Moving there gives us the shortest amount of settling time for any of:
Yellow X
Green X
Blue X
Purple X

I don't really see Red X or Orange X as being valid options, and I do think that it's going to be worth it to fight for control of the G Cow Resource.

Spoiler The Settling map again :
c7c3d0838f.png



:newyear: EDIT: As for Turn 1 scouting priorities, I'd really like to get an idea of whether we have more seafood Resources out there or not. If we do have more, I'll much more heavily weight a Great Lighthouse approach.

In that regard, I'd probably send:
the Scout 1 SE G > 1 SW G (is it Grassland? It looks like it is)
the Christian Missionary 1 W G Riv (1 S of the Fish) and then wait to move it
the Warrior 1 NE G (1 E of the G Cow)

Later, we would decide between exploring a bit more Coast with the Missionary by moving it 1 W G For (1 SW of the Fish)
OR
sending it back to spread Christianity in our capital by moving it 1 SE G Riv For (1 NE of the G Riv Fur For)--when all else is equal, end our units on squares that won't prevent Forest growth (Forests can't grow on squares where units end their turns, but Forests can spread from squares where units end their turns)
 
London is traditionally located in a "screw you with Culture, France" location on an Earth Map (and vice-versa with Paris' location).

That said, it is true that there are 15 Total Votes on the F8 RESOLUTIONS screen, meaning that there are 3 extra population points out there that aren't Barb population points, as our test game shows 12 Total Votes. Barb Cities do not count in this Total Votes count, so either some Cities are greater than Size 1 or there are extra Cities.

EDIT: To clarify, there could be Barb population points out there. I think that the normal way to tell is on Turn 0 before the AIs have settled their Cities using some sort of a trick... I don't recall what that trick is or whether that trick will still work with pre-settled AI Cities.

However, we have met Churchill and we can see from the Scoreboard that he only has 1 City.

Thus, I believe that we can conclusively say that London is placed to "screw France," if we let it.
Thanks, this helps me understand how some of the info on the screens ties together.

If I change a city's size from 1 to 2, it will replace a size 1 city on the F9 screen, so for now, I am going on the assumption that there are no cities greater than size 1.
 
In terms of movement notation for two move units maybe something like NE>N or E>SE.

I'm not sure we should be dismissing fur that easily. Hammerwise its pretty naff but research wise its pretty good early game: +4cpt means 13cpt instead of 10cpt, which means a 130 beaker tech learned 3 turns earlier, so earlier BW, earler writing etc.

I'm also not sure we should be opting for Glight this early on. We can see some coastal tiles north and south for sure but we don't know how much coast there is. We have been told its a pangea like map which suggests limited overseas trade routes. Going back to Earth 18 analogies, Spain and Morocco are on the same continent (but you have to travel a long way to get there by land), North and South America are the same continent though blocked by a mountain. I'm not ruling Glight out but we need more exploration.

We should be able to test varying starting locations if there's sufficient interest. Maybe look for milestones like built one settler, 2 workers, pop 4 capital and research hunting AH mining BW fishing (in any order).

A thought on yellow X: If London pops borders before yellow X builds WB can WB get to fish peacefully?
 
If I change a city's size from 1 to 2, it will replace a size 1 city on the F9 screen, so for now, I am going on the assumption that there are no cities greater than size 1.
That deduction sounds pretty solid. A thing to note about an AI having 2 Cities is that it will very quickly (if not already) have Trade Routes between its two Cities, increasing its overall Commerce.

Also, some Wonders don't seem to get built when an AI has fewer Cities, but an AI starting with 2 Cities might be far more likely to start competing on Wonders (think Deity AIs with 2 Settlers, but settling faster since the Cities are pre-settled).

Further, an AI with 2 Cities is less likely to accidentally mess itself up by going Archer-first instead of Worker-first.

We don't know whether BSPollux even handed out Workers to some of the AIs.


