SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

London will require galleys plus units and Berlin will require massive forces, so why are they priorities. I'm fine with Hamburg, but that makes sense only if we can get there before we have to negotiate Peace. Why is there no discussion of capturing Lisbon? It will likely (we should have a better idea next turn when our scout can see it) be the easiest city to conquer, and it provides considerable commerce and the ability to whip (perhaps 2 galleys), then produce settlers or workers, then start a unit(s) while growing and whip, etc. Moreover, capturing it speeds the time for capturing Thebes and Alexandra.

Pleased that a barracks is being given serious consideration and concur that mining a hill is a good idea. Both should provide long-term benefits.

Folket, when can you produce a PPP.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If our strategy is based on favouring research as the potential bottleneck should we not be growing Paris and working cottages

If we'd wanted to go that route, we should have fought harder to change our tech order. Going for a military tech instead of an economic tech was when we made that decision. I don't think that we will regret our decision, though, as we need to find ways to increase our Happiness cap before we can work a lot of Cottages.

Consider that it only takes 30 turns to mature Cottages into Villages, and Villages get +1 Commerce from Printing Press, for a total of +4 Commerce each. That's a long time if you only work 1 or 2 at a time, then work another set of 1 or 2 at a time, then another set of them 1 or 2 at a time. But, if we have 4 Cities that can, at some turn in the future, simultaneously work 2 Cottages each, then it won't take much time at all to get our Cottages matured. Before that can happen efficiently, we need to unlock more sources of Happiness.

This does of course mean delaying military build up but that was always going to be the trade-off for early alphabet/academy.

Just to clarify, we felt that Alphabet unlocked our military approach faster--we were getting Bronze Working + Pottery at around Turn 45 with manual research and we ended up with Alphabet on Turn 51. We ended up with more techs in roughly the same amount of time with the Alphabet approach, without significant delay in getting our Granaries up--and, it's when you get your Granaries up that you can pump out a serious military force, hence the emphasis on getting Granaries Chopped ASAP. We're already talking about micro that earns us 14 Food in Paris from the timing of completing the Granary relatively earlier due to having used a Forest Chop. That's quite an efficient Forest Chop.

As for the Academy, we have been running low on Worker turns for a long time, making the most efficient use possible out of our Workers. That's meant improving Resources and Chopping Forests as priorities and thus we haven't yet built any Cottages. The Scientist Specialists were therefore relatively efficient compared to working G Riv or G For squares, particularly when you factor in their GPP that will all get used (later in the game, some Cities' GPP will never amount to a Great Person and thus those GPP don't count for anything useful. Of course, the same could be said of Commerce earned after learning Railroad or Food or Hammers earned at the end of the game after we've completed all of the useful build items that our Cities can produce.)

London will require galleys plus units and Berlin will require massive forces, so why are they priorities.

I'd like us to be ready to strike at Churchill if he gives us an opportunity. In playing out the test game, Churchill starts spamming Axemen and Swordsmen, but he sends Units out with his Settler Parties, at times temporarily leaving London vulnerable for an amphibious assault.

Just like at the start of the game, how we said "oh, it would have been nice if we'd Warrior rushed Joao," it was too late to take advantage of the situation at that time. We need advance planning if we want to take advantage of future opportunities.

I like the idea of grabbing London as it helps us to get a 45 "percent" discount on Espionage Missions against Hatty plus a badly-needed +1 Happiness in all of our Cities. If we don't see an opportunity to strike at London, we can sneak in a Settler into our build queue to Liberate a City to Churchill on his island, which will also help to draw City Defenders out of London to guard his new City (AIs are programmed to stuff 2 City Defenders into all new Cities for the first 10 turns of those Cities' existence).

Getting the Happiness and Culture from Stonehenge is a worthy prize to chase after.

Bonus points if we can also Liberate a City before the war, but if we see an opportunistic chance to take London before then, we'd take London and deal with the consequences later, one option being using the reduced Cultural Borders to have more space for Liberating Cities to Churchill post-war, possibly warring with him again to recapture and Re-Liberate those Cities, as they won't have London's 60% Cultural Defences.


Consider: We need to have "friendly terrain" connecting all portions of our Railroad. Those include our terrain, 1 Vassal's terrain, and Defensive Pact members' terrain. I'm seeing us having a Friendly Churchill and a Friendly Joao, who, partly due to Religion, aren't going to get mad at us for declaring war on a lot of the other AIs (except for the AI with the Christian Holy City; consider that there are 6 AIs out there with non-Christian State Religions, as we haven't yet seen any AI with a Holy City) and thus the hope is that Churchill and Joao won't get too unhappy toward us over time when we declare war on the world. Later, we can gift them some Cities that are hard for us to defend (Russia's or some other AI's Cities) while our Units rampage across of the map. Near the end of the game, we gift Cities to our 2 allies and get Defensive Pacts with them, possibly even gifting them up to Railroad to see if they'll help us for a turn or two in terms of building our Railroad network between Cities.

We're not likely to make it to Communism for State Property, so there will be a limit to how many Cities we should keep, especially Cities that are in City Revolt, and we can't gift Cities to a Vassal. (Cities which can be Liberated to a Vassal can be gifted to a Vassal, but Cities captured from other AIs generally won't fall into that category.)

Churchill and Joao are relatively isolated, so they are less likely to be diplomatic headaches in terms of allies to have around.

Why is there no discussion of capturing Lisbon?

I did mention it. I suggest that we plan to go for Lisbon a bit later, preferably after Joao settles an overseas City but more likely after we gift him an "Africa area" City or two, so that he won't be eliminated when we capture Lisbon and probably also capture his second-settled City, if he makes one like he does in the test game.

We'll already have our mature navy by that point and can consider striking at Lisbon from the seas, particularly if we've just gifted him a City or two toward which he starts sending out his Military Units.

