Paris switches Copper -> Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci Paris switches to horse archer.
Orleans' Fish gets netted
Orleans works: Fish + Cow
Science Rate 100% in order to learn Horseback Riding this turn
Lyon work wine and fur. (getting to 16 food with Granary finishes so that we can fill it with 10 food. )
Galley 1 moves to London, (scouting on the way to 2SE of london.
Turn 66, 1360 BC Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency
Science Rate 0%
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper
Lyon work fur and fish.
Worker 2 finishes its Chop into Lyons' Granary
Worker 3 finishes its Chop into Orleans' Granary
Double-checking: XO Cognac has 41 Hammers in The Great Lighthouse
Turn 67, 1320 BC
Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency
Orleans 1-pop-whips its Granary
Lyons 1-pop-whips its Granary
Worker 1 Moves to the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac (1 SW of the Horse)
Worker 2 builds a Road on the GH that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 moves E of Orleans to chop forest.
turn 68
Build academy in Paris.
Build HA in Paris
Build HA in Lyons
Build Galley in Orleans
I am a little confused. How does Paris switch to a Horse Archer on turn 65 when we have not yet learned Horseback Riding? It looks like we learn Horseback Riding on turn 66 and that the turn 67 "Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency" is a typographical error.
Like to see a confirmation that our scout is going to report on what is in Lisbon, where J's units are outside the city, and any evidence of an iron mine..
If we're looking to trade for Currency (which I'm not advocating), then why research it or at least why not keep the slider at 0% Research after HBR or possibly research IW until we can trade Masonry for it with J?
Your goals in this scenario:
Explore the world to find the spot labeled as "Istanbul" and the region labeled as the "Orient".
Own a city at the Istanbul spot and a city in the Orient region.
Connect your original capital and those two citys using an unbroken track of railroad.
Win the game.
It would certainly seem to be one of the more practical approaches.
Space is out.
Domination is turned off and is therefore impossible.
United Nations Diplo would require several techs that we don't need.
A Cultural Victory using Espionage would also be an option, but it could compete with our last-minute building of Workers (needing to build Spies).
Conquest is also feasible, but would probably take longer than waiting for a full Religious Victory voting cycle.
A Religious Victory requires that we only have a certain percentage of the Apostolic Palace Religion's votes, meaning that having a couple of Friendly AIs who control some of the votes will be helpful, particularly if one of them ends up being our voting opponent, leaving the other one to vote for us. We could also have a Vassal, but (in most circumstances) we can't gift Cities to a Vassal, so we'd lose some flexibility if we had a Vassal, and us having a Vassal would anger other AIs. Owning the Apostolic Palace Wonder ourselves would give us great flexibility in being able to run the State Religion of our choice.
Infrequent and relatively equal trades with a Worst Enemy don't incur a lot of negative Diplo--from the test game, we get -1 with Alex but not with Joao, as the amount of positive and negative Diplo for trading is factored against how long you've known a given AI, and we only recently met Alex. the -1 with Alex will disappear as time goes on.
You're advocating attacking London post turn 75. Is it not possible to prepare for both possibilities -- that is, build HAs -- and see which looks more promising to accomplish first, then go after the second?
It really won't be easy to plan for both. We're going to have to be opportunistic about London by having our Units already waiting on boats. If we have 4 Units on boats and Churchill ends a turn with 1 Archer in London, we'd want to stop play and discuss whether to make the attack--which would likely be without being able to use the Spy's Support City Revolt Mission, but with 4 Units versus 1 Unit, even with the 60% Cultural Defensive Bonus and the 50% Amphibious Assault penalty, we'd stand a good chance of winning (a test game could tell us for certain).
Workers can be captured, especially from Boats, while Settlers can't be captured.
One possible tactic with boat warfare would be to drop off Units from a Galley on top of a Worker. For example, if we later Pillaged the G Riv Sheep that is 1 SW of Hamburg, then retreated to our boats, we could capture Workers when they came to Re-Pasture the Sheep. I'd rather just capture Hamburg, though.