Also, I noticed that when I took Judaism away from London, Thebes lost its status as Holy City for Judaism. :confused:
A World Builder bug is that whenever you remove a Religion from any City, that Religion's Holy City icon will get unselected, even when that Religion's Holy City is in a completely different City than the City which you edited. Basically, if you remove a Religion from a City via World Builder, expect to have to reassign the Holy City for that Religion.


I'm not sure we should be dismissing fur that easily. Hammerwise its pretty naff but research wise its pretty good early game: +4cpt means 13cpt instead of 10cpt
A second City with a Trade Route and working a Commerce-earning square (probably the Wheat) also counts as +4 Commerce per turn. That's +1 Commerce from the capital's Trade Route, +1 Commerce from City 2's Trade Route, +1 Commerce from City's 2 City Centre square, and +1 Commerce from whatever square City 2 works.

Of course, a second City probably comes with empire-wide -2 Gold from Maintenance, but you still see a net gain by settling a second City that connects Trade Routes between your two Cities.

The Fur Resources are nice, but they aren't as nice as, say, Grassland Gems.

I'm not sure what we're comparing against, but lets say Green X's G Riv Fur For Camp vs Blue X's GH Wine Mine.
2 F + 1 H + 4 C
vs
1 F + 3 H + 1 C

There's a slight advantage to the GH Wine Mine when building a Settler. But, to me, it's not about comparing those squares against each other, but the fact that Blue X has 3 GH squares while Green X only has 1 GH square.

With so many G Riv squares around, whether we get them in the capital or not, I'm more concerned about getting Hammers than getting Commerce. Bureaucracy multiplies both, so it's nice to have a capital that gets both.

But, what it comes down to is BSPollux giving us the challenge of Churchill's Culture--either we try to do something about it by settling right in the thick of it or we let that whole area go.


I'm also not sure we should be opting for Glight this early on.
I don't profess to know all of the answers. Our test game shows that half of the AIs have coastal capitals. But, maybe our test game needs more land added to it.
Test game numbers from hovering over our Leader name in the Scoreboard:
774 Population
848 Land

Real game:
873 Population
1328 Land

What those numbers should tell us is that the real game has a lot more land than our test map has.

Also, the richness of the land is much poorer on average than in the test game, meaning that there is likely a higher percentage of undesirable terrain (Desert, Tundra, Ice, Peaks, etc) in the real game.

We don't know if the real game's map looks similar to ours, perhaps with some sort of Americas continents out there, or with some sort of an Ice belt, or whether the pangaea is simply thicker everywhere.

What I can say is that if we settle our capital on the coast and have plans for 2 additional coastal Cities, adding, say, 2 coastal Cities from Churchill later, and we've already got ourselves an extra 10 Trade Routes.

If we are lucky enough to have any islands on the map, settling one when having The Great Lighthouse is an instant boost to one's empire, rather than the typical drain on Gold that new Cities cost.

One beauty of Trade Routes is that they come for free. Another beauty is that as your Cities grow, so do the value of the Trade Routes.

The big questions with going for a Wonder are:
1. Would we be better off skipping the required techs?
2. Could we get beaten to building said Wonder?
3. Would we be likely to capture the Wonder from a nearby AI instead or would we be more likely to not benefit from it until near the end of the game if a far-away AI builds it?

For The Great Lighthouse, since it requires both Sailing and Masonry, and because The Pyramids are gone meaning that less AIs might go for Masonry early on, we can probably get the Wonder ourselves if we want it.

An alternative option is to plan on all-out warring, and as long as we get some sort of Strategic Resource, we could plan our whole strategy around warring instead. It would be nice to have a way to economically recover from an early war, and The Great Lighthouse can help to do so. It can also help to propel us deep enough tech-wise to get a superior militaristic tech advantage.


I'm not ruling Glight out but we need more exploration.
Which is why I'm suggesting exploring more of the Coast on our Turn 1. There's also the option of settling a coastal capital and not building The Great Lighthouse, but hoping to capture it later for a delay in its benefits, while also leaving open the ability to build Galleys in case England is on an island.