Joao isn't going to REX to anywhere (except hopefully across of the water, but he wasn't doing so in the test game, so I won't count on him doing it and thus we'll need to plan to do it, but we want our military first and then Settlers for gifting need to come a bit later). At best, I saw him park a Chariot near our Stone, but he is programmed only to settle there if he gets a Settler Party on a Galley, which he hasn't done for a long time in the test game. Joao is essentially trapped, so we might as well expect to face a stack of 4+ Archers in a 60% Cultural Defense Lisbon if we just go in the front door.

A bit more subtlety with a Galley drop combined with gifted Cities could make that facing 1 or 2 Archer defenders, while keeping Joao alive, keeping Joao happy toward us, and getting Lisbon as part of the bargain.

If Lisbon had a Happiness Resource, I think that we could put more emphasis on it, but Happiness is soon going to be our biggest bottleneck.

Lisbon will take time to come out of City Revolt. In the short term, we can field a reasonably-sized navy in the north, while it will be harder to get a reasonably-sized navy in the south, as we only have 1 south-coast City and it only has 1 Food Resource.

From a logistics standpoint, it's easier to assemble a northern navy, deal with the northern AIs, then sail southward and deal with the southern AIs. War Chariots are not going to be trivial to deal with, and AIs like to spam their Unique Units, so we'll want a reasonably-big-sized force when we finally strike at Egypt, so that the war can be over with quickly and efficiently.

Also, before we declare war on Egypt, we'll want to make sure that we have time to gift a Tech Theft City to Egypt that already has several Spies in it which have stood stationary there for at least 5 turns each. That's a tall production order to fill while also trying to prepare a reasonably-large-sized army to take on Egypt's forces. It'll be easier to accomplish if we first focus on warring with Germany + England, then have a southern-built Galley sail a Settler or two over to Africa for Joao, then wait for Joao's forces to leave Lisbon to guard that new City or two while our army strikes Lisbon from the seas.

Then, all of our navy and land units will be assembled near Lisbon and can move on to Egypt from there.



On another note--do not park a Warrior inside of Orleans (the north-east City). Doing so drew Frederick's forces in. If I didn't put a City Defender in there, he ignored the City until Turn 96 when I'd randomly built a Chariot in that City, at which point Frederick sent a Spearman toward Orleans. The AIs cheat this way by knowing what you have defending your Cities and they are very wary of you leaving a City empty to the point of not actually attacking it, probably due to being programmed to suspect a trap (i.e. them capturing a City that you wanted them to capture, to give them the Apostolic Palace Religion, to steal techs from them, to clobber their military forces in a 0% Cultural Defence City, etc).


EDIT: As for Frederick--at times, he leaves Hamburg defended only by an Axeman, or maybe an Axeman and an Archer. If we march across of the land, Frederick will have time to stuff more units into Hamburg (assuming that Frederick settles a City to the west of Hamburg and 1 S of the G Sheep like he does in the test game before we have a chance to assemble an army). If we can strike from the seas, we might be able to attack Chariot vs Axeman from the seas or else can drop off a stack of forces on the G Riv that is 1 S of Hamburg and attack on the following turn, capturing ourselves another City that will make use of The Great Lighthouse's Trade Routes and cutting Frederick off from being able to build pesky Galleys.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I'd like us to be ready to strike at Churchill if he gives us an opportunity. In playing out the test game, Churchill starts spamming Axemen and Swordsmen, but he sends Units out with his Settler Parties, at times temporarily leaving London vulnerable for an amphibious assault.

I like the idea of grabbing London as it helps us to get a 45 "percent" discount on Espionage Missions Why does London help us with espionage against Hats? against Hatty plus a badly-needed +1 Happiness in all of our Cities. If we don't see an opportunity to strike at London, we can sneak in a Settler into our build queue to Liberate a City to Churchill on his island That assumes there will still be space on his island for another city, and it's one more thing to build before we can capture another city., which will also help to draw City Defenders out of London to guard his new City (AIs are programmed to stuff 2 City Defenders into all new Cities for the first 10 turns of those Cities' existence).

Getting the Happiness and Culture from Stonehenge is a worthy prize to chase after. No doubt, but would argue that it should not be our first order of business because it will take too long.

Bonus points if we can also Liberate a City before the war Wondering if this isn't being too clever.,

Consider: We need to have "friendly terrain" connecting all portions of our Railroad. Those include our terrain, 1 Vassal's terrain, and Defensive Pact members' terrain. I'm seeing us having a Friendly Churchill and a Friendly Joao, who, partly due to Religion, aren't going to get mad at us for declaring war on a lot of the other AIs Churchill and Joao are relatively isolated, so they are less likely to be diplomatic headaches in terms of allies to have around. They won't get mad at us if we wipe them out soon, and later find another AI to gift cities to.

I did mention it. I suggest that we plan to go for Lisbon a bit later, preferably after Joao settles an overseas City but more likely after we gift him an "Africa area" City or two, so that he won't be eliminated when we capture Lisbon and probably also capture his second-settled City, if he makes one like he does in the test game. And the problem with J eliminated is? He's not going to be a great trading partner, isolated and under-populated as he is and likely will remain.

We'll already have our mature navy by that point and can consider striking at Lisbon from the seas, particularly if we've just gifted him a City or two toward which he starts sending out his Military Units. That will take too long to accomplish.

Joao isn't going to REX to anywhere (Joao is essentially trapped, so we might as well expect to face a stack of 4+ Archers in a 60% Cultural Defense Lisbon if we just go in the front door. We'll know more about what he's up to next turn, but the longer we wait, the better defenders he'll likely have, especially if he get IW and has iron. Let's look at the opportunity for attack provided by his moving units to settle a second city to his east.