But, if Frederick does settle a City closer to us as he does in the test game, if we have a Militarly Unit or two on a Galley (preferably 2 Militarly Units), we can drop them off on top of the Worker that is improve Frederick's G Sheep square by that newly-settled City, then run away with our Worker and load our Military Units back onto our Galley. When Frederick's next Worker came along, we could capture it, too. Rinse and repeat.
To beat the other teams, we're going to have to both do a decent job of dpomg whatever they are doing and also do some unique things that they haven't thought of or that they at least haven't executed well. The competition is stiff.
Getting +1 Happiness is big at this stage and is worth a delay in capturing Lisbon.
What you describe requires a lot of raw production and raw Commerce. If we can find ways to get some of those from AIs, we should be doing so (stolen Workers and Cities are the production, while traded or stolen techs are the Commerce).
Having a Friendly AI is one way to break the game in terms of Commerce restrictions. That's why I'd like to get at least one Friendly AI relatively soon, if we can get one, but other factors would take priority, such as owning London for the +1 Happiness.
Waiting for J to tech Math makes sense (and we will probably be doing that even if we go after him ASAP), but if we are going to be teching Currency, what good will his teching that do us?
We aren't totally beelining Currency, so there will be time for Joao and Churchill to possibly start researching it, so that we won't have to.
It all depends upon what the AIs do. We will end up seeing Churchill's Research when we spend our Espionage Points on him, so we'll know if he's started on Currency and can pick a different tech if he does.
If Joao seems to be going for Mysticism or Mathematics, we'll find out soon enough when he learns said tech. If he seems to be taking a really long time relative to the test game to learn a tech, we might hold out hope that he has picked Currency and then either calculate the turn on which he would learn it using the test game to know for certain whether he went for it or not, or else spend our Espionage Points on Joao to know for certain, before teching it ourselves if it seems that our neighbours didn't go for Currency.
Code of Laws (probably learning Priesthood first for the 20% bonus to research on Code of Laws) -> Mathematics (a prerequisite for Civil Service in BtS, so get it in trade or steal it?) -> Civil Service -> Paper -> Education -> Printing Press -> Gunpowder -> Chemistry (we need Engineering, possibly in trade) -> Steel
In that case, we aren't competing with AIs for Aesthetics, Metal Casting, Construction, Calendar, Literature, Drama, Monotheism, Compass, Machinery, etc.
The AIs are Monarch AIs, as you mentioned, so I don't hold a lot of hope for Joao getting techs in trade. The very fact that Joao won't know many of the other Leaders in the world is what makes him a potentially valuable partner for multiple reasons:
i. Before we get him to Friendly, he'll be more likely to trade us techs that both he and Hatty learns due to not knowing a lot of AIs who DO NOT know said techs. The fact that Joao is already willing to trade us Iron Working is a perfect example
ii. If other AIs haven't met him, they won't give us -4 You Traded With Our Worst Enemy Diplo penalties even if they would have hated him had they met him
iii. He won't as easily be able to trade away the techs that we give to him
Besides the ability to abuse tech-trading to increase our effective tech rate, a Friendly AI leaves us a Religious Victory as our potential Victory Condition. Do we know for certain that conquering the world will be feasible? Horse Archers/Knights could get stopped by War Elephants or Pikemen.
Cuirassiers could work, but whipping them would compete with our tech pace on the later-game techs.
How much work would it be to please an AI whose capital is landlocked and with whom we have -8 for Declaring War on their Friends? Certainly a lot more work than pleasing our somewhat-isolated neighbours of Churchill and Joao.
To be clear, I'm not advocating that Joao gets to keep Lisbon. But, I would like for us to go in when we have overwhelming odds and when our Units are going to be "in the area anyway" on our way to sailing toward Egypt.
