SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Jersey Joe]

Welcome back Pete.
In light of Stalin defending his northern cities with Archers, I thought we should look when we could start producing Horse Archers. Here are a few micros for the next few turns (current turn included) for comment. The (A) choices are my preference.

Paris:
A) T89 1-pop whip Spy; T90 Build Spy from overflow; T91 Start Horse Archer;
B) T89 1-pop whip Spy: T90 Build Horse Archer from overflow;
C) T89 Finish Spy; T90 Start Horse Archer; T91 2-pop whip Horse Archer; T92 Build Axeman from overflow; Total new Hammers for T89+T90 cannot exceed 10 (work Fur instead of Copper).

XO Cognac:
A) T89 1-pop whip Spy; T90 Build Spy from overflow; T91 Build Spy from overflow;
B) T89 1-pop whip Spy; T90 Build Spy from overflow; T91 Start Horse Archer;
C) T89 1-pop whip Spy; T90 Build Spy from overflow; T91 Build Axeman;

Orleans:
A) Builds Spy T90 Start Horse Archer; T91 2-pop whip Horse Archer;
B) Builds Spy T90 2-pop whips Lighthouse; T91 Start Horse Archer;

Lyons: T89 1-pop whip Chariot; T90 Build Spy from overflow;

London No Change, T89 2-pop whip Spy;

Argent T90 Finish worker start Workboat

Ruby Bay no chopping till steal Mathematics

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'm extremely hesitant to 1-pop-whip Paris and XO Cognac. Happiness is still our limiting factor in our first three Cities.

Orleans, incredibly, does not need to whip, by getting just enough Hammers to complete its current build item.

XO Cognac can also complete 2 Spies without needing to whip. In fact, if XO Cognac were to whip now, 100% of those Hammers would turn into Gold. We're actually better off working the Fur in XO Cognac on Turn 89 than the Horse, since we're about to have 83/40 Hammers in a Spy, and the most Hammers that can overflow will be 40 Hammers, meaning that BUFFY will turn 3 of those Hammers into Gold.

Instead of getting 2 of those Hammers turning into Gold and 1 Commerce, we could get 4 Commerce by working the Fur (since we get 2 less Hammers by working the Fur but we get 3 more Commerce by working the Fur).

Argent's new Worker is probably better off being sent to the Iron, where he could build a Mine on top of the Forest to delay when we complete the Forest Chop.

Right now, we have 4 Spies.

One more Spy from Paris and one more Spy from XO Cognac can arrive in time to get their full Stationary Bonuses, giving us the 6 Spies that we said that we wanted to get our key techs.

Any additionally-built Spies will arrive late to the party--even the Orleans-built one will be 1 turn late and the second one out of XO Cognac will be 1 turn late.

I think that it will still be worth it to get 2 more late-arriving Spies out of London by 2-pop-whipping London now (assuming that that was the plan for getting our Missionary out by T94--I forget if it was the case), but perhaps we can skip building additional Spies elsewhere, just getting 1 Spy out of Paris, 2 Spies out of XO Cognac, 1 Spy out of Orleans, and 2 Spies out of London.

We can switch to 100% Gold now, since we have over 900 EPs:

Mathematics = 72 EPs (373 Flasks)
Construction = 101 EPs (522 Flasks)
Code of Laws = 101 EPs (522 Flasks)
Monarchy = 87 EPs (448 Flasks)
Civil Service = 233 EPs (1196 Flasks--she doesn't know it in the real game yet, though)
Philosophy = 233 EPs (1196 Flasks)

260 EPs already gets us our 3 key techs of Matehmatics, Code of Laws, and Monarchy.

On Turn 95, we can learn Priesthood at 100% Science, on Turn 96 we'll be in Anarchy when we switch to Christianity, then on Turn 97 we can be at 100% Science with the overflow Flasks going into Civil Service after we've stolen Mathematics and Code of Laws.


One Horse Archer out of Paris, one Horse Archer out of XO Cognac, and one Horse Archer out of Orleans may be all that we'll be able to whip in the short term. If we plan things right, we'll be at Size 4 or greater in our mature Cities as of roughly Turn 95 (since Turn 96 will be a turn of Anarchy), and then on Turn 97 we put 1 turn of Hammers into cheap Courthouses and 2-pop-whip them on Turn 98, giving us significantly reduced Maintenance Costs and also giving us 2 EPs per turn per Courthouse, meaning that we might never need a 100% Espionage Rate again.