Lisbon will take time to come out of City Revolt. In the short term, we can field a reasonably-sized navy in the north, while it will be harder to get a reasonably-sized navy in the south as we only have 1 south-coast City and it only has 1 Food Resource. We can get a galley from Cognac to Lisbon quicker than to London, but that's beside the point because, if we attack exclusively with HAs, we can attack just as fast from our scout's present location as with unloading galleys.

From a logistics standpoint, it's easier to assemble a northern navy, deal with the northern AIs, then sail southward and deal with the southern AIs. War Chariots are not going to be trivial to deal with, and AIs like to spam their Unique Units, so we'll want a reasonably-big-sized force when we finally strike at Egypt, so that the war can be over with quickly and efficiently. Concur with the concern about war chariots. We may be able to pre-empt their spamming by pillaging his horses quickly or perhaps using a spy on them. Moreover, if we take Lisbon soon with HAs only, then we will have the option of moving them north quickly while we build northern galleys and perhaps gift a tech city to Egypt.

On another note--do not park a Warrior inside of Orleans (the north-east City). Doing so drew Frederick's forces in. If I didn't put a City Defender in there, he ignored the City until Turn 96 when I'd built a Chariot in that City, at which point Frederick sent a Spearman toward Orleans. The AIs cheat this way by knowing what you have defending your Cities and they are very wary of you leaving a City empty, probably being programmed to suspect a trap (i.e. them capturing a City that you wanted them to capture, to give them the Apostolic Palace Religion, to steal techs from them, to clobber their military forces in a 0% Cultural Defence City, etc).

I think that may be the case in Vanilla too.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, so with the Barracks build approach, we don't need to finish research for a while, but there's also not a lot of benefit in delaying research, other than reducing the chance of AIs piggybacking off of our chosen tech.

It looks as though it would be better to build a Mine on the GH that is 1 S of Orleans, as we'll earn another 5 Food out of the Orleans Granary by whipping the Granary that one turn sooner.

I see us getting the Academy and our first Horse Archer on Turn 68, 1280 BC, with us already having an Axeman, having just whipped a second Galley, and soon being able to start whipping Units out of Orleans and Lyons.

So, we can't use the Academy to save Flasks on researching Horseback Riding, although we could delay Horseback Riding by a bit so that we'll accumulate more Gold instead of more Flasks earned in Currency via our Scientist Specialists (i.e. the Flasks from the Scientist Specialists can go toward Horseback Riding instead of toward Currency). Also, delaying the completion of Horseback Riding means that AIs will be less likely to copy our research path, since they don't copy partially-completed techs, only completed techs.


Note that Galleys and Barracks also provide Power, so our Power will climb by building those.


The test game has some Ocean squares that block boats moving northward out of XO Cognac. But, in the real game, those squares are Coast squares, so I just breathed a sigh of relief. However, what's interesting is that the real game has extra Coast squares--squares that are normally Ocean squares are instead Coast squares.

The World Builder is tricky in this regard, as it has 3 water squares that can be laid:
Coast = forces a square to be Coast, regardless of where it gets placed
Ocean = forces a square to be Ocean, regardless of where it gets placed
Change plot to an ocean = will adjust the water square to either be Coast or Ocean depending upon what happens with the terrain on the surrounding squares

It looks as though Jersey Joe put in some extra "Ocean" squares, while BSPollux put in some extra "Coast" squares. One strategic implication is that Galleys, Triremes, and Work Boats (prior to learning Astronomy in BtS) can sail across of oceans that are made out of Coast squares, as appears to be the case to the north of the Orleans (north-east City) area in the real game.


Another option could be to delay Granaries, but when you can earn between 12 to 15 Food every time that you grow your City, and you can convert that Food into roughly double the number of Hammers, those Granaries pay off quite quickly.

For Lyons, after our Granary, we might do something a bit tricky, such as 1-pop-whipping Chariots until we can overflow enough Hammers to 1-pop-whip a Horse Archer, meaning that our City which is furthest from the warfront can contribute by sending in fast-moving Units.

Meanwhile, Orleans, with its 2 Food Resources, can probably focus more on whipping Horse Archers followed by Axemen.

Paris, being Happiness-limited, will probably focus on 2-pop-whipping the occasional Horse Archer and then stagnating for a bit while slow-building Settlers.

XO Cognac and probably contribute 3 Galleys while building The Great Lighthouse and that'll be it for Units until we get our Wonder.


The micro has Paris hiring and firing Scientists, and Paris and XO Cognac swapping control of the G Copper Mine square a lot.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Why does London help us with espionage against Hats?

Here's what happens:
If we have all of the Culture in a City that we gift to Hatty, we get "-50% for City Culture" as a discount off of the "Base Cost" of an Espionage Mission performed in a City that we gift to Hatty at 3 S of Paris--but only if that City has earned at least 1 Culture of its own.

If we gift a City without earning its own Culture, even though Paris' Culture is overwhelming, the City gets zero credit from that fact if the City itself hasn't made at least 1 of its own Culture.

We could whip a Monument, but then we'd gift that Monument to Hatty, and the Monument would disappear when we recaptured the City. We could also capture Stonehenge, which would save us from whipping a Monument, since Stonehenge would give us a free Monument, but Hatty would not get that Monument when we gift her the City.

That 50% discount will reduce a bit over time as Hatty gets more Culture in the City (due to her being a Creative Leader), and it will reduce faster if Hatty has a Monument of her own in the City.

That assumes there will still be space on his island for another city

Worst case, we have to gift a Settler to Churchill and let him settle within his Cultural Borders, in order to draw out some of his London defenders.

and it's one more thing to build before we can capture another city

True, but Paris is going to need to stagnate while slow-building a Settler anyway (otherwise it will just grow into Unhappiness), so we'll have a Settler regardless and it will just be a matter of using it for a City settled 3 S of Paris or used as a gift for Churchill, depending upon whether we can catch Churchill with his pants down without said Settler gift.