+1 Happiness for 4 Cities with Granaries is going to be of more use than +1 City with 4 seafood Resources when our Happiness cap is so low--we'd have We Yearn to Rejoin Our Motherland Unhappiness to deal with is Lisbon, leaving us at a Happiness cap of 4 without having whipped anything. It's a nice City, but it's not a big enough prize until we can get more Happiness. If we had a way to settle by another Happiness Resource, I'd take that opportunity over owning Lisbon. But, Alex's Gems Resource looks to be out of reach until after we build a Road to him and take over his capital.
Paris completes Axeman -> builds spy (At plus 3/5 food it is more efficient to grow and three whip settler instead of stagnating. And do we really need that settler now? )
Just to be 100% clear, it would be appreciated if we stopped play when you feel that we are ready to either attack Churchill without an Espioniage Mission (i.e. he has 1 Archer defending London and we have several Units already on boats who can attack that turn) or when you feel you would want to try triggering the Espionage Mission. That way, it can be a team decision, backed by test game results to see what our odds of success will be.
In general, if there's doubt about how to proceed in a given situation, it's safer to stop play and get feedback from the team. I don't want anyone to feel rushed to play their turnsets.
Also, we should play with the awareness that the PPPs can give us micro details, but won't be able to address all situations and opportunities that might arise in the real game, so be vigilant.
You are correct. As of this turnset, our only duplicate Resource will be Fish, and it seems to be a pretty plentiful Resource, with only really Stalin possibly ever wanting it, but we don't have a Trade Network connection with him anyway.
One optional alternative would be to have our Warrior 1 alternate between the G For where Frederick might settle (1 S of the G Sheep) and the G Riv For where he is standing now (1 E of the Fish).
Doing so repeatedly might lure Frederick's Units, as he will respond to Units that are adjacent to his Cultural Borders.
So, we might try a pattern of "move to the Forest that is 1 S of the Sheep for 1 turn, then retreat back to the G Riv For for 2 turns, before moving back to the Forest that is 1 S of the G Sheep."
One benefit of deterring Frederick from settling there is that once we capture London, our boats could go west while our Horse Archers and a couple of Chariots could relatively more easily capture Hamburg without using Galleys.
But, if Frederick eventually settles there, it's not the end of the world, as then we can aim to amphibiously capture his Workers on the G Sheep using 1 Galley plus 2 Military Units (probably an Axeman and a Horse Archer).
Sounds good. The net result is -1 Commerce, equal Hammers, and +1 Food. That +1 Food allows us to grow to Size 3 one turn sooner, thereby earning us an extra turn of working the GH Riv Wine.
Minor correction: Just move SE, but I'm sure that you know what you meant.
As for the PPP:
1. I suggest that we simply gift Alphabet to Churchill on Turn 57, so that we won't forget to do it when he learns his next tech.
I don't see any tech that Churchill would learn and be able to trade to us, so there's no point in waiting for a possible tech trade--Stalin would also need to be researching the same tech at the same time as or faster than Churchill, and Stalin can't go for Aesthetics or Mathematics as Stalin doesn't know Writing. If Churchill meets backward Frederick (Cactus Pete saw a Galley of Churchill's that he mentioned might do so), it'll be even harder to get techs out of Churchill prior to getting Churchill up to Friendly status.
