SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Dhoomstriker]

Looking at the Great Wall suggests that either, Moscow or Novograd, or both are closer to St. Petersburg than Rostov.

That's what our Scout will hopefully help to determine. If we don't move our Scout on T92, it can feasibly teleport out of Stalin's Culture and then move somewhere to safety. Or, we explore with the Scout on T92 with the plan to gift the Scout to Stalin (taking up 1 more Unit Supply in his army and thereby possibly reducing the chance of him building another Military Unit).

How about also gifting Yakutsk to Churchill? That would supply a spawn buster until we have a settler ready to replace it.

If Stalin whips Yakutsk down to Size 2, we can entertain the idea. We'd probably set ourselves a timeline of roughly 8 turns to recapture Yakutsk, though, as an AI City will hit Size 2 upon earning 19 Food. Would committing a troop to capture Yakutsk be better than having Warrior 1 or a Galley act as a temporary spawn-buster? Maybe, if doing so can lure Stalin's troops toward Yakutsk for the turns where it's in City Revolt and we keep the City during that time, but doing so does put pressure on us in terms of when we'd declare war on Churchill. I'd much rather gift Vlad, which Churchill could keep for a long time without being able to create a City Defender there.

Would we and the city be safe from Attack?

Yes, for as long as we are not at war with Churchill, since Churchill won't Open Borders with his Worst Enemy... although he might Open Borders with Stalin when we declare war on Churchill (which hopefully won't be until after we're in a Cease Fire with Stalin and thus they wouldn't Open Borders with each other--they might be willing to Open Borders with each other if we are at war with both of them at once, just as how Frederick Opened Borders with us since we declared war on Alex).

If we reverse the roles of us and Stalin in a test game, we see this message when trying to attack an English City when we don't have Open Borders with England: "Entering English lands would trigger WAR!" So, Stalin won't be able to get into St. Petersburg once we make Churchill the proprietor of the City.

I'm pretty sure that an AI won't declare war when involved in a war and when that AI wasn't already plotting a different war before getting into the current war. So, if Stalin has a red fist icon on the Scoreboard before we declare war, there's a chance that he'd be planning on declaring war on England and could finish his war preparations mid-way through the war with us and at that time declare war on Churchill, but honestly, Frederick would be a much more reasonable target for Stalin to pick since England is on another landmass entirely, while Stalin and Frederick share Cultural Borders with each other, and those factors play heavily on whom an AI will declare war (being on the same landmass as each other and having Cultural Borders adjacent to 8 squares of Cultural Borders belonging to the other player).

And, if Stalin doesn't have a "red fist" icon in the Scoreboard on T92, I don't think that it will be possible for him to declare war on Churchill while Stalin is at war with us, except for something crazy such as the Apostolic Palace forcing him to get in on a war.

Of the AIs whom we have met, Hatty has 34 / 2 = 17 population points that have Islam (which must be all of her Cities, since Thebes is Size 10 and Alexandria is Size 4, so Memphis must be Size 3). No other AI whom we have met has Islam in any of their Cities. Even if Stalin were to get Islam over the next few turns, it will be 9 turns until the next Apostolic Palace Resolution gets proposed.


A Size 2 City (or a Size 1 City) that gets captured will be in City Revolt for 3 turns. Churchill would then only need another 4 turns to grow Yakutsk to Size 2 (5 Food per turn for 4 turns, only needing 19 Food), after which point he could one-pop-whip the Archer that he will almost certainly have started building there. With Stalin possibly not Cease Firing for 7 or 8 turns, the timing to recapture Yakutsk would be quite tight, assuming that we don't want to be at war with both of them at the same time as each other.


Remember that we'll want Worker 1 to finish his Road on the Wheat before our Spies move to the Card Game on T91.

Also, on T90, Spy 003 and Spy 005 will want to move across of the River to the G Riv Road at 1 SW of Paris (1 E of the G Copper), so that they can move 2 squares on T91 into Macau.


We'll also have to expect Churchill to become Jewish after he gets control of St. Petersburg, as that City will be his only City with a Religion in it, and an AI will switch State Religions immediately for such a case.


With any luck, Galley 6 will arrive in one of Hatty's Cities (she has a ton of Fish netted, so she must have at least one Coastal City) so that the Units on the Galley can unload inside of the City and be able to move on the same turn as arriving inside of the City. Since we earlier calculated that her City must be 1 NE of where we placed it in the test game, it should be 1 SW + 7 S of Lyons, which takes an exact amount of 2-movement-turns to arrive in the City, assuming that that particular City is coastal. Note that even if a Galley has 0 movement points remaining to it, Units can still Unload from that Galley on the turn that the Galley arrives inside of her City. If the City isn't coastal, it's a moot point about unloading inside of a City and we'd just unload on land on top of a Road.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I had some unexpected company. After they left I was still a little distracted and concentrating on the troop and galley moves. I missed setting the EP rate to 0% on T89, but I did set it to 0% on T90.

T89, 650BC (continued)
A boat (not sure if galley or work boat) leaves Nottingham sailing due north.
Our scout meets a representative of Mehmed. Mehmed knows Mathematics but will not trade it. He has not gold and only 1 city besides his Capital.
Citizens of Ruby Bay want to join the British Empire

T90, 625BC
York's borders expand.
Macau cannot locate the resources to build a Spearman, so the work a G Riv tile and build an Archer.
Our scout ventures into the woods and locates Moscow. There he drinks vodka with a representative of Kublai Khan. Khan has no techs to trade and only 10 gold (Khan does have 4 cities plus his Capital). Our scout gives the representative a coupon book for the casino in Macau.
Troop and Galley movements are going as planned.

T91, 600BC
We discover a Portuguese Spy.
Stalin is now the worst enemy of Hatty.
Having received a book of free play coupons Khan thinks he can beg the secrets of writing from us. I refuse.
Macau switches from an Archer to a Sperman and works wheat.
Hattie is studying Music.

Given what our Scout has discovered, I figure here is a good place to stop.

Some Screen Shots:

Alexandria

Spoiler :

Moscow

Spoiler :

Diplomacy Screens

Spoiler :

The Logs:

Session Turn Log from 650 BC to 600 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 89, 650 BC: Paris can hurry Spy for 1⇴ with 16ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 58 turns.
Turn 89, 650 BC: XO Cognac can hurry Spy for 1⇴ with 35ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 48 turns.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Orleans has grown to size 3.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Orleans can hurry Spy for 1⇴ with 30ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 39 turns.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Lyons can hurry Chariot for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 48 turns.
Turn 89, 650 BC: London has grown to size 4.
Turn 89, 650 BC: London can hurry Spy for 2⇴ with 36ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 21 turns.
Turn 89, 650 BC: You are the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of XO Cognac are about to expand.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of York are about to expand.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 10 ℤ for York.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Ruby Bay has been founded.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ℤ for Ruby Bay.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Alexander refuses to talk.
Turn 89, 650 BC: You are the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Joao II.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Churchill.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Alexander is the worst enemy of Frederick, Hatshepsut.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of XO Cognac are about to expand.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of York are about to expand.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Joao II
Turn 89, 650 BC: Alexander refuses to talk.
Turn 89, 650 BC: You are the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Joao II.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Churchill.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Alexander is the worst enemy of Frederick, Hatshepsut.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of XO Cognac are about to expand.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of York are about to expand.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Joao II
Turn 89, 650 BC: Paris will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: XO Cognac will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Lyons will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of XO Cognac have expanded!
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have trained a Spy in Orleans. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have trained a Spy in London. Work has now begun on a Christian Monastery.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of York have expanded!
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have trained a Worker in Argent. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Frederick has founded Frankfurt in a distant land.