They won't get mad at us if we wipe them out soon

Spoken like a true conqueror, but then who will we be pleasing? A non-coastal AI where we have to fight tooth and nail to capture 3 of their heavily-defended Cities only to have to keep rinsing and repeating with Liberating and recapturing those landlocked Cities just to get a Friendly partner?

And the problem with J eliminated is? He's not going to be a great trading partner, isolated and under-populated as he is and likely will remain.

In my most recent test game run, he went for Mathematics and Currency. I'd rather not eliminate him in the short run at a minimum, and he's still a good candiate for longer-term tech-trading due to not meeting a lot of the AIs. If we're going to keep most of the world technologically backward, which seems to be a wise approach if we want to dominate with stacks of Horse Archers in the medium term, then we're only going to have tech-trading partners with AIs who are Friendly toward us or who don't know a lot of the other AIs. Joao and Churchill are relatively isolated at the western edge of the map and thus aren't likely to meet many of the AIs. If the game is as sold "on the box" as being "pangaea-like," then most other AIs will be horrible tech-trading candidates until we can get them up to Friendly status.

We'll already have our mature navy by that point and can consider striking at Lisbon from the seas, particularly if we've just gifted him a City or two toward which he starts sending out his Military Units.

That will take too long to accomplish.

A strategically-placed African gift City can also delay Hatty from REXing, which keeps her below the 4-City limit, before which we'll need to get a stack of Spies in place and gift her a City with the Spies in it.

I'm not seeing how we'd earn enough War Success to get a tech such as Code of Laws in a peace treaty without an efficient Trebuchet war versus a large-sized empire, so tech-theft is the way to go for that tech, which we want badly for unlocking Civil Service.

Let's look at the opportunity for attack provided by his moving units to settle a second city to his east.

I'm not seeing how we'd get enough Units. If we went for a fast Horseback Riding and made 2 Horse Archers instead of a Barracks and a Galley, that's still not enough to capture a City. Even 4 Horse Archers won't be sufficient to go up against a City with Cultural Defences and 3 Military Units in it, and Turn 66 would be the absolute soonest that we could field 4 Horse Archers if we seriously pushed hard for it, without counting time to move the army into place, and that's still too small of an army to go for Lisbon. We could potentially capture Joao's second City (if he builds one) with that army, but to what end? Get a Plains Cow City with most of our forces being decimated? Hatty's Culture is preventing us from using the Fish in that City and the Spice won't be of use until we learn Mathematics, ship over a Worker, build a Fort, and then learn Calendar.

especially if he get IW

The test game is wrong in this regard; Joao has Iron Working in the real game but not in the test game. Churchill and Stalin have Iron Working in the test game, which does not match with the real game, and which is misleading, as it makes it look as though Churchill would trade us Iron Working, but that trade won't happen unless both Churchill and Stalin were to learn Iron Working in the real game.

It's incredibly hard to maintain tech accuracy with the AIs in a World Built game--if that fact weren't true and this game were very predictable, we'd probably have all moved on from playing it from sheer boredom long ago. But, the variability is one of the major replayability factors; however, it's that same variability which makes it tougher and tougher to maintain accuracy of the AIs in a test game.

if we attack exclusively with HAs, we can attack just as fast from our scout's present location as with unloading galleys.

Feel free to lay out a plan for getting enough Horse Archers to make it happen. I'm seeing 4 Horse Archers being able to declare war from that location on Turn 69 at the soonest, and that's without a Barracks, and with us delaying the completion of The Great Lighthouse. If there are 2 Archers, our odds of success are already quite low. If there's a third City Defender, even if it's a Warrior, plan to lose Horse Archers, not be able to capture the City immediately, cry as more Archers get whipped, and then still be unable to capture the City and have to run with our horsetails between our horses' legs.

 

[Folket]

London will require galleys plus units and Berlin will require massive forces, so why are they priorities. I'm fine with Hamburg, but that makes sense only if we can get there before we have to negotiate Peace. Why is there no discussion of capturing Lisbon? It will likely (we should have a better idea next turn when our scout can see it) be the easiest city to conquer, and it provides considerable commerce and the ability to whip (perhaps 2 galleys), then produce settlers or workers, then start a unit(s) while growing and whip, etc. Moreover, capturing it speeds the time for capturing Thebes and Alexandra.

Pleased that a barracks is being given serious consideration and concur that mining a hill is a good idea. Both should provide long-term benefits.

Folket, when can you produce a PPP.

I shall produce a PPP today.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I shall produce a PPP today.

Sounds good. I'll provide what I've got so far so that you can use it as a basis from which to work.

Suggested PPP
Diplo Policy
If an AI asks us to convert to Christianity, say yes?
If an AI asks for a tech, pause play and check with the team, realising that a "yes" may anger other AIs who treat this AI as their Worst Enemy and prevents 10 turns of war, but can also earn us positive Diplo with that AI
If an AI asks us to stop trading with another AI, say no (but also ask ourselves why we got into that situation in the first place)
If an AI asks for a Resource, pause play and check with the team, realising that a "yes" will prevent 10 turns of war, but doesn't really anger other AIs, so it's free positive Diplo if we don't want to go to war with that AI soon

Multiple turn items
Keep our Warrior 1 on the G Riv For that is 2 NE of Orleans (1 E of the Fish) for as long as possible to deter Frederick from settling on the G For 1 SE of there (1 S of the G Sheep)
When we have to retreat our Warrior 1, don't have it move into Orleans (otherwise Frederick will be far more inclined to come at Orleans with a stack)
Try to keep at least one Unit that hasn't moved before doing the double-checking step (say, our Scout) to avoid accidentally advancing the turn too soon

Unknown turn
Watch for Churchill to learn a tech, either by getting a tech that we have (i.e. a tech disappers from the "Wants" column) or by getting a tech that we don't have (a tech appears in either of the "Will Trade" or "Won't Trade" columns)
When Churchill learns his next tech, gift him Alphabet

Stopping Points
Frederick and Churchill meet each other
Frederick threatens our City
We meet a new AI
We want to declare war on an AI
Something unexpected happens


Turn 57, 1720 BC
Trade Iron Working from Hatty <-> Alphabet
Gift Masonry to Joao?