2. As of Turn 64, 1400 BC, the PPP needs a bit of cleaning up, so I'm going to suggest the following:
SpoilerOlder Version :
Turn 64, 1440 BC
Paris completes Axeman -> builds Spy
Orleans completes Work Boat -> builds Granary
2-pop whip Galley in XO Cognac
XO Cognac switches Copper -> Horse
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, and Horse
Paris switches Spy -> Copper
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 1 Sci
Science Rate 60% (or 100%, but 60% doesn't give us much in the way of fractional losses)
Worker 1 Chops the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 Chops the GH For that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 Chops the GH For that is 1 SE + 1 S of Orleans
Axeman heads north-east
Orleans Work Boat heads to Orleans' Fish
Double-checking: Great Scientist in 6 turns, Paris is working the Copper, and we will learn Horseback Riding this turn
Turn 65, 1400 BC
Research Horseback Riding -> Currency
Yay, we have built our first Galley
XO Cognac completes Galley -> builds The Great Lighthouse
XO Cognac switches G For -> Copper
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Copper and Horse
Paris switches to Horse Archer
Paris hires a second Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci
Espionage Rate 100% (we want to do so before we get our Academy)
Confirm Espionage Weight is 1 on Churchill and 0 on everyone else on the Ctrl + e screen
Galley 1 moves toward the Fish that is 2 SW of London (we can explore 1 NW of that Fish on Turn 68)
Orleans' Fish gets netted
Orleans works: Fish + Cow
Lyons switches Fish -> Wine
Lyons works: Wine and Fur
Double-checking: We're making roughly + 39 EPs, Paris is building a Horse Archer
Turn 66, 1360 BC
Paris switches to the Spy
Paris 2-pop-whips the Spy (we must do it on this turn in order to get the Spy into London on Turn 69)
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 1 Sci
Lyons switches Wine -> Fish
Lyons works: Fish and Fur
Worker 1 finishes its Chop into XO Cognac's The Great Lighthouse
Worker 2 finishes its Chop into Lyons' Granary
Worker 3 finishes its Chop into Orleans' Granary
Double-checking: A Spy was whipped in Paris, XO Cognac has 41 Hammers in The Great Lighthouse, Lyons is working its Fish
Turn 67, 1320 BC
Yay, we have built our first Spy
The Spy moves 1 NW G Riv For (1 NW of Paris)
Paris switches to building... a Chariot?
XO Cognac switches to building a Galley
Orleans 1-pop-whips its Granary
Lyons 1-pop-whips its Granary
Worker 1 Moves to the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac (1 SW of the Horse)
Worker 2 builds a Road on the GH that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 moves E of Orleans to chop forest
I'd prefer that we stop play on Turn 67 if we haven't had to stop yet for any other reason, as there are a lot of things happening in our Cities, including the decision of how to use our Paris Hammers, which can partially depend upon the real game situation at the time.
Turn 64, 1440 BC
Espionage Rate 100% (we want to do so before we get our Academy)
Confirm Espionage Weight is 1 on Churchill and 0 on everyone else on the Ctrl + e screen
Paris completes Axeman -> builds Spy
Orleans completes Work Boat -> builds Granary
2-pop whip Galley in XO Cognac
XO Cognac switches Copper -> Horse
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, and Horse
Paris switches Spy -> Copper
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 1 Sci
Worker 1 Chops the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 Chops the GH For that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 Chops the GH For that is 1 SE + 1 S of Orleans
Axeman heads north-east
Orleans Work Boat heads to Orleans' Fish
Double-checking: Great Scientist in 6 turns, Paris is working the Copper, and we are making roughly 37 EPs this turn
Turn 65, 1400 BC
Yay, we have built our first Galley
XO Cognac completes Galley -> builds The Great Lighthouse
XO Cognac switches G For -> Copper
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Copper and Horse
Paris 2-pop-whips the Spy
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 1 Sci
Galley 1 moves toward the Fish that is 2 SW of London (we can explore 1 NW of that Fish on Turn 68)
Orleans' Fish gets netted
Orleans works: Fish + Cow
Lyons switches Fish -> Wine
Lyons works: Wine and Fur
Double-checking: Paris has whipped its Spy and Orleans is working its Fish
Turn 66, 1360 BC
Yay, we have built our first Spy
Paris completes Spy -> Axeman
XO Cognac switches to building a Galley (if whipped on Turn 67, it can help with an attack on London on Turn 74, or even Turn 73 via teleportation)
Lyons switches Wine -> Fish
Lyons works: Fish and Fur
Worker 1 finishes its Chop into XO Cognac's The Great Lighthouse
Worker 2 finishes its Chop into Lyons' Granary
Worker 3 finishes its Chop into Orleans' Granary
The Spy moves 1 NW G Riv For (1 NW of Paris)
Double-checking: XO Cognac has 41 Hammers in The Great Lighthouse, Lyons is working its Fish
Turn 67, 1320 BC
XO Cognac 2-pop-whips its Galley (if we want to use it in a Turn 74 attack on London)
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, and Horse
Paris switches Sci -> Copper
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 1 Sci
Orleans 1-pop-whips its Granary
Orleans works: Cow + Fish
Lyons 1-pop-whips its Granary
Lyons works: Fish
Worker 1 Moves to the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac (1 SW of the Horse)
Worker 2 builds a Road on the GH that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 moves E of Orleans to chop forest
The Spy moves 1 NW G Riv (2 NW of Paris)
I'd prefer that we stop play on Turn 67 if we haven't had to stop yet for any other reason, as there are a lot of things happening in our Cities.