Orleans can complete the Spy, build a Horse Archer, 2-pop-whip the Horse Archer, and then complete the cheap Lighthouse (Lighthouses cannot be 2-pop-whipped by our Leader as they require only 30 base Hammers due to our production bonus on building Lighthouses and Courthouses).


Size 13 St. Petersburg should be amphibiously captured at the start of the war. That City is such a prize, I am already drooling. Capturing a City of that Size is a game-changer, making Munich look very unappealing. It gives us a chance to have a very strong Great-Person-generating City without having to grow the population points--we just need enough troops to capture and defend it. By the time that we capture it and it comes out of City Revolt, we'll already have Monarchy in hand for Hereditary Rule. The tougher question to answer at that point will be whether we want to revolt into Organized Religion, Theocracy, or Pacifism at the same time.


We can aim for another round of tech theft from a north-west-built City later on, say, stealing techs as of about Turn 110 or a bit sooner.


Paris could go:
T89 Finish Spy
T90 20 + 35 - 40 = 15 Hammers overflowing into a Chariot
T91 Build Horse Archer
T92 Whip Horse Archer
T93 Horse Archer exists and complete Chariot
T94 Chariot exists


It's hard to get Axemen to the front lines. So, I like the idea of Hamburg and Cologne making the one-movement-point Units. Russia has Horses, so we could probably go: Spear -> Axe out of Hamburg and get an Axe out of Cologne.


Lyons should be planning to 2-pop-whip a Galley as its next build item. I'm not sure where to best dump our Hammers before then--perhaps into another Chariot that could try to reveal Athens so that we could ask Frederick to keep attacking Athens?


Galley 2 can wait at 1 SE of London until the second Spy gets built and then can move into Orleans, with the first Spy being able to move on the same turn and the second Spy being able to move on the turn after that.


The toughest part will be to figure out the ideal logistics for our Units hitting up Stalin.

I'd probably have our Scout move into St. Petersburg and then south-east from there, trying to find Russia's nearby Cities so that we can get a feel for how many Units might come to counter-attack us after we've stolen St. Petersburg on the first turn of the war.


As for Ruby Bay, we need to figure out if we're going to Road and Pre-Chop or just Pre-Chop Forests. The second Gems square should get Roaded, but I'm not sure about the other squares--we'll need to figure out how to get the most out of our Workers. Roads only cost +1 Worker turn, so they might be the way to play.

 

[Jersey Joe]

In fact, if XO Cognac were to whip now, 100% of those Hammers would turn into Gold. We're actually better off working the Fur in XO Cognac on Turn 89 than the Horse, since we're about to have 83/40 Hammers in a Spy, and the most Hammers that can overflow will be 40 Hammers, meaning that BUFFY will turn 3 of those Hammers into Gold.

Instead of getting 2 of those Hammers turning into Gold and 1 Commerce, we could get 4 Commerce by working the Fur (since we get 2 less Hammers by working the Fur but we get 3 more Commerce by working the Fur).

Excess overflow is something I did not even consider Will change to working Fur this turn.

Argent's new Worker is probably better off being sent to the Iron, where he could build a Mine on top of the Forest to delay when we complete the Forest Chop.

What about the new Worker first building a road to the iron? If we are waiting for Math, we could also road and camp the GH For deer.

One more Spy from Paris and one more Spy from XO Cognac can arrive in time to get their full Stationary Bonuses, giving us the 6 Spies that we said that we wanted to get our key techs.

Any additionally-built Spies will arrive late to the party--even the Orleans-built one will be 1 turn late and the second one out of XO Cognac will be 1 turn late.

I think that it will still be worth it to get 2 more late-arriving Spies out of London by 2-pop-whipping London now (assuming that that was the plan for getting our Missionary out by T94--I forget if it was the case), but perhaps we can skip building additional Spies elsewhere, just getting 1 Spy out of Paris, 2 Spies out of XO Cognac, 1 Spy out of Orleans, and 2 Spies out of London.

The Spies that arrive 1 turn late get a 40% discount. I would use them to steal Math and Monarchy and the Spies with the 50% discount for Construction and Code of Laws. If we still have Spies, Calendar, followed by Aesthetics? Then Polytheism and Monotheism?
Also, I am not sure of the London micro for getting 2 spies and a missionary built on a timely basis. Edit: see post 864 below for London micro I am using.

We can switch to 100% Gold now, since we have over 900 EPs:

260 EPs already gets us our 3 key techs of Matehmatics, Code of Laws, and Monarchy.

On Turn 95, we can learn Priesthood at 100% Science, on Turn 96 we'll be in Anarchy when we switch to Christianity, then on Turn 97 we can be at 100% Science with the overflow Flasks going into Civil Service after we've stolen Mathematics and Code of Laws.