Turn 58, 1680 BC
Paris completes Worker -> builds Granary
XO Cognac completes Granary -> builds Warrior (already in the build queue)

Paris hires 2 Scientists to work: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci
XO Cognac switches Horse to Fish to work: Fish and Cow

Science Rate 100%

Worker in Paris: Rename it to Worker 3
Select it and press Ctrl + 3 to number it

Worker 2 (1 SE of Paris) moves to G For that is 2 W of Lyons (SE of the G Riv Wheat)
Worker 3 (in Paris) moves to GH at 1 S of Orleans (2 E of the G Cow)

Double-checking: Paris Granary has 61 Hammers going into it, Great Scientist in 8 turns, XO Cognac is earning +7 Food, and Horseback Riding in 3 turns


Turn 59, 1640 BC
Paris completes Granary -> builds Barracks
XO Cognac completes Warrior -> builds Lighthouse

Worker 2 Chops G For that is 2 W of Lyons (1 SE of G Riv Wheat)
Worker 3 Mines the GH that is 1 S of Orleans (2 E of the G Cow)

New Warrior forties in XO Cognac

Double-checking: Paris grows in 2 turns, Great Scientist in 7 turns, XO Cognac will put 26 Hammers into a Lighthouse


Turn 60, 1600 BC

Paris fires 2 Scientists and works the G Copper Mine and a G For
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and G For

Science Rate 0%

Double-checking: Paris at Size 5 earns +9 Food, Horseback Riding won't get completed yet


Turn 61, 1560 BC

Paris switches G For to Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 2 Sci

On the F4 ACTIVE screen, cancel Open Borders with Stalin

Worker 1 Roads the G Copper Mine
Worker 2 completes the Chop at 2 W of Lyons (1 SE of the Wheat)

Double-checking: Paris Barracks has 12 / 50 H with + 7 H, Great Scientist in 6 turns, Orleans builds Work Boat in 3 turns


Turn 62, 1520 BC

Paris 2-pop-whips its Barracks
Paris switches Copper -> Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 1 Sci

XO Cognac switches G For -> G Copper Mine
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper

Orleans switches G Riv For -> GH Mine

Lyons nets its Fish and should automatically work it

Worker 2 moves into Lyons (NE G Riv > SE Lyons)

Double-checking: Great Scientist in 9 turns, XO Cognac is putting +20 Hammers into the Lighthouse, Orleans makes +6 Hammers in its Work Boat, and Lyons grows in 2 turns


Turn 63, 1480 BC

Paris completes Barracks -> Builds Axeman
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci

XO Cognac completes Lighthouse -> The Great Lighthouse

EDIT: Worker 1 moves to the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 moves 1 E GH For (1 E of Lyons)
Worker 3 needs to pick a Forest to move to:
Chopping the G Riv For at 1 E of Orleans wouldn't leave Frederick good defensive terrain but would reduce Forest growth chances in the area
The alternative is Chopping the GH For that is 1 SE + 1 S of Orleans (1 NE of the GH Wine)

Double-checking: Great Scientist in 4 turns, XO Cognac has started on The Great Lighthouse


Turn 64, 1440 BC

EDIT: 100% Espionage Rate to make it safer for our Spy to stay alive inside of Churchill's Cultural Borders

Paris completes Axeman -> builds Settler (we're at our Happiness cap at Size 5)
Orleans completes Work Boat -> builds Granary

XO Cognac switches to building a Galley

EDIT: Worker 1 Chops the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 Chops the GH For that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 Chops whichever Forest it moved to

Axeman heads north-east
Orleans Work Boat heads to Orleans' Fish

Double-checking: XO Cognac is building a Galley


Turn 65, 1400 BC

XO Cognac 2-pop-whips its Galley (don't forget!)
XO Cognac switches Horse -> Copper
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, and Horse

Paris switches Sci -> Copper
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 1 Sci

Orleans' Fish gets netted
Orleans works: Fish + Cow

Science Rate 100% in order to learn Horseback Riding this turn

Double-checking: Great Scientist in 4 turns, Paris is making +7 F and +7 H in its Settler, XO Cognac is working its Horse, Orleans is making +7 Food, Horseback Riding will be learned this turn


Turn 66, 1360 BC
Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency

Science Rate 0%

EDIT: Paris switches to building a Spy

Paris switches Copper -> 1 Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci

XO Cognac switches G For -> G Copper Mine
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper

Galley 1 heads west then northward out of XO Cognac

Worker 2 finishes its Chop into Lyons' Granary
Worker 3 finishes its Chop into Orleans' Granary

Double-checking: XO Cognac is making 37 Hammers in The Great Lighthouse


Turn 67, 1320 BC

EDIT: Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency

Orleans 1-pop-whips its Granary
Lyons 1-pop-whips its Granary

EDIT: Worker 1 Moves to the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac (1 SW of the Horse)
Worker 2 builds a Road on the GH that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 needs something to do


If we were to say, Chop another Forest with Worker 3 into a Galley, we could 1-pop-whip a 3rd Galley, thereby having 3 Galleys that could drop units into London.

 

[pigswill]

Something else to throw into the mix is that controlling the land between Paris and Istanbul is essential and other cities are not essential. We don't know where Istanbul is, however given the similarities between the map and RL Europe its likely to be south east of us and that would mean going through Germany or Greece.

Maybe we should consider locating Istanbul and focussing our war efforts on the route there. Its true that acquiring Stonehenge would be nice, acquiring coastal cities from Fred and Joao would also be nice but how confident are we that putting the time and resources into these objectives would speed up victory.