Turn 90, 625 BC: Paris has grown to size 4.
Turn 90, 625 BC: XO Cognac has grown to size 4.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Lyons has grown to size 3.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Hamburg will be pacified on the next turn.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Cologne will be pacified on the next turn.
Turn 90, 625 BC: The borders of Argent are about to expand.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Mehmed II
Turn 90, 625 BC: Macau has been founded.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Paris will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Orleans will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 90, 625 BC: London will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 90, 625 BC: The borders of Argent have expanded!
Turn 90, 625 BC: A Portuguese Spy has been stumbled upon while operating near the French city of Paris!

Turn 91, 600 BC: Paris has grown to size 5.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Paris can hurry Chariot for 1⇴ with 29ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 56 turns.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Orleans has grown to size 4.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Orleans can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 29ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 37 turns.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Lyons can hurry Chariot for 1⇴ with 19ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 46 turns.
Turn 91, 600 BC: London has grown to size 3.
Turn 91, 600 BC: London can hurry Christian Monastery for 1⇴ with 35ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 29 turns.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Hamburg has been pacified.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Cologne has been pacified.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Stalin.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Hatshepsut.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Kublai Khan

AutoLog

Spoiler :

Turn 89/500 (650 BC) [03-Aug-2016 14:55:43]
Hamburg begins: Horse Archer (51 turns)
Cologne begins: Chariot (31 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
100% Espionage: 112 per turn
0% Gold: -47 per turn, 110 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in London
Paris grows to size 4
Paris finishes: Spy
XO Cognac grows to size 4
XO Cognac's borders expand
XO Cognac finishes: Spy
Orleans finishes: Spy
Lyons grows to size 3
Lyons finishes: Chariot
London finishes: Spy
York's borders expand
Argent finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:
Player contact made: Mehmed II of Ottomans
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut (Egypt) towards Joao II (Portugal), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 90/500 (625 BC) [03-Aug-2016 15:01:36]
Paris begins: Chariot (5 turns)
XO Cognac begins: Spy (5 turns)
Lyons begins: Chariot (15 turns)
Orleans begins: Horse Archer (7 turns)
Argent begins: Work Boat (8 turns)
Rheims founded
Macau begins: Archer (25 turns)
A Mine was built near Nottingham
Player contact made: Kublai Khan of Mongolia
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 51 per turn, 64 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in London
Paris grows to size 5
XO Cognac finishes: Spy
Orleans grows to size 4
London grows to size 3
Argent's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Alexander (Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 91/500 (600 BC) [03-Aug-2016 16:03:03]
Diplomacy (Help Request): Kublai Khan (Mongolia) asks Napoleon REAL (France) for Writing; Napoleon REAL REFUSES.
XO Cognac begins: Chariot (4 turns)
Paris begins: Horse Archer (8 turns)
Lyons begins: Galley (25 turns)
Macau begins: Spearman (35 turns)

Here is the Save:

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Nice work! It sounds as though most things went as planned.

A boat (not sure if galley or work boat) leaves Nottingham sailing due north.

It had to be the Galley that we already saw there, as a Unit that an AI builds cannot move on the turn that it gets built.

I missed setting the EP rate to 0%

Do not worry. We may have made Missions marginally cheaper and may have made it a bit easier to capture enemy Spies in our territory.

Our scout meets a representative of Mehmed.

Well, we should be seeing what we could get him to do if we got him up to Pleased by gifting him a tech shortly after knowing him.
Mehmed:
i. Opens Borders at Cautious or higher
ii. Trades techs at Cautious or higher with a base WFYABTA value of 5 and a reasonably-high iTechTradeKnownPercent value at 40, meaning that multiple AIs whom he knows much know a tech before he'll trade it away
iii. Trades World Maps at Cautious or higher
iv. Trades Happiness Resources at Cautious or higher
v. Will declare war on another AI if he is Cautious or higher toward us and if he is Cautious or lower toward the other AI (so, he's pretty easy to bribe in as a war ally)
vi. Will stop trading with another AI if he is Pleased or higher toward us and if he is Annoyed or lower toward the other AI
vii. Will adopt a Civic at Pleased
viii. Will adopt a State Religion at Pleased
ix. He loves to build Units
x. His Unique Building is an Aqueduct, so he may be in competition with us to complete The Hanging Gardens
More info on Mehmed

Macau cannot locate the resources to build a Spearman, so the work a G Riv tile and build an Archer.

Okay, I suppose that we can simply plan to get a Chariot, but I am not sure why we were unable to work the GH For at 1 SW of the City for 2 H. There is no value in building a Spearman or an Axeman after having put Hammers into an Archer and a Chariot will be of far more use than an Archer.

What we can do instead is start building a Chariot, work the Wheat for 3 turns, then work a G Riv square (or steal the Fur) for 1 turn. Forget about the Spearman and forget about the Archer.

Kublai Khan

i. Opens Borders at Cautious or higher
ii. Trades techs at Annoyed or higher with a base WFYABTA value of 15 and a moderate iTechTradeKnownPercent value at 30, meaning that multiple AIs whom he knows much know a tech before he'll trade it away
iii. Trades World Maps at Pleased or higher
iv. Trades Happiness Resources at Cautious or higher
v. Will declare war on another AI if he is Pleased or higher toward us and if he is Pleased or lower toward the other AI (so, it's reasonably easy to get him to declare war on someone if we can get him to like us enough)
vi. Will stop trading with another AI if he is Pleased or higher toward us and if he is Annoyed or lower toward the other AI
vii. Will adopt a Civic at Pleased
viii. Will adopt a State Religion at Pleased
ix. He has a really nasty Unique Unit (a Keshik) that gets a First Strike and can ignore terrain movement costs
x. He is Aggressive, so his Melee Units come with Combat I and he's likely to build Barracks in multiple Cities
xi. His Unique Building is a Stable that gives +4 XP (which doesn't mean a whole lot since it's still only enough XP for 2 promotions when combined with a Barracks)
xii. Gives a nasty -2 Diplo penalty for refusing him
More info on Kublai

We discover a Portuguese Spy.

I suppose that he wanted to see what the fuss was all about with the Big Card Game...

Having received a book of free play coupons Khan thinks he can beg the secrets of writing from us. I refuse.

I thought that we were going to be giving into AIs' Demands/Requests except when we were about to go to war with them. That's a really cheap way to get positive Diplo.

Is there any way that we can reword our Diplo Policy to make it clearer? The alternative is to pause play whenever we get an AI asking us, but the Diplo Policy is supposed to help us from having to pause play and avoid having to wait for feedback whenever we encounter such as situation, by making the decisions in advance.

Hattie is studying Music.

There's not much that we can do about that and she will get the free Great Artist. With Music being so high up on her list of Tech Preferences, she was bound to research it at some point.


Looking at the real game...
That's some terrible luck, with St. Petersburg having 2-pop-whipped a Horse Archer, meaning that another Military Unit is likely to get created next turn.

As expected, but still not good news, is that Joao and Stalin have met each other.

Do you still have your teleportation setup to see what would happen to a Unit that unloads from a Galley inside of St. Petersburg when we declare war? Where would it get teleported?


For example, we could consider delaying the war until T94 if Units will get teleported 2 NE of St. Petersburg, as we could then get +1 Chariot from Cologne and +1 Horse Archer from Hamburg being Galley-chained and arriving in St. Petersburg and unloading in that City on T93 with 0 movement points.


Well, gifting a tech soon after knowing an AI is worth +4 Fair and Forthright Trading. It's too late to undo the -2 with Kublai, so gifting him a tech won't get him up to Pleased, so I suggest that we simply continue to keep him in the dark technologically.