One Horse Archer out of Paris, one Horse Archer out of XO Cognac, and one Horse Archer out of Orleans may be all that we'll be able to whip in the short term. If we plan things right, we'll be at Size 4 or greater in our mature Cities as of roughly Turn 95 (since Turn 96 will be a turn of Anarchy), and then on Turn 97 we put 1 turn of Hammers into cheap Courthouses and 2-pop-whip them on Turn 98, giving us significantly reduced Maintenance Costs and also giving us 2 EPs per turn per Courthouse, meaning that we might never need a 100% Espionage Rate again.

Orleans can complete the Spy, build a Horse Archer, 2-pop-whip the Horse Archer, and then complete the cheap Lighthouse (Lighthouses cannot be 2-pop-whipped by our Leader as they require only 30 base Hammers due to our production bonus on building Lighthouses and Courthouses).

Sounds like a Plan.

As for Ruby Bay, we need to figure out if we're going to Road and Pre-Chop or just Pre-Chop Forests. The second Gems square should get Roaded, but I'm not sure about the other squares--we'll need to figure out how to get the most out of our Workers. Roads only cost +1 Worker turn, so they might be the way to play.

I was thinking that while waiting for Math, 1 worker roads and prechops second gem hill, the other 2 workers each road and prechop a different tile on the way back to York where they will chop out the settler to replace Nottingham.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Here is the London micro I an using:

We could also have London build a Spy this turn and 2-pop-whip it next turn.

If we did so:
T88 8 H go into a Spy this turn
T89 68 Hammers in a Spy plus 6 H go in this turn
T90 18 + 28 + 6 + 6 H = 58 H going into the Monastery by the end of this turn
T91 Complete the Monastery with at least 4 overflow H
T92 Get at least 10 Hammers going into a Missionary (4 H overflow plus easily make 6 H)
T93 1-pop-whip the Missionary
T94 Missionary exists and boards a Galley
T95 Missionary unloads in Orleans and can move this turn
T96 Missionary arrives in gift City with partial movement points and spreads in gift City
T96 Revolt to Christianity
T97 We can start stealing techs if we don't want to wait for additional Spies to get their full Stationary Bonus

Only 1 spy not 2.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If we are going for a Work Boat in Argent instead of a Work Boat being built elsewhere, we should Chop it as soon as we can, given that our Cultural Borders are going to expand over the Fish there very soon and then we can start benefit quickly from actually working the Fish Resource, earning back more than the 10 Hammers missing from the Forest Chop.

Alternatively, we complete the Work Boat with overflow Hammers from another City, such as in Orleans, and start on a Granary in Argent after the Worker. Whether we should Chop 2 Forests into the Granary before Mathematics or not would depend upon how soon we could make the 20 missing Hammers from the Granary and how much Food value the Granary would provide prior to learning Mathematics.

For Chopping a Work Boat, what we could do is build a Work Boat while working the Iron after the Worker gets completed, then send the Worker to some square to Chop, probably the Iron itself, so that we'd get 20 Hammers from the Chop and the other 10 Hammers from squares being worked. For example, Iron + City Centre for 2 turns = 8 Hammers and Deer + City Centre for 1 turn = 10 Hammers.


If 2 or more Spies exist on a square, I'm pretty certain that we'll get a lower chance of success. So, our last Spy attempt should probably be with a 50% Stationary Bonus Spy, meaning that we'd try for the cheaper techs (Polytheism, for example) earlier than the last Spy.

Testing would be good for double-checking, but I think that the percentage chance of success is only altered by there being 2 or more Spies on the same square as the Spy, regardless of how many more Spies there are than 2, but testing should be done to double-check this belief.


It depends upon how fast Ruby Bay can grow, but if it can grow to Size 3 before T97 (counting 1 turn of Anarchy on T96), we'd probably want that Gems square Mined before learning Mathematics, as we could earn the value from working that square in exchange for the missing 10 Hammers.

Since we're already putting one 20-Hammer Chop into a Granary, if we can make 20 Hammers before T97 (including counting 1 turn of Anarchy on T96), it might be worth it to take a second 20-Hammer Chop and get that Granary completed earlier, thereby earning more Food in place of the missing 10 Hammers from the Chop.


Basically, whether we delay Chopping or not depends upon the value that the Chops can gain us prior to learning Mathematics, such as extra Food from an earlier Granary or extra Food and Commerce from an earlier-completed Work Boat.