 

[Folket]

I'm relatively certain that conquering everyone is the way to go. What is the earliest date we can have conquered everyone and get railroad. Maybe get 20 cities then wait for cavalry to conquer everyone else.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We don't know where Istanbul is, however given the similarities between the map and RL Europe its likely to be south east of us and that would mean going through Germany or Greece.

I would agree that when zooming out in the real game, that analysis sounds correct.

We can see some Dark Green Culture and it does appear to be to the south-east.

It's hard to tell how the Peaks are fully laid out, but I would imagine from a scenario gameplay perspective that it's possible to get to the Dark Green AI via either German or Greek lands.

Spoiler :

Maybe we should consider locating Istanbul and focussing our war efforts on the route there.

What would you have us doing differently? We're planning on taking down Hamburg, which will be along the critical path as an option instead of taking Berlin (although we'd eventually take Berlin, too, I imagine).

Are you suggesting that we go after Greece? If so, how would you do things differently? We're already planning on putting a Road on the GH (Chopped Forest) square that is 1 E of Lyons. From there, we could Mine the GH Riv Wine, put a Road on the G Riv that is 1 NW of Lyons, then continue the road eastward.

It looks like it will be slow-going without a Road there, though, as the terrain is the kind that will take our Units 1 turn at a time on which to move. So, we'll get a Road to Alex eventually and by then, hopefully he'll have actually built more than 1 City so that we'll have multiple Cities to capture.

Its true that acquiring Stonehenge would be nice, acquiring coastal cities from Fred and Joao would also be nice but how confident are we that putting the time and resources into these objectives would speed up victory.

Egypt is also likely not on the critical path, assuming that "The Orient" means the eastern side of the map.

But, what would we do differently? It looks like the terrain all of the way to Dark Green (the Ottomans?) eats up 2 movement points. Owning Berlin, with its pre-built Roads, would make for much smoother passage, and taking down Hamburg will make it easier to take on Berlin.

While we can go after Greece eventually, it doesn't look like it will be efficient to go after them early on with 2-movement-point Units; let's get our Roads in place and in the meantime, focus on Galley warfare.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Hmmm, I forgot to factor in a very important detail. The cost of Espionage Missions is not what we see on the Ctrl + e screen, due to discounts.

So, our accumulated Espionage Points will have quite a valuable use after all.

There's still a random number factor and we'd have to decide how much risk to take... i.e. would we plan for having a backup Spy?

But, with only 3 turns at a 100% Espionage Rate, we would be able to perform a Support City Revolt Mission if our Spy stays in place for 5 turns.

Spoiler :

We have an 87% chance of success as per the test game. If we have a second Spy there, the first Spy has a 72% chance of success, while the second Spy would have an 87% chance of success.

A Galley that gets whipped out of XO Cognac on Turn 66 could drop off a Spy inside of London on Turn 70, meaning that on Turn 75, we could bring the City Defences down to 0% if our Spy hasn't gotten caught and we've invested a little bit of our Commerce on Espionage.

So, instead of building a Horse Archer on Turn 66, Paris could build a Spy and whip it for overflow into an Axeman.

With 3 Galleys filled with Axemen + Horse Archers + maybe Chariots, and a successful Support City Revolt Mission, London should easily be ours.

If we attempted the Support City Revolt Mission while at Peace and the Mission failed, we wouldn't have to launch the war immediately and could just build up more forces before declaring war.


Now it really feels like we're playing Starcraft... focusing on a tech beeline, using a Dropship to put a Ghost into position, having the Ghost nuke the defences, then sending in the Marines via Dropships to clean up...

 

[Folket]

I like the idea of spies in London. I will consider that.

 

[Folket]

In the test game I saw the german settler party and they did not run away from my warrior. Where should I put our warrior to make them scared of him?

I also noticed that one turn after declaring war the support city revolt was more then 100 EP more expensive. Is that mission more expensive in wars?

It seems like 1C HAs are pretty good at amphibious invasions versus 0 def cities. I think we should consider an amphibious invasion of London if there is only 2 defenders there when our spies are ready. It would deny Churchill the chance to whip defenders and move in other units.

 

[Folket]

We would also be able to use the cheaper cost of city revolt since we can do it before the war starts. And open borders should give our spies a higher chance of success.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Probably a better option for Worker 1 will be to start Chopping at XO Cognac. As nice as it is to get the Fur Camped, a single Chop can earn us more Commerce.

So, we could do:
Turns 61 - 62 Build a Road on the Copper
Turn 63 Move to the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (low chance for that Forest to spread EDIT: and we'll likely later want to put a City at that location to use the Fish that is within Churchill's Cultural Borders)
Turns 64 - 66 Chop the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac
Turn 67 Move to the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac (a Forest that is further away from our empire)
Turns 68 - 70 Chop the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac
Turn 71 Move to the G Riv For that is NE + N of XO Cognac (the Forest that is closest to the rest of our empire, so our following Worker action can be relatively useful)
Turns 72 - 74 Chop the G Riv For that is NE + N of XO Cognac
Turn 75 Move 1 SE G Riv (1 W of Paris) and partially Cottage

Each Chop can earn us a faster The Great Lighthouse, meaning a minimum of +6 Commerce per turn and more likely +12 Commerce per turn. The Fur is worth +3 Commerce per turn. We'd delay the Fur Camp from Worker 1 completing it on Turn 68 to Worker 2 completing it on Turn 73, meaning a loss of +3 Commerce for 5 turns (15 Commerce). But, the 2 extra Chops that we'll be able to fit in should speed up The Great Lighthouse by about 2 to 3 turns (12 to 36 Commerce), while also getting us our Wonder sooner, which matters, since we're competing with the AIs to complete Wonders.