We will learn Horseback Riding next turn, when Paris finishes its second Axeman, allowing Paris to whip a Horse Archer on Turn 69 just after earning our Great Scientist.
That's my suggestion, too, with us using the Espionage Slider at 100% for a few turns prior to obtaining our Great Scientist.
If our Galley 1 ends Turn 68 on the Fish that is 2 NW + 1 N of Paris, then on Turn 69, our Spy can get on Galley 1. Then, on Turn 69, our Galley 1 moves into London. Then, before we end the turn, we would unload the Spy inside of London using the Unload icon, thereby getting our Spy accumulating its 50% bonus on Turns 70, 71, 72, 73, and 74, allowing us to use the full discount on Turn 75 (if the Spy hasn't auto-died by then).
EDIT: Actually, if we get the Spy on the boat one turn sooner, we'd start accumulating the stationary bonus 1 turn sooner, so it's better to whip the Spy on Turn 65 instead of starting on a Horse Archer on Turn 65. So, the above info should be updated to reflect that fact.
I just played the test game to see how well an attack on Joao might go. It goes well. On turn 77, took Lisbon with the loss of one HA, and captured 2 workers
The save is below, but understand that I played fast and certainly sub-optimally, shutting down research after HBR, did nothing diplomatically or in trades, and made Peace with Fred just to simplify the game so I could quickly learn how warring might go. I did continue work on the GLH (2 turns away), got a GS and an academy, and will have 2 galleys and a settler built by the time my four healthiest HAs heal and get to Orleans. Forgot about a spy, but that could be worked in. In other words, we can take both Lisbon and London in relatively short order, which would give us a real power base going forward. (Would argue that Conquest on Monarch should be easily achievable well before RXR with knights, unless the mapmaker has fundamentally jiggered the game.)
But you have forgotten to add Iron to Joao in the test game. He is likely to improve the iron next and that will give him 13 turns to build spear/axemen.
How about we play up until and including Turn 60, but don't end that turn and stop play there to reassess? That way, we'll still keep both approaches open.
If we end up going with the PPP and the Galley + Spy approach, then delaying Horseback Riding does 2 things for us:
1. It reduces the chances of AIs who have met us from selecting Horseback Riding as their next tech
AND
2. No AI can ask for Horseback Riding from us until after we learn that tech. I found that Joao was asking for Horseback Riding a couple of times in the test games when I learned it relatively earlier
But, if we end up deciding to go for early Horse Archer spam to go after Lisbon, probably not going after London until after we have Catapults or a really large army, we'd probably want to stay at a 100% Science Rate on Turn 60 and start building Horse Archers as of Turn 61.
So, Turn 60 is the key turn to make a decision, and if we play that far, we can decide a little better on that turn.