Kublai has Open Borders with Stalin and Mehmed.

Mehmed has Open Borders with Kublai, Stalin, and Alex.

Mehmed is trading Fish to Alex, so Mehmed has at least one coastal City.

Both Mehmed and Kublai have access to Horse and Iron.

Kublai is getting Iron in trade from Stalin.

Stalin will be able to bribe Kublai to attack us.


How soon can Orleans get to Size 4? 16 + 7 F gives 23 /24 and a completed Horse Archer; 23 + 7 F gives 30 - 24 + 12 = 18 / 26 at Size 3 and a completed Lighthouse, then +7 F from working the Iron and having the Lighthouse while putting overflow Hammers into a Horse Archer will mean 25 / 26 Food at Size 3. One turn later, we could 2-pop-whip, which would delay the Horse Archer by 2 turns but would give us 2 extra turns of working the Iron square, giving us enough Hammers for both a Horse Archer and a Chariot.

Do we have a way to use a 1-pop-whipped Horse Archer if we get it out 2 turns sooner?


Lyons needs 2 turns to grow to Size 4 while working the G Riv square that it is currently working, but it could also grow to Size 4 in 2 turns by working the Wine Mine instead, so I'd suggest switching to working the Wine Mine.


London could complete it Monastery on T91, dump its overflow Hammers somewhere (into an Axeman?) on T92, build the Missionary on T93, then 2-pop-whip the Missionary on T94. The Missionary would exist on T95 and could move from Orleans on T96 to the G Riv Road at 1 SW of Paris on the other side of the River (1 E of the G Copper). We could still switch to a Christian State Religion on T96.

On T97, our Missionary can spread Christianity inside of Macau, since we actually have an extra turn, due to not needing that Missionary to spread until T97 just before the big heist, allowing for us to 2-pop-whip in London and allowing for us to get an Axeman with overflow Hammers.


Rather than another Horse Archer out of XO Cognac, I think that we should plan to 3-pop-whip another Settler out of there, since we can use more Settlers and it's one of the few Cities that can build Settlers for us quickly.


York probably doesn't need to immediately whip the Axeman once we hit City Size 2 and can work the Stone for a bit, until we're getting close to wanting to declare war on Churchill.


Please tell me what I did wrong with my test game (see the attached file), but my test game shows that Units at 1 NE of St. Petersburg will teleport to 2 SW of St. Petersburg. Units inside of St. Petersburg will teleport to 1 SW + 2 S of St. Petersburg. So, none of the Units are getting teleported to 2 NE of St. Petersburg.


Here's what we can do to salvage the situation:
T91
Warrior 1 unloads from Galley 5 to 1 NW on the GH For at 1 SW of Yakutsk, to free up a space on Galley 5
HA 5 loads into Galley 5
Galley 5 (with Chariot 6 and HA 5 aboard) sails 2 E (to 1 NW of St. Petersburg and 2 S of the GH Deer For)

T92
Galley 5 sails into St. Petersburg
Chariot 6 and HA 6 unload from Galley 5 directly into St. Petersburg with their full movement points available to them
Chariot 6 and HA 6 move 2 NE to the Grassland square that is 2 NE of St. Petersburg and is outside of Russia's Culture
Our Units at 1 NE of St. Petersburg also move 1 NE to the Grassland square that is 2 NE of St. Petersburg
Galley 3 sails 1 N and picks up Chariot 2 and Chariot 3
Galley 3 (with Chariot 2 and Chariot 3 aboard) sails 1 E (to SW + S of Yakutsk) to join up with Galley 1
Chariot 2 transfers to Galley 1
Galley 1 (with Chariot 8 and Chariot 2 aboard) sails 2 E to 1 NW of St. Petersburg (2 S of the GH Deer For)
Axeman 5 loads into Galley 3
Chariot 3 loads into Galley 4
Axeman 4 loads into Galley 3
Galley 4 (with Chariot 3 aboard) sails E to 1 NW of St. Petersburg (2 S of the GH Deer For)

T93
On this turn, we decide if we want to attack St. Petersburg with the Units that we have or whether we'd prefer to delay attacking by 1 turn in order to heal HA 4 and bring 3 more Chariots into the fight by attacking on T94, instead


After we have captured St. Petersburg, we can plan to gift it to Churchill and then load our troops into Galleys inside of St. Petersburg, then go after Yakutsk, then bring our troops back by Galley to go after Vlad, and around that time Stalin will hopefully be ready for a Cease Fire, or at least a Peace Treaty if the fighting has gone poorly for us, with Stalin being down by 3 Cities when we Cease Fire or take the Peace Treaty.


As for Hatty, we can arrive inside of Alexandria next turn and then unload our Units directly inside of Alexandria, to give them an extra turn of movement. I'd suggest moving southward with our Chariot and then waiting to move our Settler after we've seen what the Chariot has revealed.


Suggested Mini PPP
T91
Lyons switches G Riv to GH Riv Wine Mine

Macau switches Spearman to Chariot

Warrior 1 unloads from Galley 5 to 1 NW on the GH For at 1 SW of Yakutsk, to free up a space on Galley 5
HA 5 (currently on Galley 1) loads into Galley 5
Galley 5 (with Chariot 6 and HA 5 aboard) sails 2 E (to 1 NW of St. Petersburg and 2 S of the GH Deer For)

Our Scout explores deeper into Russian territory

Open Borders with Mehmed (he isn't anyone's Worst Enemy)

Open Borders with Kublai (he isn't anyone's Worst Enemy)

I don't see any good techs to gift to Mehmed, so let's not gift him anything now.

T92
If an AI other than Stalin or Churchill Demands/Requests a tech other than Horseback Riding at the start of a given turn, let's allow that AI to have said tech.

Galley 5 sails into St. Petersburg
Chariot 6 and HA 6 unload from Galley 5 directly into St. Petersburg with their full movement points available to them
Chariot 6 and HA 6 move 2 NE to the Grassland square that is 2 NE of St. Petersburg and is outside of Russia's Culture
Our Units at 1 NE of St. Petersburg also move 1 NE to the Grassland square that is 2 NE of St. Petersburg
Galley 3 sails 1 N and picks up Chariot 2 and Chariot 3
Galley 3 (with Chariot 2 and Chariot 3 aboard) sails 1 E (to SW + S of Yakutsk) to join up with Galley 1
Chariot 2 transfers to Galley 1
Galley 1 (with Chariot 8 and Chariot 2 aboard) sails 2 E to 1 NW of St. Petersburg (2 S of the GH Deer For)
Axeman 5 loads into Galley 3
Chariot 3 loads into Galley 4
Axeman 4 loads into Galley 3
Galley 4 (with Chariot 3 aboard) sails E to 1 NW of St. Petersburg (2 S of the GH Deer For)

Let's not move the other Military Units and Galley 5 just yet and figure out those movements as part of the next turnset.

Paris
2-pop-whip Horse Archer
Work: Deer, Copper, and Fur

XO Cognac
Suggest continue building the Chariot to plan to grow to Size 6 and 3-pop-whip another Settler

Orleans
EDIT: Build Lighthouse

Spoiler build item options :

We'll need to decide between:
i. 1-pop-whipping the Horse Archer on T93
ii. 2-pop-whipping the Horse Archer 1 turn later by completing the Lighthouse on T92, working a G Riv square on T93, and 2-pop-whipping on T94
iii. 2-pop-whipping the Horse Archer 2 turns later by completing the Lighthouse on T92, working the Iron on T93, working the Iron on T94, and 2-pop-whipping on T95

I'm currently leaning toward option ii.