A thought on yellow X: If London pops borders before yellow X builds WB can WB get to fish peacefully?
Just to be clear, by settling on the Yellow X, we won't be netting our Fish, as we won't get to use it for long enough. Churchill will net it for us and we'd use Culture to eventually get its use (after we hit 500 Culture, we'll be in a position to Culturally steal it by settling on the Yellow X).

But, to answer your question:
If a seafood Resource is in an AI's territory, we cannot net it. But, we can gift a Work Boat to an AI and that AI will use the Work Boat for netting purposes. However, we must first have Open Borders with a target AI in order to gift it any units.


We should be able to test varying starting locations if there's sufficient interest. Maybe look for milestones like built one settler, 2 workers, pop 4 capital and research hunting AH mining BW fishing (in any order).
I'm fine with doing more testing, and I enjoy testing (perhaps more than the next person), but I have limited time to do so presently. I'm also much more useful at micro testing than I am at macro testing--i.e. I can help to optimize a given path, but I get so bogged down in the details for each test run that it is hard for me to pump out a lot of alternative test approaches.

I'm content to wait a few more days before deciding where to send our Settler if people are willing to keep testing. On the other hand, if we're convinced that we want to get the Cow by settling adjacent to it, then we can also push forward a bit further without any loss of options.

Your choice of milestones seems good enough to me. We might not go for all of them in the real game, but they at least give us a balanced target to try to reach. Of course, we'll ultimately have to balance out the test results with what our goals will be. For example, settling in place might give us the strongest start according to your suggested targets (no delay in settling, can work the Deer right away, can Farm the Wheat as soon as the Worker is built, no loss of turns from moving, and the Wheat gives +1 Commerce), but we may find that settling there creates other strategic implications, such as there ending up not being a suitable place to put a second City nearby.

EDIT: One major variable, though, is that tech research can be increased simply by meeting more AIs who know a given tech. Perhaps it would be worth having a test game where we're cut off from the AIs other than Churchill via a carved-out area of water, just so that we won't meet other AIs. Or, we can just be aware that differences in Commerce may be due to such factors as having met 6 AIs who know Hunting in one test game and not having met them in another test game. I, for one, plan to just fortify the Warrior and Scout to speed up testing.

We might also not want to meet Christian AIs who demand a turn of Anarchy out of us (or else we just turn them down) as part of asking us to run Christianity for our State Religion.


As for other Wonder options--I'm not too interested in chasing after The Great Wall without Stone; with that many AIs, several AIs are bound to try building it even without a Stone Resource that they could improve, meaning that we'd have to make a lot of sacrifices just to get it ourselves, and we still wouldn't be guaranteed to get it. The lack of Raging Barbs and the crowdedness of our test map also decreases its value.

There is no bonus Resource for The Great Lighthouse, so it's unlikely that an AI could poach it out from under us if we really want it.


:newyear: EDIT: Attached is a quick test run settled at the Purple X.
Turn 45, 2200 BC
Learned Animal Husbandry -> Hunting -> Mining -> Bronze Working (I didn't Chop) -> Fishing
Paris Size 4; 4 / 28 Food
Working Cow Pasture, Deer Camp, Wine Mine, GH Mine

Orleans Size 3; 15 / 26 Food
Working Wheat Farm, Fur Camp, and G For

Hammers not counting Settler 2 and not counting Workers 1 and 2:
Barracks = 50 + 9
Warriors = 15 + 15 + 9
Settlers = 15
Total = 113 Hammers

Just a bit of extra Commerce than the requested techs.

I ended the turn a whole bunch after that and we kept control of the Cow the whole time... I just kept ending the turn and selecting Settlers as build items, ending up with an additional 8 Settlers by Turn 85 (and it would be easy to get more if we tried). So, yes, if there are a few decent coastal locations and we decide to secure The Great Lighthouse, I think that we really could go for a Settler-spamming game, some of which could be gifted to an AI or two to help them them up to Friendly status.
 

Attachments

If we as a team are committed to grabbing the cow tile then we have to lose (at least) one turn moving the settler north and we can forget red and orange.