RE: Missionary
Yes, you are right, we only have the current turn's Spy coming out of London. Sorry for confusing the issue.



Looking at Argent...
T90, T91, and T92 Worker 3 Camps Deer
T93 Worker 3 moves to a Tundra Forest (say, TunH For at 1 E of the Deer)
T94, T95, T96, and T97 Worker 3 Chops (since I think that Tundra Chops take 4 turns)

So, we'll be getting that Chop on the turn that we learn Mathematics, so we'd want to complete that Chop after learning Mathematics.

If the Work Boat will come from elsewhere, the new Worker can complete its Chop into a Granary after Mathematics comes in, since completing the Chop before Mathematics comes in won't help out.

But, if we're Chopping out a Work Boat, we could Chop:
NE TunH For on T94
OR
Iron For on T93
OR
SE + E (1 E of the Iron) GH For on T94

Then, however, we'd need that Worker to Chop a second Forest for the Granary, which could happen at the soonest on T97 if we first Chopped the Iron and then Chopped the GH For that is 1 E of there.

So, that could be our plan:
i. Worker 3 Camps the Deer then moves 1 E TunH For then Chops, not finishing the Chop until after Mathematics has been learned.

ii. The new Worker moves to the Iron, Chops it into a Work Boat, then moves 1 E GH For and Chops, not finishing the Chop until after Mathematics has been learned.

iii. After the Worker gets built, we start on a Work Boat (instead of continuing to build the Granary), and we work the Iron until the Deer gets Camped, then switch to working the Deer either on the turn that it gets Camped or on the next turn, depending upon how many turns we'd need to keep working the Iron to get the 10 Hammers needed to complete the work Boat


Looking at Ruby Bay...
We will be at Size 1 for 5 Turns: 89, 90, 91, 92, and 93
T94 and T95 will have us being at Size 2, and then we'll be in Anarchy, and on T97 we'd still be at Size 2, so we won't be able to work the third Gems square. So, we don't need the Gems square Mined before Mathematics comes in.

We'd have 21 + 5 * 1 H + 2 * 3 H for 21 + 5 + 6 = 32 H... which is not enough for a second 20-Hammer Chop to finish off the Granary, so Chopping the second Forest before learning Mathematics won't help us, either.

So, just plan to complete a Chop into the Granary on Turn 97, after we learn Mathematics.

We'd be at Size 2 on T97, T98, and T99, meaning that we'll want the 2nd Gems square Mined by T100, which is plenty of time for a single Worker to Mine it if we Chop the 2nd Gems square on T97.

T97 seems to be a good target date for completing at least one Chop, to get our Granary at about as an efficient of a time as possible.

 

[Jersey Joe]

If we are going for a Work Boat in Argent instead of a Work Boat being built elsewhere, we should Chop it as soon as we can, given that our Cultural Borders are going to expand over the Fish there very soon and then we can start benefit quickly from actually working the Fish Resource, earning back more than the 10 Hammers missing from the Forest Chop.

Alternatively, we complete the Work Boat with overflow Hammers from another City, such as in Orleans, and start on a Granary in Argent after the Worker. Whether we should Chop 2 Forests into the Granary before Mathematics or not would depend upon how soon we could make the 20 missing Hammers from the Granary and how much Food value the Granary would provide prior to learning Mathematics.

For Chopping a Work Boat, what we could do is build a Work Boat while working the Iron after the Worker gets completed, then send the Worker to some square to Chop, probably the Iron itself, so that we'd get 20 Hammers from the Chop and the other 10 Hammers from squares being worked. For example, Iron + City Centre for 2 turns = 8 Hammers and Deer + City Centre for 1 turn = 10 Hammers.


If 2 or more Spies exist on a square, I'm pretty certain that we'll get a lower chance of success. So, our last Spy attempt should probably be with a 50% Stationary Bonus Spy, meaning that we'd try for the cheaper techs (Polytheism, for example) earlier than the last Spy.

Testing would be good for double-checking, but I think that the percentage chance of success is only altered by there being 2 or more Spies on the same square as the Spy, regardless of how many more Spies there are than 2, but testing should be done to double-check this belief.


It depends upon how fast Ruby Bay can grow, but if it can grow to Size 3 before T97 (counting 1 turn of Anarchy on T96), we'd probably want that Gems square Mined before learning Mathematics, as we could earn the value from working that square in exchange for the missing 10 Hammers.

Since we're already putting one 20-Hammer Chop into a Granary, if we can make 20 Hammers before T97 (including counting 1 turn of Anarchy on T96), it might be worth it to take a second 20-Hammer Chop and get that Granary completed earlier, thereby earning more Food in place of the missing 10 Hammers from the Chop.