London
Switch to building an Axeman to collect overflow Hammers (we can 2-pop-whip the Missionary and still have it arrive in time to spread on T97)

York
Don't whip yet
Work: Fish and Stone

Argent
Work: Deer

Hamburg
2-pop-whip the Horse Archer

Cologne
1-pop-whip the Chariot

EDIT: Worker 1 Move to the G Riv at 1 SW of Paris and Farm
Worker 2 Roads the GH Sheep
Worker 3 Camps the Deer
Worker 4 Chops the Gems
Worker 5 Chops the GH Riv For
Worker 6 Chops the G For
Worker 7 needs to be numbered (Ctrl + 7)
Worker 7 keeps Chopping the Iron's Forest

Galley 6 moves into Alexandria
Galley 6 unloads both Settler 6 and Chariot 9
Chariot 9 moves southward to explore
Let's figure out what to do with Settler 6 after we see what Chariot 9 reveals

Spy 009 moves 2 SW to the G Riv at 1 SW of Paris (1 E of the Copper)
Spies 008 and 010 move into Macau

After making those moves, we can figure out what to do with the rest of our Units and we can argue about how we might alter our City builds.

 

[Jersey Joe]

The answer to 2 of your questions is that I did not do things exactly right. Macau was built before the road was finished and did not yet have access to resources. Later when the road was finished I did think to go back to Macau when it had access to resources.

Second, the reason you teleported 2 SW not 2NE is that your test game is correct.
My test game is flawed. My test game has "fog of war" on the tiles 2 SW of St. Petersburg. Therefore, in my test game the only neutral territory visible is 2NE of St. Petersburg.

Nice Salvage operation to clean up my mess.

I agree with the above plan.
Will switch Orleans back to their build Plan before the discovery of Rostov.
Briefly, considered on T92 London dumps overflow into Settler and overflow from Whipping Missionary but dismissed idea. After finishing the Axeman should London build missionaries for out high producing cities?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

No worries about Macau. We can just claim that we wanted to build a Chariot out of there all along. Plus, your micro of getting +1 Food allows us to both give the Wheat back 1 turn sooner and to get in a turn working a G Riv Cottage.

That was our strategy, right? Work Cottages. It'll be nice to get in our first Cottage turn. Before Turn 100, our first one, haha.

Also, we probably would have had to delay the war regardless of where we would teleport, since Stalin seemed to have gotten the bright idea that "I learned Horseback Riding, I must put this new technology immediately to the test!" and proceeded to 2-pop-whip himself a Horse Archer at the first chance that he got. At least this way, we'll be putting all of our Horse Archers into the fight.

On the topic of a Chariot out of Macau, I'm very surprised that Hatty hasn't built another City yet. Figuring out where to place a City may not end up mattering at all (if she continues to refuse to build Settlers) or it could prove to be critical, if we can block her from settling until she gets a Galley, giving us enough time to make it to Turn 97 with her only having 3 Cities.

If we don't have to declare war on her, it won't be a challenge to get Open Borders with her again later, which it might otherwise be, given that she can't give us Fair and Forthright Trading for techs when she knows all of our techs, we'll have switched into a competing Religion, and having declared war on her won't sit too well with her. Losing Open Borders would mean losing the 20% discount for tech thefts from our second gift City, so avoiding a war by keeping her from settling more Cities in the short term is an important goal.


London can't put overflow Hammers into a Settler or a Worker just yet because we need London to be able to grow to Size 4 over the next 2 turns in order for us to be able to 2-pop-whip a Missionary there. But, I do like the way that you're thinking about how to get another Settler in England.

EDIT: I'm wrong, since the plan would be to 2-pop-whip the Missionary in 3 turns' time, and we only need 2 turns to grow. But, it's probably preferable to dump the Hammers into a build item that we'd slow-build while growing and only put Hammers into a Settler later, so that the Hammers won't decay if we delay making the Settler. London would be a good City in which to 2-pop-whip a Courthouse on Turn 98, for example, since it has extra Maintenance Costs (Colonial ones) due to being on another landmass.

Could York build a Settler? It would make 9 Hammers per turn at Size 2 while working the Fish + the Stone and slow-building a Settler. Or, it could grow to Size 4 needing 24 + 26 = 50 Food at a rate of 5 Food per turn (plus 1 turn to grow to Size 2), allowing it to whip out 60 Hammers worth of production.

So, say that we started to build a Settler at Size 2, it would take us 100 / 9 = 11.1 aka 12 turns.

Or, we could grow to Size 4 for 10 turns while slow-building an Axeman, putting in 4 Hammers per turn into the Axeman and thereby getting both an Axeman and part of a Settler--toss in the last Forest Chop and 1 turn of production at Size 4 and we'd be able to 2-pop-whip the Settler.

Essentially, we won't gift away York until Nottingham gets resettled so that we'll maintain 3 overseas domestic Trade Routes, so the timing of when we resettle Nottingham only matters from the perspective of the resettled Nottingham growing.

Thus, it seems reasonable to grow York to Size 4, slow-build an Axeman on the way there, then plan to 2-pop-whip a Settler with the help from a Chop (or else just have 3 extra turns of slow-building the Settler, since our Workers are already going to be quite busy clear-cutting the rest of the area).

in my test game the only neutral territory visible is 2NE of St. Petersburg

I think that you just stumbled upon a new tactic, although it is one that is hard to leverage well--deterministic teleportation by not revealing certain squares. It's certainly another nice trick to add to the bag 'o tricks to consider using when needed.


Macau doesn't have Trade Routes yet due to being settled before the Road was completed. Fortunately, Opening Borders with any AI will "retrigger" the Trade Route calculation, so don't be surprised to see us getting more Gold per Turn after Opening Borders with an AI.

I'm not sure if we can get Trade Routes without revealing a path to an AI, although it looks like there must be a Trade Network, as Resources are listed for both of Mehmed and Kublai. The answer is that we can get them, since we've been getting Trade Routes from Hatty and we hadn't revealed her Cities when we were getting said Trade Routes.

should London build missionaries for out high producing cities?

It's looking like we're running low on Christian AIs, so the value of being Christian may not be that strong anymore. It would actually be ideal to get and spread Islam, since at least we'd be obtaining Apostolic Palace votes and the ability to create Buildings that produce 2 base Hammers per turn. A City at Hatty might just get Islam being spread to it if she builds us a Missionary.

2 base Hammers become 3 final Hammers in a Bureaucratic capital. We're also not going to get Scientific Method in this game, so Monasteries won't become obsolete, but they probably still won't be great build items (becoming a bit better with the Apostolic Palace's Hammers).

We'll eventually want another Missionary for our second gift City, but not for a while yet, since our Spies would still need to get into position and start waiting at 3 N of XO Cognac, so we have a lot of time before we'd need said Missionary.

If we don't pick a Religious Civic, we won't need a Religion being spread around. It's arguable that we could try to spread Christianity to St. Petersburg, steal Philosophy, switch into Caste System + Pacifism, generate a Great Person, and use that Great Person in a Golden Age to switch into Bureaucracy + Hereditary Rule and to try to generate other Great People.


Regarding Cactus Pete's prodding, when are you typically available to play? If we have a rough target time in mind, we can try to get plans in place before that time, to help with keeping the pace of the game moving.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Normally, I would say I am available about 22/7 (need about 2 hours for naps). However, I just got back on line after an internet outage of about 11-12 hours, so I am a bit late responding to your last post.

When I asked about London building missionaries I was thinking we would be using free religion.

I guess for the time being XO Cognac is a settler factory.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Prod, prod.

BTW, when are we gifting Macau to Hats and stealing Math and Construction?

 

[Jersey Joe]

Prod, prod.

BTW, when are we gifting Macau to Hats and stealing Math and Construction?