EDIT: I tried leaving Warrior 1 on the G For that is 1 S of the G Sheep where Frederick settles. He didn't ever send a Settler Party that way. Instead, later, he sent a stack of Axes and Spears toward us. So, standing there for a long period of time pissed him off. But, moving to that square and retreating for a couple of turns, then repeating, should allow for his Settler Party to at times feel that it's a valid location and at other times retreat because it thinks that it's not a valid location.
EDIT 2: In Message 604, I redid the suggested changes to the PPP to incorporate the earlier Spy. I spoilered the previous version for reference purposes, but I think that this new approach works out quite well in terms of balancing Unit production, our Great Scientist, Galley logistics for a Turn 74 assault on London, and getting our Spy into place for a Turn 74 Support City Revolt Mission in London.
If we collect some extra EPs, we could even try the Espionage Mission on Turn 73 and use teleporting of our Galley 2 in order to attack London on Turn 73.
Note that as for capturing Workers, once London has fallen, we can consider using troops on Galleys to hunt for and amphibiously capture Churchill's Workers who are silly enough to improve squares along his coastline.
Assaulting London on as early as Turn 73 seems pretty compelling when compared against assaulting Lisbon on Turn 77.
Folket: When I declared war on Joao, there was no longer access to our resources in Lyon (did road the copper but no road to Lyon). I started to build a warrior there to upgrade to a spear in an emergency or to keep as an MP if there wasn't one, but felt a chariot would be more useful in the short term, so I inefficiently switched. Playing fast and loose and wasn't really worried about it, just trying to see how difficult it would likely be to take Lisbon. I used the test game as provided. I don't see evidence of iron on the map in the real game, so puzzled by your concern about that. Certainly if Lisbon can build spears, that will be a serious deterrent.
But, if we end up deciding to go for early Horse Archer spam to go after Lisbon, probably not going after London until after we have Catapults or a really large army, In the test game, London still looks quite vulnerable after Lisbon falls. What is it that you see preventing us from capturing it with HAs, with perhaps a metal unit in the next shipload to help protect the city?
So, Turn 60 is the key turn to make a decision, and if we play that far, we can decide a little better on that turn. Good approach. It will also allow us to scout Portugal. At that point, thinking we should also consider researching MC next, if we are going to hope to gain Math, Currency, and IW from other AIs one way or another.
EDIT: I tried leaving Warrior 1 on the G For that is 1 S of the G Sheep where Frederick settles. He didn't ever send a Settler Party that way. Instead, later, he sent a stack of Axes and Spears toward us. So, standing there for a long period of time pissed him off. But, moving to that square and retreating for a couple of turns, then repeating, should allow for his Settler Party to at times feel that it's a valid location and at other times retreat because it thinks that it's not a valid location. Certainly sounds worth trying.
Assaulting London on as early as Turn 73 seems pretty compelling when compared against assaulting Lisbon on Turn 77. T77 might be improved on slightly, but, yes, it does (though I'd prefer Lisbon to London). Are you doing this while still building a barracks, chopping and whipping the GLH with all deliberate speed, gaining an academy, and still making progress on your gift settler.
Another reason for gifting Alphabet to Churchill now: A Pleased AI is less likely to spend Espionage Points on you than is a Cautious AI. There's also the chance that he'd build Research as a build item instead of Units.
In one line of argument you emphasize keeping the AI backward and in the next you're giving or trading away Alpha right and left. There is at least an apparent inconsistency here.
Every AI has a Palace, which is worth 8 Commerce per turn. Add to that a City Centre square, a Trade Route, and Commerce from worked squares (say, even just 2 Coast squares) and we're looking at a minimum of 15 Commerce per turn for a City without Resources and without even a Lighthouse, so we're really talking about the bare minimum here.
Using the test game's England island, if there were 3 Cities in the north that worked a couple of G Farms (next to the Lakes or to the River) and also worked the Oasis-equivalent Lake squares (once a Lighthouse was built in each City), it wouldn't be unreasonable for those 3 Cities to earn 20 Commerce from the capital and 10 Commerce each from the other 2 Cities, and again, that's with giving Churchill the junk land. Add another 9 Commerce once the AI has Currency and we're talking about 50 Commerce per turn.