 

[Folket]

I do not understand how you get a least 3 commerce a turn. GLH will give us at least 6 commerce a turn and some extra from foreign trade routes.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

In the test game I saw the german settler party and they did not run away from my warrior. Where should I put our warrior to make them scared of him?

Where Warrior 1 is located is probably about as good as we can do. If we knew exactly when the Settler Party would be moving to the G For where it will settle (1 S of the G Sheep), we could move Warrior 1 to the G For just before the Settler Party would arrive there and then retreat again on the following turn after the Settler had left the Settler Party, but we can't really figure out that timing easily and guessing might just result in our Warrior dying.

By being any closer to Frederick's Cultural Borders, we'd be luring Frederick's patrolling Military Units to "fend off the invader."

I'd say that we've already been somewhat effective at scaring the Settler Party from coming, as Frederick should really have settled already but hasn't done so.

Unfortunately, once we see Frederick's Settler Party on the G For (1 S of the G Sheep), it will be too late to do anything and we might as well retreat (just don't retreat directly into Orleans), probably retreating SW G Riv (1 NE of Orleans) > S G Riv For (1 E of Orleans).

I also noticed that one turn after declaring war the support city revolt was more then 100 EP more expensive. Is that mission more expensive in wars?

If that City has a Trade Route with one of our Cities, we get an extra 20% discount on the cost of a Mission (see my screenshot above again). Once we declare war (or switch into Anarchy for a turn), Trade Routes disappear and thus the extra 20% discount goes away.

It seems like 1C HAs are pretty good at amphibious invasions versus 0 def cities. I think we should consider an amphibious invasion of London if there is only 2 defenders there when our spies are ready. It would deny Churchill the chance to whip defenders and move in other units.

Horse Archers ignore First Strikes, which makes a significant difference against Protective Archers, due to their extra First Strike Chance.

Axemen will also be able to take the City Raider I Promotion.

We would also be able to use the cheaper cost of city revolt since we can do it before the war starts. And open borders should give our spies a higher chance of success.

Precisely. And, if our Spy happens to fail, we will keep our EPs for another day and won't be at war with Churchill.

We'd obviously no longer want to bribe Churchill to attack Frederick, to avoid Churchill spamming Military Units, meaning that they may end up becoming Pleased toward each other, but we'll find a way to work around that issue (probably via later City gifting and repeated capturing/Liberating to get Churchill up to Friendly).

I do not understand how you get a least 3 commerce a turn. GLH will give us at least 6 commerce a turn and some extra from foreign trade routes.

Yes, you're right, I was mistakenly thinking that it gave +1 Trade Route per City.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Here's what happens:
If we have all of the Culture in a City that we gift to Hatty, we get "-50% for City Culture" as a discount off of the "Base Cost" of an Espionage Mission performed in a City that we gift to Hatty at 3 S of Paris--but only if that City has earned at least 1 Culture of its own. We could also capture Stonehenge, which would save us from whipping a Monument, since Stonehenge would give us a free Monument, Thanks for the explanation.


True, but Paris is going to need to stagnate while slow-building a Settler anyway Not sure a worker wouldn't be more useful. We need to get some roads built. (otherwise it will just grow into Unhappiness), so we'll have a Settler regardless and it will just be a matter of using it for a City settled 3 S of Paris or used as a gift for Churchill, depending upon whether we can catch Churchill with his pants down without said Settler gift.


Spoken like a true conqueror Isn't that the way the other leading teams are behaving?, but then who will we be pleasing? Why must we find someone to please right now? I'd prioritize building a powerful production and commerce base, from which to conquer the world, A non-coastal AI where we have to fight tooth and nail to capture 3 of their heavily-defended Cities only to have to keep rinsing and repeating with Liberating and recapturing those landlocked Cities just to get a Friendly partner? Again, why is a friendly partner critical? This is Monarch. One can conquer a Pangaea world on one's own and still tech to RXR.

In my most recent test game run, he went for Mathematics and Currency. I'd rather not eliminate him in the short run at a minimum, and he's still a good candiate for longer-term tech-trading due to not meeting a lot of the AIs. Waiting for J to tech Math makes sense (and we will probably be doing that even if we go after him ASAP), but if we are going to be teching Currency, what good will his teching that do us? Without meeting and trading with other AIs, how likely is it that J will either research or trade for techs that we will need when we need them? Keeping J alive as a trading partner seems a problematic goal and it denies us the use of Lisbon. I'm concerned that the present plan prioritizes tech trading rather than capturing powerful cities that will enhance both production and research.

I'm not seeing how we'd get enough Units. It may well take fewer units than capturing London because there would be no need for spies, settler, or galleys and possibly because the defenders would not have defensive promotions. (Know better next turn.) If we went for a fast Horseback Riding and made 2 Horse Archers instead of a Barracks and a Galley, that's still not enough to capture a City. True, and not enough to capture London either. What's your point here? Even 4 Horse Archers won't be sufficient to go up against a City with Cultural Defences and 3 Military Units in it, and Turn 66 would be the absolute soonest that we could field 4 Horse Archers if we seriously pushed hard for it, without counting time to move the army into place, and that's still too small of an army to go for Lisbon. Probably so, and that's why I mentioned that we might be able to time it with his sending a settler party out for his second city. We could potentially capture Joao's second City (if he builds one) with that army, but to what end? Not advocating that.

The test game is wrong in this regard; Joao has Iron Working in the real game but not in the test game. But does he have iron? Our scout should let us know if he has mined soon.

Feel free to lay out a plan for getting enough Horse Archers to make it happen. I'm seeing 4 Horse Archers being able to declare war from that location on Turn 69 at the soonest, and that's without a Barracks, and with us delaying the completion of The Great Lighthouse. Not advocating abandoning either of those two builds. Don't see T69 as a natural deadline. If there are 2 Archers, our odds of success are already quite low. If there's a third City Defender, even if it's a Warrior, plan to lose Horse Archers, not be able to capture the City immediately, cry as more Archers get whipped, and then still be unable to capture the City and have to run with our horsetails between our horses' legs.