The spies have started playing their 5 round elimination tournament which ends on T97 (1 turn delay while we adopt a state religion). Which is when we gift Macau to Hatty. Also, I think it is also when we plan on taking it back from her.
Then, if things go as planned, several courthouse get whipped on T98 and we finish chopping the Hanging Gardens on T101.

 

[Jersey Joe]

On the topic of a Chariot out of Macau, I'm very surprised that Hatty hasn't built another City yet. Figuring out where to place a City may not end up mattering at all (if she continues to refuse to build Settlers) or it could prove to be critical, if we can block her from settling until she gets a Galley, giving us enough time to make it to Turn 97 with her only having 3 Cities.

If we don't have to declare war on her, it won't be a challenge to get Open Borders with her again later, which it might otherwise be, given that she can't give us Fair and Forthright Trading for techs when she knows all of our techs, we'll have switched into a competing Religion, and having declared war on her won't sit too well with her. Losing Open Borders would mean losing the 20% discount for tech thefts from our second gift City, so avoiding a war by keeping her from settling more Cities in the short term is an important goal.

So Hatty keeps Macau?
Could it be that she cannot find a place to settle?
Maybe she can only sail around in the Mediterranean.

London can't put overflow Hammers into a Settler or a Worker just yet because we need London to be able to grow to Size 4 over the next 2 turns in order for us to be able to 2-pop-whip a Missionary there. But, I do like the way that you're thinking about how to get another Settler in England.

EDIT: I'm wrong, since the plan would be to 2-pop-whip the Missionary in 3 turns' time, and we only need 2 turns to grow. But, it's probably preferable to dump the Hammers into a build item that we'd slow-build while growing and only put Hammers into a Settler later, so that the Hammers won't decay if we delay making the Settler. London would be a good City in which to 2-pop-whip a Courthouse on Turn 98, for example, since it has extra Maintenance Costs (Colonial ones) due to being on another landmass.

Could York build a Settler? It would make 9 Hammers per turn at Size 2 while working the Fish + the Stone and slow-building a Settler. Or, it could grow to Size 4 needing 24 + 26 = 50 Food at a rate of 5 Food per turn (plus 1 turn to grow to Size 2), allowing it to whip out 60 Hammers worth of production.

So, say that we started to build a Settler at Size 2, it would take us 100 / 9 = 11.1 aka 12 turns.

Or, we could grow to Size 4 for 10 turns while slow-building an Axeman, putting in 4 Hammers per turn into the Axeman and thereby getting both an Axeman and part of a Settler--toss in the last Forest Chop and 1 turn of production at Size 4 and we'd be able to 2-pop-whip the Settler.

Essentially, we won't gift away York until Nottingham gets resettled so that we'll maintain 3 overseas domestic Trade Routes, so the timing of when we resettle Nottingham only matters from the perspective of the resettled Nottingham growing.

Thus, it seems reasonable to grow York to Size 4, slow-build an Axeman on the way there, then plan to 2-pop-whip a Settler with the help from a Chop (or else just have 3 extra turns of slow-building the Settler, since our Workers are already going to be quite busy clear-cutting the rest of the area).

I project York (size 2) finishing a slow build Axeman on T97. T98 York grows to size 3. T103 York grows to Size 4 and finishes building a Lighthouse. T108 York can 2-pop whip a settler. If on T102 Worker 5 moves 1S Horses, 1SW G For, and Chops; York can 2-pop whip a settler on T105 (I may have growth being a turn later than it actual is).

Based on London's revised micro, after the missionary is done, London should complete a courthouse and 2 Axeman by turn 99. Also, London could 2-pop whip a missionary on T102 and overflow completes another axeman on T103 (the missionary is for the new gift city)

Add in woody II and looks like we can Raze Nottingham.

Instead of a Lighthouse York could build a Chariot and still 2-pop whip a settler on T105, leaving York without a building.

Macau doesn't have Trade Routes yet due to being settled before the Road was completed. Fortunately, Opening Borders with any AI will "retrigger" the Trade Route calculation, so don't be surprised to see us getting more Gold per Turn after Opening Borders with an AI.

I rechecked, the Road was complete this turn, which is not yet over, and Macau was settled last turn
(I was relieved to find that it did not have a road so I did not mess up the build ).
Are trade routes automatically recalculated between turns?

Open Borders with Mehmed or Khan?

We'll eventually want another Missionary for our second gift City, but not for a while yet, since our Spies would still need to get into position and start waiting at 3 N of XO Cognac, so we have a lot of time before we'd need said Missionary.

If XO Cognac does not whip a Courthouse on T98 and instead steals the copper or fur from Paris on T98 it can 3-pop whip a settler on T99.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So Hatty keeps Macau?

If we keep Lyons, then yes, I think that this approach is best.

Could it be that she cannot find a place to settle?

We already see space for a couple of Cities to be fit in.

T103 York grows to Size 4 and finishes building a Lighthouse.

We're not going to keep York, as we can only keep 3 Cities in England, so infrastructure built there won't help us. World-Build yourself 4 Cities in England and check out the Colonial Maintenance Cost (inside of a City, hover your mouse over top of the Maintenance Costs for any City in England--particularly those above City Size 1) and you'll quickly understand why a 4th City is extremely cost-prohibitive.

Based on London's revised micro, after the missionary is done, London should complete a courthouse and 2 Axeman by turn 99. Also, London could 2-pop whip a missionary on T102 and overflow completes another axeman on T103 (the missionary is for the new gift city)

All of that sounds good to me. Note that I expect that we'll be able to build Catapults starting on T97.

Are trade routes automatically recalculated between turns?

Yes. Mid-turn can happen based on certain events, such as Opening Borders or declaring war.

Open Borders with Mehmed or Khan?

I wrote both of them in the Suggested Mini-PPP at the bottom of Message 903.

If XO Cognac does not whip a Courthouse on T98 and instead steals the copper or fur from Paris on T98 it can 3-pop whip a settler on T99.

Sure, getting another Settler sounds good to me.

When I asked about London building missionaries I was thinking we would be using free religion.

From an efficiency standpoint, it's preferable to build 10 Horse Archers (500 Hammers) and go out and capture a Happiness Resources (which would work for all of our Cities) than to build 12.5 Christian Missionaries (500 Hammers) and only having +1 Happiness in 12 of our Cities via Free Religion.

But, yes, Missionaries for the second gift City and for St. Petersburg sound like wise build items to sneak in there at some point.


After Hatty gets the second gift City, we'll declare war and recapture both of the gift Cities, hopefully having most or all of her useful techs by that point in time.

When exactly she'll get the second gift City will depend upon how successful we are in the first round of stealing, which techs she has that we are missing, how useful her further research is being, etc.


What might be really interesting is that by Hatty owning the first gift City for a while, it may be possible that by capturing it later, it could become a City that could be Liberated to her for Liberation credit. If that's true, then it may become a stepping-stone for us to get her up to Friendly status, if we have other Cities that we'd Liberate to her.


If we can keep pushing the game forward shortly after agreeing upon Mini PPPs, we can turn around and plan new Mini PPPs very quickly thereafter, then keep the game moving at a steady pace. As nice as it is to plan our wars well, our tech-stealing well, and our The Hanging Gardens build well, we will still have future planning tasks that we can't even begin to start planning until we've progressed in the game, such as Great-Person-generation, Oxford-creation, future tech-trading/stealing, future warring, and Railroad-building, so we need to leave some real-life time to perform those tasks.