With his Palace being on another continent, there's a 50% Liberation distance bonus relative to our Palace, meaning that we'd easily get Liberation credit for any gifted City on his landmass. Ideally, he'd be the one making the Settlers, but we could also consider making him some, then at some point, preferably after all Strategic Resources have been denied, we assign some Military Units to repeatedly capturing and Liberating some Cities.
It will be of most use with either a Friendly AI or an AI who only knows a few AIs where one of those AIs also learns the same techs. Right now, Joao only appears to know Hatty, and Hatty is advanced, so if Joao learns a tech that Hatty knows, Joao should be willing to trade it to us. For example, if they both learn Mathematics and Joao stays relatively isolated, Joao would be willing to trade us Mathematics.
If we get the AIs into a state where they are Friendly toward us, they will be very unlikely to spend their EPs on us and we can cheaply monitor their Research with Espionage, gifting them techs if they start to duplicate our Research, not even fearing gifting them enough techs so that they might learn Feudalism, as we'd already have them at Friendly, and they'd be so advanced relative to the other AIs that they won't be trading Feudalism around. It comes down to an investment--the sooner that we can get them to Friendly, the faster that we'll benefit, but the higher the relative investment compared to other priorities. So, I'm okay with taking London now and repairing our relations later.
I'm not sure just how big England is, but consider that if it's the same size as in the test game, there will be space for 8 Cities there. Owning any more than 3 Cities in England will cost us heaps of Colonial Maintenance Costs, so we'd likely only own 2 Cities there, perhaps 3 if there are a lot of Resources per City. So, there's really no harm in having England own the rest of the landmass--and, if there is only space for a couple of Cities, we can "relocate" Churchill.
In one line of argument you emphasize keeping the AI backward and in the next you're giving or trading away Alpha right and left. There is at least an apparent inconsistency here.
Who gets the techs matters. If an AI is far ahead of other AIs, it won't trade away techs. We're not giving Writing, let alone Alphabet, to Germany or Russia, for example.
T77 might be improved on slightly, but, yes, it does (though I'd prefer Lisbon to London). Are you doing this while still building a barracks, chopping and whipping the GLH with all deliberate speed, gaining an academy, and still making progress on your gift settler.
Yes to Barracks, yes to Chopping Granaries and The GLH with all deliberate speed, yes with getting an Academy before we'd need 100% Research, but no, we gave up on the Settler idea in order to get a Spy and more Military Units out of Paris.
It's not guaranteed by any means, but war in this game is never guaranteed.
The nice part is that, say, if our Spy dies, we have a backup plan of getting another Spy there (we'd keep the Espionage Points) and could launch an assault on Hamburg plus possibly Worker-stealing on the G Sheep if Frederick settles another City to the north-west of Berlin like he does in the test game while we wait for our new Spy to earn its Stationary discount.
For one, Alphabet can't be traded to an AI who doesn't know Writing. So, if Stalin beelined Iron Working, he couldn't trade it to Churchill for Alphabet.
But, AIs also do one-tech-for-one-tech trades and they need roughly equal value to make it happen.
Also, Stalin won't trade techs with anyone with whom he isn't Pleased, which isn't going to happen with Churchill, so the two of them are blocked from trading techs with each other.
Yes to Barracks, yes to Chopping Granaries and The GLH with all deliberate speed, yes with getting an Academy before we'd need 100% Research, but no, we gave up on the Settler idea in order to get a Spy and more Military Units out of Paris.