We could for instance move settler onto blue spot this turn and explore a bit more before reaching a final decision on capital location.

If anyone thinks we should forget about the cow tile then it would be good to hear from them.
 
Tested green spot to T45.

Built 2 workers, settler, barracks, 2 warriors.

Tech: hunting, AH, mining, BW, fishing, pottery.

Paris pop4 24/28. Working cow, deer, gh mine, fur.

Orleans pop 4 4/28. Working wheat, fur, forest, wine mine.

Breaking even at 20 bpt.

edit: Imho its quite easy to boost early production by chopping and whipping but harder to boost early commerce.
 
Thanks for trying to help on this, Dhoom:

"Logs
Okay, in my BUFFY Options (Ctrl + Alt + o), which is actually entitled "BUG Mod Options, on the Logging tab, I have got "Enable Logging" and "Start Automatically" both selected, with a Path value of "C:\temp" If I put in 'C:\temp' where/how would I go to get to C:\temp and copy the log?

If I play some turns, I get a text file which matches our Leader's Name inside of C:\temp Which would be located where?

For example: C:\temp\Test-SG23.txt

Note to CactusPete: If you do not actually have a D:\ drive in your "My Computer" area of Windows (press the Windows key + e to open up "My Computer" aka "Computer" inside of a file browsing program called Windows Explorer), then D:\Logs isn't going to work for you. When I press and open, there is indeed no D:\drive, nor is there a C:\drive.
 
There's limited information to base a plan on, so some flexibility would seem prudent. In particular, let's retain the option of capturing an early worker, followed by a fairly early city capture(s).

Dhoom's all out warring may be the quickest way to victory:

"An alternative option is to plan on all-out warring, and as long as we get some sort of Strategic Resource, we could plan our whole strategy around warring instead. It would be nice to have a way to economically recover from an early war (Early war does not necessarily reduce the treasury.), and The Great Lighthouse can help to do so. The GLH is generally not so great on a Pangaea map; moreover, building it early enough to assure completing it before the AI greatly reduces the early production of production city(s), barracks, roads, and units. It can also help to propel us deep enough tech-wise to get a superior militaristic tech advantage." In Vanilla, at least, it is usually not at all difficult to conquer most of the world with cats, WEs/maces, and eventually knights

Not sold on committing early to rushing to bulb Engineering either, as GP farm is not a good place to produce units.
 
While I remain in favour of green X for a commerce heavy capital I reckon that a bit more information would perhaps resolve some issues particularly in regard to location of second and third cities (these might of course be changed by the (unlikely) discovery of copper or horses in our immediate vicinity).

I would therefore suggest (given that no-one has argued in favour of SIP) that we move settler N>NE to finish on 'blue X'. Hit return. Check various screens for any new information. Move warrior NW, move missionary W>pause, move scout SE>pause, upload game/screenshots then keep debating.
 
While I remain in favour of green X for a commerce heavy capital I reckon that a bit more information would perhaps resolve some issues particularly in regard to location of second and third cities (these might of course be changed by the (unlikely) discovery of copper or horses in our immediate vicinity).

I would therefore suggest (given that no-one has argued in favour of SIP) that we move settler N>NE to finish on 'blue X'. Hit return. Check various screens for any new information. Move warrior NW, move missionary W>pause, move scout SE>pause, upload game/screenshots then keep debating.
I like the scouting suggestion, but favor settling on the purple X.
Test Game
Paris founded on purple X spot, Orleans founded on yellow circle spot, Lyons founded 3W 1SW of Paris (gets rice and stone).
Paris builds the Great Lighthouse in 675BC on its 1 water tile.:lol: (Used 3 chops and 27 hammer overflow from a whipped spy.)
Tech path was Hunting->Animal Husbandry->Mining->Bronze Working->Pottery->Writing->Alphabet. Traded for Fishing, Sailing, and Masonry, the techs needed to build the GLH and probably screwed up bulbing Engineering.
 