If we get agreement upon a plan but the Active Player doesn't have time to play for a while, we may have to play hotseat, with someone else stepping up to play a Mini PPP (Cactus Pete could be an option, since he's around). As long as we're clear with our communication on when someone plans to play or doesn't have time to play, and thus we don't end up with two different people play the same mini-turnset, this way might be a way to keep the game moving forward.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I reworked micros for Orleans and XO Cognac (using worker 1 to complete a farm).
Orleans micro:
T92 overflow completes Lighthouse
T93 overflow into Horse Archer
T94-T95 slow build Horse Archer
T96 (anarchy)
T97 Overflow into either Courthouse or Horse Archer
T98 2-pop whip

XO Cognac: slow build Chariot
T92 Worker 1 moves 1 NW G Riv and Farms ( 3 turns to complete since partially farmed)
Growth to size 5 working 1 coast tile
T94 Worker 1 goes and builds a cottage.
Size 6 overflow from chariot goes into settler
T95 3-pop whip
T96 (anarchy)
T97 Overflow into Courthouse
T98 1-pop whip Courthouse?

Edit
Other than the above I am ready to go with Dhoomstriker's suggested mini PPP. Since we do not receive much comment or approval we should set reasonable limits to wait.

How can we deduce Hatty knows Philosophy? I know she has Monarch because it does not show as a tech she can research.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'm confused by the suggestion for Orleans... are we able to complete Horse Archer there at the end of Turn 95 without whipping? If yes, that approach sounds fine to me.

T94 Worker 1 goes and builds a cottage.

We'll only have time for one improvement (the Farm at 1 SW of Paris or the Cottage at 1 SE of Paris) before we'll need to Road the G Riv For at 1 NW of Paris, assuming that we want to at least prepare for being able to steal techs from Hatty with the surviving Spies from a second gift City as soon as possible. We may not need to do so as soon as we possibly can, but we might as well plan to need to do so as soon as we possibly can, in case we get terrible luck with our Spies.

I'm fine with the Farm instead of the Cottage, but after that, we should build our Road.

On the note of Spies, if we lose several of them, we may also want to consider building a few more replacement Spies just after stealing techs. It's a detail that is hard to plan for, since we're not quite sure how many Spies will survive.

Since we do not receive much comment or approval we should set reasonable limits to wait.

Well, what we've been doing for a while now is get feedback from at least 1 person who has reviewed the plan in detail, then play when consensus is reached. I am okay with that approach. What probably won't work is if the reviewer only has time to "rubber stamp" the plan without really reviewing it, as then it's not really being fair to the Active Player, since the review process is designed to help the Active Player.

How can we deduce Hatty knows Philosophy? I know she has Monarch because it does not show as a tech she can research.

It's the same reason as for Monarchy. She knows Meditation and Code of Laws, the two pre-requisite techs for Philosophy, and yet Philosophy does not show up in the Can Research column on the F4 TECHS screen.


I edited-in what I think were your only suggested changes (Farm with Worker 1 and Lighthouse in Orleans).

 

[Jersey Joe]

T91, 600BC
We open our Borders to Mehmed. We note that Megmed would like to trade for our Stone.
We open our Borders to Khan. We note that Khan would like to trade for our Stone.

Warrior 1 was getting seasick so he went ashore.

Between turns:
Peace Deal with Churchill expires.
We meet Darius. He knows Polytheism but will not trade it.
Darius has the holy city for Taoism.
We trade Darius Sheep for Corn.

T92, 575BC
Worker 1 wants to stay near the action so moves 1NE G Riv and works on completing a cottage.
Some crewmen try to jump ship so Galley 5's departure from St. Petersburg is delayed.

Notes:

Need to change Argent from working Iron to working Camped Deer.

Galley 4 can still move and has space for Warrior 1 (if he is over his seasickness).

Scout has 1.5 movement left. 1S plains Corn, 1SW Forest is inside a Green Border (might be some one we have not meet).

Some indecision in Cologne. Iron is available to work this turn next turn Orleans will take it back. Should we work it this turn and whip next turn?
I need to review Orleans micro for the next few turns.

I left a number of troops at 2NE of St. Petersburg with 1 movement.

Question: If an AI demands Stone should we give it?

I decided to go with Dhoom's original suggestion and build a cottage not a farm. Macau should be able to work the cottage for 2 turns. Can build a farm for XO Cognac after building a road NW of Paris. Possibly the farm can be built around the time XO Cognac needs it.

Session Turn Log from 600 BC to 575 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 91, 600 BC: Paris has grown to size 5.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Paris can hurry Chariot for 1⇴ with 29ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 56 turns.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Orleans has grown to size 4.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Orleans can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 29ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 37 turns.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Lyons can hurry Chariot for 1⇴ with 19ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 46 turns.
Turn 91, 600 BC: London has grown to size 3.
Turn 91, 600 BC: London can hurry Christian Monastery for 1⇴ with 35ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 29 turns.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Hamburg has been pacified.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Cologne has been pacified.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Stalin.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Hatshepsut.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Kublai Khan
Turn 91, 600 BC: Alexander refuses to talk.
Turn 91, 600 BC: You are the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Joao II, Stalin.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Churchill, Hatshepsut.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Alexander is the worst enemy of Frederick.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Joao II, Kublai Khan, Mehmed II
Turn 91, 600 BC: XO Cognac will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: York will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Churchill for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 91, 600 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Orleans. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.

Turn 92, 575 BC: Paris can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 28ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 55 turns.
Turn 92, 575 BC: XO Cognac has grown to size 5.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Orleans can hurry Lighthouse for 1⇴ with 25ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 46 turns.
Turn 92, 575 BC: York has grown to size 2.
Turn 92, 575 BC: York can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 13ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 19 turns.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Hamburg can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 12ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Cologne can hurry Chariot for 1⇴ with 12ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Stalin has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Darius I is the worst enemy of Mehmed II, Kublai Khan.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Mehmed II is the worst enemy of Darius I.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Darius I will trade Corn
Turn 92, 575 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Darius I

Autolog:

Spoiler :

Turn 91/500 (600 BC) [05-Aug-2016 06:13:32]
Macau begins: Chariot (30 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 70 per turn, 115 in the bank

After End Turn:
XO Cognac grows to size 5
Orleans finishes: Horse Archer
London finishes: Christian Monastery
York grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:
Player contact made: Darius I of Persia

Turn 92/500 (575 BC) [05-Aug-2016 06:28:15]
London begins: Axeman (5 turns)
Lyons begins: Chariot (3 turns)
A Camp was built near Argent

The Save.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Thanks for pushing things forward!

has space for Warrior 1 (if he is over his seasickness).

Perhaps he'll still be best used as bait near Yakutsk?

Forest is inside a Green Border (might be some one we have not meet).

Can we hover our mouse over top the square to see if a Civ's Name is listed at the bottom left of the screen where the summary about a square appears? Or, do you just see a hidden square with the edge of a Cultural Border visible?

Some indecision in Cologne. Iron is available to work this turn next turn Orleans will take it back. Should we work it this turn and whip next turn?

Your suggestion of making sure that the Iron keeps getting worked sounds reasonable.

We do want more troops, but that Chariot can't help out at St. Petersburg, so exactly when it appears may not matter too much.

Assuming that we capture St. Petersburg, gift it to Churchill so that Stalin doesn't come after our troops, sail to Yakutsk, sail to Vlad, and then possibly sail into St. Petersburg where we can unload and move to try to capture another weakly-defended City before Cease Firing, new troops will get used somewhere in that sequence but probably a delay of a turn won't matter as long as we keep having enough troops on the front lines to keep pushing our attacks forward without too much delay.

Question: If an AI demands Stone should we give it?

That's a tough question. It does encourage an AI to build Walls. It could also be used to speed up The Hanging Gardens. Maybe our best bet, assuming that we have 2 copies of Stone right now, is to gift it to an AI that it won't help much, such as Churchill or Joao, rather than being forced to turn down an AI who knows Mathematics.