Folket: When I declared war on Joao, there was no longer access to our resources in Lyon (did road the copper but no road to Lyon). I started to build a warrior there to upgrade to a spear in an emergency or to keep as an MP if there wasn't one, but felt a chariot would be more useful in the short term, so I inefficiently switched. Playing fast and loose and wasn't really worried about it, just trying to see how difficult it would likely be to take Lisbon. I used the test game as provided. I don't see evidence of iron on the map in the real game, so puzzled by your concern about that. Certainly if Lisbon can build spears, that will be a serious deterrent.
In one line of argument you emphasize keeping the AI backward and in the next you're giving or trading away Alpha right and left. There is at least an apparent inconsistency here.
So, iron wouldn't show up in the same way now in our territory? Once we have IW, does it then show up in the same way (before being mined) everywhere on the map or just in France?
It's stacking up, but we're essentially using up the spare population points that our Scientists use to the point that just after getting our Great Scientist, we won't have spare Happiness to be able to hire Specialists, which seems fine by me, as we also don't have Farms or Cottages to work with said citizens. In other words, we're pushing the usage of the Happiness "Resource" to the maximum.
I'd rather ask the question differently... which capital can be assaulted sooner while providing more benefit? Thanks to boats allowing us to attack on the turn of declaring war, London is actually easier to reach.
A Paris-built Horse Archer can get on a boat on the turn that it is built and can attack London on the following turn.
How many turns does a Paris-built Horse Archer take to be able to attack Lisbon?
Backtrack from that time and then we see just how early our army must exist in order for it to contribute in the first assault.
Our Workers are all busy on critical tasks, so we don't yet have spare Worker turns to reduce the travel time from Paris to Joao's Cultural Borders. Later, we will have those spare Worker turns. The same argument exists for going after Alex's capital, where it will be faster to do later, once we have spare Worker turns to build a Road to his Cultural Borders.
That is a good catch, Folket. Wish I'd spotted that much sooner. So, iron wouldn't show up in the same way now in our territory? Once we have IW, does it then show up in the same way (before being mined) everywhere on the map or just in France?
Once we have iron working we will see iron everywhere. I do not know if it will show the tile as producing an extra hammer in territory that does not know iron working. But I expect it does not. You only get the extra hammer for a resource you have the tech for revealing.
PPP
Diplo Policy
If an AI asks us to convert to Christianity, say yes.
If an AI asks for a tech, more often then not I will give the tech.
If an AI asks us to stop trading with another AI, say no.
If an AI asks for a Resource, pause play and check with the team, say yes
Multiple turn items
Move warrior outside Orleans to keep the German away.
Stopping Points
Frederick and Churchill meet each other
Frederick threatens our City
Loose warrior to Fredrick
We meet a new AI
Something unexpected happens
Turn 57, 1720 BC
Trade Iron Working from Hatty <-> Alphabet
Gift Masonry to Joao
gift alphabet to Churchill
Turn 58, 1680 BC
Paris completes Worker -> builds Granary
XO Cognac completes Granary -> builds Warrior (already in the build queue)
Paris hires 2 Scientists to work: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci
XO Cognac switches Horse to Fish to work: Fish and Cow
Science Rate 100%
Worker in Paris: Rename it to Worker 3
Select it and press Ctrl + 3 to number it
Worker 2 (1 SE of Paris) moves to G For that is 2 W of Lyons (SE of the G Riv Wheat)
Worker 3 (in Paris) moves to GH at 1 S of Orleans (2 E of the G Cow)
Double-checking: Paris Granary has 61 Hammers going into it, Great Scientist in 8 turns, XO Cognac is earning +7 Food, and Horseback Riding in 3 turns
Turn 59, 1640 BC
Paris completes Granary -> builds Barracks
XO Cognac completes Warrior -> builds Lighthouse
Worker 2 Chops G For that is 2 W of Lyons (1 SE of G Riv Wheat)
Worker 3 Mines the GH that is 1 S of Orleans (2 E of the G Cow)
New Warrior forties in XO Cognac
Turn 60, 1600 BC
Paris fires 2 Scientists and works the G Copper Mine and a G For
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and G For
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