Troubleshooting for CP
When I press and open, there is indeed no D:\drive, nor is there a C:\drive.
You pretty much have to have a C:\ drive if you are using Windows; finding it just becomes the problem to solve.

Can you please clarify which version of Windows you are using, so that we might try to provide the most accurate instructions for finding a file on your computer? Windows 7? 8? 10?

If you open a program such as Notepad, you should be able to go to its File menu, choose Open, and then in the "File name" textbox, type in:
C:\temp
and press Enter while your cursor is still in the "File name" textbox.
If that directory exists on your computer, it should get opened, and you should be able to see all of the text files that exist in that directory.


Tech Path
If we settle by Hills squares, I think that we can safely skip Bronze Working on our way to Alphabet, using the Mines for our early production purposes. I'm even highly tempted to skip Pottery, since Granaries are less useful if you've already grown your Cities somewhat prior to learning both of Pottery and Bronze Working.

Granaries are amazing once you can Chop or Whip them, but they also have an up-front cost that we might be better off delaying paying if we have additional Mines to grow into working.

The sooner that we get to Alphabet, the sooner that we can start building everything that we might want to build... Granaries, a Lighthouse, Monuments for +1 Happiness and their ability to help against Churchill's Culture, etc.


I went for the non-intuitive Animal Husbandry -> Hunting at the Purple X spot, as doing so saved Worker actions at the cost of not getting the bonus to research on Animal Husbandry from knowing Hunting. If we can get to Alphabet more quickly, we'll have already made up this cost, although both tech paths (AH -> Hunt; Hunt -> AH) should be compared against each other to determine the best overall benefit (maybe we don't mind losing some Worker actions in order to earn more Flasks per turn). Learning Hunting first saves us 2 turns of research on Animal Husbandry, but if we get to Alphabet quickly enough, those turns may not matter at all.

We only get +1 Flask per turn on researching Hunting by knowing 6 AIs who know Hunting, and the AIs start with free Archery but not free Hunting, so meeting multiple AIs early on doesn't necessarily help us and may actually hurt us with a quick-Alphabet approach; if we only know, say, 3 or 4 AIs when we know Alphabet, we can get the "easy-to-trade" techs (Archery, Fishing if we want it, Bronze Working, and Mysticism) before meeting too many other AIs, so that only the AIs whom we had met at that time will increase their We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced counters against us for taking those relatively cheap techs in trade. Then, we plan to spam Cities followed by spamming Military Units in order to put heads on pikes for anyone who dares to tell us that we are too advanced to trade with them.


Capital Settling Location
I did play around with other alternatives to getting the Cow, such as settling 1 N on the G Riv (1 W of the Deer), then settling a second City 2 E of the Cow, but we just don't get control of the Cow square that way. I'm convinced that if we want to get the Cow, we have to settle adjacent to it.

The only real concern that I still have is whether London is a Holy City... we should test that possibility, as then a Shrine would appear instead Churchill settling his first Great Prophet, putting even more Cultural pressure on us. If he has a Holy City, then we might need to self-tech Mysticism prior to learning Alphabet for the early Monument, to give us +1 Culture and eventually +2 Culture out of it, as well as +1 Happiness. Or, perhaps we simply use our Mines to pump out a quick Library.

:newyear: EDIT: Okay, I played out the Purple X location with Churchill having the Jewish Holy Shrine (and him later building the Holy Shrine with his first Great Prophet) and with us exploring with the Missionary 1 W on Turn 1 and then spreading Christianity as soon as possible after that bit of extra exploration. I teched Animal Husbandry -> Hunting -> Mining -> Writing -> Alphabet. I slow-built a Library in our capital using the production from GH Mines, then I built a Monument after getting Mysticism in trade for Alphabet. As of Turn 80, we still own the Cow square with it being 50% ours and 49% Churchill's, and our capital is 67% ours, 32% his. That's more than enough evidence for us to be able to keep control of the Cow square for long enough to pump out more Culture-producing items, such as The Great Lighthouse or a Monastery so that we won't lose control of the Cow. So, I am no longer concerned.
 
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