Turn 91, 600 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Stalin.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Hatshepsut.

Hopefully, Hatty won't hate us too much for using Currency to get Stalin to Close Borders with Frederick. By the time that we gift a City to Hatty, we're likely to be Stalin's Worst Enemy, so Stalin (hopefully) won't hate us extra for gifting something to Hatty.

We trade Darius Sheep for Corn.

I'm going to assume that you checked to make sure that he isn't someone's Worst Enemy (or at least not an AI whom we care about--we probably wouldn't care if he's Alex's Worst Enemy, for example, given how Alex completely disappointed me this game by having 1 City and making the whole WFYABTA part of the game for him be useless--although probably still useful for Hatty if we want to get non-monopoly tech trades out of her).


I took a quick look at the real game, although I don't have time at the moment to help pump out another PPP. Some thoughts:
1. Yaroslavl looks so tempting with just 1 Axeman in it and no Walls yet (but a Barracks and a Granary that could make it an annoying troop-pumping City for Stalin). If our Scout doesn't reveal too much more territory, I wonder if we could set up teleport testing to see if Chariots 2 and 8 plus Chariot 3, assuming that they move to the G Cow Pasture Road at 1 SE of Moscow, could get teleported within striking distance of Yaroslavl. If yes, it might be worth delaying the attack on Stalin for 2 more turns to get our Chariots into position by Yaroslavl, so that we could capture that City, possibly grab the nearby Worker if we capture the City and have a Chariot remaining to move, gift the City to Churchill, then hide our Units inside of Yaroslavl until we get a Cease Fire with Stalin.

It would be worth it not to explore anymore with our Scout if teleport testing works given the current hidden squares that we see/don't see, so that we don't accidentally change where we'd teleport (2 SW of Yaroslavl on that Plains square looks to be the perfect spot to teleport to).


2. That's a lot of Desert to the south-west of Alexandria, but there's also a decent amount of land there without a southern coast in sight.

Maybe Settler 6 goes S > SE across of the River > SE (if that's a Road square, which it looks like it should be) otherwise S for the last move

Then, next turn, Chariot goes back to the Stone > then heads SE Flood Plains > maybe SE or maybe S, then we wait to see what the Chariot reveals before we figure out where to move the Settler.


3. Hamburg can steal the G For from Cologne


4. If teleport testing works and we decide to delay the war on Stalin for 2 turns to get our Chariots into position with movement points available to them, maybe Warrior 1 can walk toward the east side of Yakutsk, our Axemen can drop off on the GH For at 1 SW of Yakutsk, then that Galley which holds the Axemen could perhaps go back to pick up new Units that get built in our core Cities?


Also, maybe we should just decide not to give into any Request/Demand for Stone or any Strategic Resources (Horses, Iron, etc)... I can't say that I'd want any AI building Walls, not even England or Portugal.

 

[Jersey Joe]

The Green border is hidden by the Fog and just visible.
Horse Archer is no longer visible is St. Petersburg, he has been replaced by an axeman.

Here is a tentative preliminary suggested PPP for next 2 turns. (City builds and Worker moves/jobs; Argent is not up to date)

Spoiler :

Turn 93, 550 BC
Research Rate: 0%
Espionage Rate 0% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.

Paris
build: HA > Complete Chariot
Works: Deer, Copper, Fur

XO Cognac
build: Chariot
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse, Stone. Coast

Orleans
build: Horse Archer
Works: Fish, Cow, Iron

Lyons
build: Chariot
Works: Fish, Fur, Wine Mine

London
build: Switch to Missionary
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur, G For

York
build: Axeman
Works: Fish, Stone

Argent:
build: Workboat
Works: Camped Deer

Ruby Bay
build: Granary
Works: Fish

Macau
build: Chariot
Works: Wheat

Worker 1 builds Cottage
Worker 2 roads Copper
Worker 3 ?
Worker 7 ?
Ruby Bay (T93)
Worker 4 Pre-Chop the northern Gems and STOP
Worker 5 Pre-Chop the GH Riv For (1 N of the Fur) and STOP
Worker 6 Pre-Chop the 1 S G For and STOP

Turn 94, 525 BC
Research Rate: 0%
Espionage Rate 0% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.

Paris
build: Chariot > Chariot
Works: Deer, Copper, Fur

XO Cognac
build: Horse Archer ?
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse, Stone, Coast

Orleans
build: Horse Archer
Works: Fish, Cow, Iron, GH Mine

Lyons
build: 2-pop whip Galley
Works: Fish, Fur

London
build: Missionary exists and boards a Galley
Works: Fish, Horse,

York
build: Axeman
Works: Fish

Argent:
build: Workboat
Works: Camped Deer

Ruby Bay
build: Granary
Works: Fish

Macau
build: Chariot
Works: Wheat

Worker 1 builds Cottage
Worker 2 moves 1W, 1W, 1SW GH (1E of Lyons): Partial mine STOP.
Worker 3 ?
Worker 7 moves ?
Ruby Bay (T94)
Worker 4 Move into Ruby Bay
Worker 5 Move 1 W G Riv For
Worker 6 Move 1 SW G For (1 N of York) Reminder this Forest needs to be "enabled"

 

[Cactus Pete]

Concerned that, if we don't go ahead and take Pete'g, culture spread may foil our plans.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If the plan is to be able to complete a Horse Archer in Orleans without whipping, then the suggested approach sounds good.

Maybe have XO Cognac build a Settler for a turn on T94, then a Spy on T95, with us being able to whip the Settler from T95 onward at a moment's notice, whenever we decide to complete it. Another Spy is likely to be a welcome addition after we lose some of them to random number generation.

Lyons will be Size 4 on T93. Is the plan to work a G For while growing for a bit at Size 4 so that we'll regrow to Size 3 reasonably quickly after whipping our Galley there, allowing us to work the Wine for all but 1 turn?

For London, I think that we're dumping Hammers into an Axeman on T92, starting on a Missionary on T93 by putting less than 10 Hammers into it, and on T94 2-pop-whipping it. On T95 it will exist and on T97 it will arrive in Macau with enough movement remaining to spread Christianity inside of Macau on T97.

Worker 3 and Worker 7 are easy... they can both plan to complete Chops into Argent's Granary on T97. I'm not sure that we want to get another Iron connected (so that we don't have to refuse an AI Demanding/Requesting Iron from us), so we simply have Worker 7 Chop the Iron Forest and then move 1 E GH For and Chop that square, then Worker 3 can move 1 E TunH For and Chop that square. Since Tundra takes 1 turn longer to Chop, both Workers will be able to finish their Chops on T97, just after having stolen Mathematics.

On T92, Galley 4 sails 2 E to join Galley 1 at 1 NW of St. Petersburg, with both of those Galleys likely unloading their Chariots inside of St. Petersburg on T93 and having those Chariots head south-east along the Roads. On T94, the 3 Chariots could even move along one more Road segment, having 1.5 movement points remaining, and will hopefully teleport to 2 SW of Yaroslavl.

Our Scout should just stay in place until we declare war, to give us the greatest chance of effectively using the new deterministic-teleportation-by-not-revealing-other-squares tactic.

I haven't done the teleportation testing, but moving 5 squares along the Roads toward Yaroslavl sounds promising with only 1 square outside of Russia's territory having been revealed by the Scout , and with us wanting to teleport to that exact square.


The Great Wall produced 2 Culture per turn from 1920 BC and will have started producing 4 Culture as of 920 BC (or whatever the turn that comes after that date is if there is no turn that corresponds to 920 BC).