Obviously a premature attack would be a bad idea. You're advocating attacking London post turn 75. Is it not possible to prepare for both possibilities -- that is, build HAs -- and see which looks more promising to accomplish first, then go after the second?

 

[Jersey Joe]

It looks to me like we are positioning ourselves for a religious win after we build the Orient Express.

 

[Folket]

I have not really find a way to improve on Dhoomstrikers micro.

But I wonder what the plan with Joao is. We are first trading with his worst enemy and then plan to have him as our trading partner.

btw, Joao has Iron NEEE of Lisbon.

In the test game my warrior did not prevent Fredrick from settling, standing 2 NE of Orleans.
PPP
Diplo Policy
If an AI asks us to convert to Christianity, say yes.
If an AI asks for a tech, more often then not I will give the tech.
If an AI asks us to stop trading with another AI, say no.
If an AI asks for a Resource, pause play and check with the team, realising that a "yes" will prevent 10 turns of war,
but doesn't really anger other AIs, so it's free positive Diplo if we don't want to go to war with that AI soon. If we do nbot have excess resources I do not think this can happen.

Multiple turn items
Keep our Warrior 1 on the G Riv For that is 2 NE of Orleans (1 E of the Fish) for as long as possible to deter Frederick from settling on the G For 1 SE of there (1 S of the G Sheep)
When we have to retreat our Warrior 1, don't have it move into Orleans (otherwise Frederick will be far more inclined to come at Orleans with a stack)
Try to keep at least one Unit that hasn't moved before doing the double-checking step (say, our Scout) to avoid accidentally advancing the turn too soon

Stopping Points
Frederick and Churchill meet each other
Frederick threatens our City
We meet a new AI
We want to declare war on an AI
Something unexpected happens


Turn 57, 1720 BC
Trade Iron Working from Hatty <-> Alphabet
Gift Masonry to Joao?


Turn 58, 1680 BC
Paris completes Worker -> builds Granary
XO Cognac completes Granary -> builds Warrior (already in the build queue)

Paris hires 2 Scientists to work: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci
XO Cognac switches Horse to Fish to work: Fish and Cow

Science Rate 100%

Worker in Paris: Rename it to Worker 3
Select it and press Ctrl + 3 to number it

Worker 2 (1 SE of Paris) moves to G For that is 2 W of Lyons (SE of the G Riv Wheat)
Worker 3 (in Paris) moves to GH at 1 S of Orleans (2 E of the G Cow)

Double-checking: Paris Granary has 61 Hammers going into it, Great Scientist in 8 turns, XO Cognac is earning +7 Food, and Horseback Riding in 3 turns


Turn 59, 1640 BC
Paris completes Granary -> builds Barracks
XO Cognac completes Warrior -> builds Lighthouse

Worker 2 Chops G For that is 2 W of Lyons (1 SE of G Riv Wheat)
Worker 3 Mines the GH that is 1 S of Orleans (2 E of the G Cow)

New Warrior forties in XO Cognac


Turn 60, 1600 BC

Paris fires 2 Scientists and works the G Copper Mine and a G For
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and G For

Science Rate 0%

Double-checking: Paris at Size 5 earns +9 Food, Horseback Riding won't get completed yet


Turn 61, 1560 BC

Paris switches G For to Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 2 Sci

On the F4 ACTIVE screen, cancel Open Borders with Stalin

Worker 1 Roads the G Copper Mine
Worker 2 completes the Chop at 2 W of Lyons (1 SE of the Wheat)


Turn 62, 1520 BC

Paris 2-pop-whips its Barracks
Paris switches Copper -> Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 1 Sci

XO Cognac switches G For -> G Copper Mine
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper

Orleans switches G Riv For -> GH Mine

Lyons nets its Fish and should automatically work it
Lyons starts granary.

Worker 2 moves into Lyons (NE G Riv > SE Lyons)



Turn 63, 1480 BC

Paris completes Barracks -> Builds Axeman
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci

XO Cognac completes Lighthouse -> Galley

Worker 1 moves to the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 moves 1 E GH For (1 E of Lyons)
Worker 3 moves SSE to chop forest



Turn 64, 1440 BC

Paris completes Axeman -> builds spy (At plus 3/5 food it is more efficient to grow and three whip settler instead of stagnating. And do we really need that settler now? )
Orleans completes Work Boat -> builds Granary

2 pop whip in XO Cognac,

Paris gets to work copper.

EDIT: Worker 1 Chops the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 Chops the GH For that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 Chops whichever Forest it moved to

Axeman heads north-east
Orleans Work Boat heads to Orleans' Fish

Turn 65, 1400 BC

XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Copper and Horse

Paris switches Copper -> Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci
Paris switches to horse archer.

Orleans' Fish gets netted
Orleans works: Fish + Cow

Science Rate 100% in order to learn Horseback Riding this turn

Lyon work wine and fur. (getting to 16 food with Granary finishes so that we can fill it with 10 food. )

Galley 1 moves to London, (scouting on the way to 2SE of london.

Turn 66, 1360 BC
Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency

Science Rate 0%

Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci

XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper

Lyon work fur and fish.

Worker 2 finishes its Chop into Lyons' Granary
Worker 3 finishes its Chop into Orleans' Granary

Double-checking: XO Cognac has 41 Hammers in The Great Lighthouse


Turn 67, 1320 BC

Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency

Orleans 1-pop-whips its Granary
Lyons 1-pop-whips its Granary

Worker 1 Moves to the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac (1 SW of the Horse)
Worker 2 builds a Road on the GH that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 moves E of Orleans to chop forest.

turn 68

Build academy in Paris.
Build HA in Paris
Build HA in Lyons
Build Galley in Orleans


turn 69