A Palace and Judaism has meant 3 Culture per turn minus 2 turns of Anarchy, so about 93 turns times 3 Culture for 93 * 3 = 279 on T95.

Will The Great Wall's Culture be enough to reach 500 Culture? We'll need to figure out the turns that correspond to those years.


St. Petersburg and Vlad don't have Culture-producing Buildings, while Stalin doesn't know Code of Laws for Caste System, and thus neither of those 2 Cities could expand their Cultural Borders before we'd attack. As a total rough calculation, 50 turns times 2 Culture and 30 turns times 4 Culture means 220 more Culture, so as long as The Great Wall hasn't existed for that long (it hasn't), we should be safe from Russia's Culture expanding over our attacking point near St. Petersburg.


EDIT: I'm also thinking that we should probably just keep our 2 Axemen on a Galley. After St. Petersburg, our mounted Units can probably head up to Vlad, to be accompanied by 2 Axemen that get dropped off to join them.

With us possibly capturing Yaroslavl, we may need to declare war on England relatively soon before Churchill can whip a lot of Units out of Yaroslavl, so being able to gift Vlad before we need to recapture Yaroslavl will mean probably needing to attack St. Petersburg -> Vlad -> Yakutsk, which fits in better with hardly any of our Units (except for our Warrior 1) remaining near Yakutsk.

 

[Jersey Joe]

If the plan is to be able to complete a Horse Archer in Orleans without whipping, then the suggested approach sounds good. I am going to check since I thought Orleans would grow 1 turn sooner.

Maybe have XO Cognac build a Settler for a turn on T94, then a Spy on T95, with us being able to whip the Settler from T95 onward at a moment's notice, whenever we decide to complete it. Another Spy is likely to be a welcome addition after we lose some of them to random number generation. I like this idea. Also, I need to check, the overflow from 2-pop whipping a courthouse might be another potential spy.

Lyons will be Size 4 on T93. Is the plan to work a G For while growing for a bit at Size 4 so that we'll regrow to Size 3 reasonably quickly after whipping our Galley there, allowing us to work the Wine for all but 1 turn? I did not know of a Plan, but I like this one.

Edit: In Egypt, I am curious about the road the Chariot is on and next turn would like to move 1NW to see what is there.

For London, I think that we're dumping Hammers into an Axeman on T92, starting on a Missionary on T93 by putting less than 10 Hammers into it, and on T94 2-pop-whipping it. On T95 it will exist and on T97 it will arrive in Macau with enough movement remaining to spread Christianity inside of Macau on T97. Correct, and 2-pop whipping a courthouse t98.

Worker 3 and Worker 7 are easy... they can both plan to complete Chops into Argent's Granary on T97. I'm not sure that we want to get another Iron connected (so that we don't have to refuse an AI Demanding/Requesting Iron from us), so we simply have Worker 7 Chop the Iron Forest and then move 1 E GH For and Chop that square, then Worker 3 can move 1 E TunH For and Chop that square. Since Tundra takes 1 turn longer to Chop, both Workers will be able to finish their Chops on T97, just after having stolen Mathematics. What about, Worker 7 moves 1 S GH For and Chops. When done Worker 7 has option of move 1 NW GH For deer and camp the deer, 1N GH Iron and mine, or 1NE GH and chop. Suggestion: I am not sure of growth, T94 build Lighthouse, T95-T96 Granary, T97 chops finish Granary just in time to grow to size 2 , T98 1-pop whip Lighthouse, on T98 Workers move to chop forests for settler.

On T92, Galley 4 sails 2 E to join Galley 1 at 1 NW of St. Petersburg, with both of those Galleys likely unloading their Chariots inside of St. Petersburg on T93 and having those Chariots head south-east along the Roads. On T94, the 3 Chariots could even move along one more Road segment, having 1.5 movement points remaining, and will hopefully teleport to 2 SW of Yaroslavl.

Our Scout should just stay in place until we declare war, to give us the greatest chance of effectively using the new deterministic-teleportation-by-not-revealing-other-squares tactic.

I haven't done the teleportation testing, but moving 5 squares along the Roads toward Yaroslavl sounds promising with only 1 square outside of Russia's territory having been revealed by the Scout , and with us wanting to teleport to that exact square.

Are we going to keep Yaroslavl or gift Churchill?

The Great Wall produced 2 Culture per turn from 1920 BC and will have started producing 4 Culture as of 920 BC (or whatever the turn that comes after that date is if there is no turn that corresponds to 920 BC).

A Palace and Judaism has meant 3 Culture per turn minus 2 turns of Anarchy, so about 93 turns times 3 Culture for 93 * 3 = 279 on T95.

Will The Great Wall's Culture be enough to reach 500 Culture? We'll need to figure out the turns that correspond to those years.

I need to check, off the top of my head; 1920bc = T52, 900BC = T79 so have: (27 * 2) + (16 * 4) = 118 +279 = 397
Just using 4 culture from T52 on: 43 * 4 = 172 +279 = 451

 

[Dhoomstriker]

"In the Desert, where there is running water, you will find Civilization."

So, sure, our Chariot can explore that way while the Settler heads along the River.

Try to stick to Roads as much as possible.

The goal is to find a semi-decent location to settle and settle there to prevent Hatty from settling at such a location or further past that location.

Even if we don't get Orleans' Horse Archer soon, it's not necessarily a bad idea to dump Hammers into one.

As long as Worker 7 is Chopping the Iron Forest into the Work Boat and then moves to Chop one of the GH Fors (that isn't a Deer), I don't see a problem with picking a different GH For. With a Granary and possibly a Lighthouse, there will probably be more of an emphasis on Food, so, sure, going to the SE + S Forest to Chop it after Chopping the Iron and then planning to Camp the second Deer is a decent plan.


For Yaroslavl, if we can capture it and have 2 Chariots, 1 at full health, defending it, we can keep it for 1 turn to lure the Moscow Units there, possibly defending against the Moscow Chariot, then plan to gift it to Churchill. Or, we could just gift it to Churchill immediately to not even dare to fight a defensive fight. Our Units can hide inside of Yaroslavl to heal and then get into position to retake the City before Churchill can whip a Unit there, assuming that we are ready to declare war on Churchill at that time, hopefully with us having a small enough time remaining before the Cease Fire with Stalin to be able to keep the City without it being attacked by a large Russian force.

We can't capture and hold Yaroslavl with just Chariots, but with Churchill temporarily holding it for us, then us retaking it from Churchill, the hope is that Stalin won't be able to get enough Units to attack the City before we get our Cease Fire with Stalin.

Our Egypt Galley might as well sail northward to be in a position to Galley-chain another Unit to Egypt to help with scouting... perhaps the timing of when we'd be able to complete our Galley plus Chariot in Lyons in combination with Galley-chaining the Chariot would be the situation we use to determine when to whip the Galley in Lyons.

That would actually mean whipping the Lyons Galley on T93, completing the Galley on T94 and moving it 2 S, then on T95 loading the new Chariot from Lyons into that Galley and Galley-chaining the Chariot to the southern Galley at 4 N of Hatty's City (or, say, at 2 SE of 2 S of Lyons, where we might reveal a bit more of Greece's land but still being 4 N (plus a bit east) of Hatty's City. The turn after that, we'd be able to unload our Chariot inside of Hatty's City and have it move to explore some more.


There's another page in the thread...

 

[Jersey Joe]

Orleans cannot build a HA on T95 without whipping (it has 43 hammers on T95).
XO Cognac is going to be limited to size 6. If we are delaying whipping a settler should I turn on "Avoid Growth"?

Just to confirm, we are whipping a Galley in Lyons turn 93 to rendezvous with the galley currently in Egypt.