Basically, whether we delay Chopping or not depends upon the value that the Chops can gain us prior to learning Mathematics, such as extra Food from an earlier Granary or extra Food and Commerce from an earlier-completed Work Boat.


RE: Missionary
Yes, you are right, we only have the current turn's Spy coming out of London. Sorry for confusing the issue.
Looking at Argent...
T90, T91, and T92 Worker 3 Camps Deer
T93 Worker 3 moves to a Tundra Forest (say, TunH For at 1 E of the Deer)
T94, T95, T96, and T97 Worker 3 Chops (since I think that Tundra Chops take 4 turns)

So, we'll be getting that Chop on the turn that we learn Mathematics, so we'd want to complete that Chop after learning Mathematics.

If the Work Boat will come from elsewhere, the new Worker can complete its Chop into a Granary after Mathematics comes in, since completing the Chop before Mathematics comes in won't help out.

But, if we're Chopping out a Work Boat, we could Chop:
NE TunH For on T94
OR
Iron For on T93
OR
SE + E (1 E of the Iron) GH For on T94

Then, however, we'd need that Worker to Chop a second Forest for the Granary, which could happen at the soonest on T97 if we first Chopped the Iron and then Chopped the GH For that is 1 E of there.

So, that could be our plan:
i. Worker 3 Camps the Deer then moves 1 E TunH For then Chops, not finishing the Chop until after Mathematics has been learned.

ii. The new Worker moves to the Iron, Chops it into a Work Boat, then moves 1 E GH For and Chops, not finishing the Chop until after Mathematics has been learned.

iii. After the Worker gets built, we start on a Work Boat (instead of continuing to build the Granary), and we work the Iron until the Deer gets Camped, then switch to working the Deer either on the turn that it gets Camped or on the next turn, depending upon how many turns we'd need to keep working the Iron to get the 10 Hammers needed to complete the work Boat

I think Argent should be as self-sufficient as possible. Therefore, it should build its own Work Boat and not rely on either Orleans or Hamburg to find a "spare" 30 hammers.

I agree we should raze Yakutsk and replace it using an Argent built settler. Suggetion: New Worker 7? moves to and chops Iron into Work boat; then roads Iron before moving 1E to GH For where he will chop and road.

Edited based on Dhoom's edit We wait to chop in Ruby Bay until learn Math.
Question: What is best way to build the Hanging Gardens in Ruby Bay?

I thought having more than 2 Spies in 1 location increased the chance of getting discovered, but did not affect the chance of successfully gaining knowledge of a technology.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Suggetion: New Worker 7? moves to and chops Iron into Work boat; then roads Iron before moving 1E to GH For where he will chop and road.

What we'd want to do is check the timing of when the Granary would be completed by Chopping without Roading. If we'd earn some Food in the Granary by delaying the Road, then we'd delay the Road. Otherwise, sure, if there's no difference in the amount of Food that the Granary could get, we could save a future Worker turn by building the Road first.

Spoiler Ruby Bay notes... ignore this text and read the next message :

Ruby Bay grows in 5 turns so I guess we chop the gem hill. Question: What is best way to build the Hanging Gardens in Ruby Bay?

As I wrote in a cross-edit, we won't make it to Size 3 before Mathematics, so there's no need to complete the Chop on the second Gems square until after we learn Mathematics, but we should aim to get the Chop on T97, since the Food box will be about half full at Size 2 at that point.

I suppose that the ideal case would be to whip 60 Hammers into the Aqueduct, even though that would mean not working the 2nd Gems Mine for a couple of turns--we really should put a lot of effort into completing The Hanging Gardens before Hatty or possibly another AI completes it. With 32 H on T97, then another 3 H per turn on T98, T99, and T100, with at least one Chop coming in on T97, we'd have 2 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 11 H plus a Granary.

One more Chop gives us 41 H, which is enough to be able to 2-pop-whip the Aqueduct, but we're another 5 turns from being able to 2-pop-whip. So, let's just plan to 1-pop-whip the Aqueduct.

So, assuming that we don't mind delaying when we work the second Gems Mine, we don't even need to Road and Mine it for a long time, as we could aim to 1-pop-whip on T99 when we're about to grow to Size 3.

To make that happen, we'd need 3 Chops to arrive on T97 or T98.

We'd then have something like 2 base Hammers in The Hanging Gardens on T100.

As of T100, we would then want another 5 Forest Chops as soon as possible.

So, I would say that there is no time for Roads, no time for Mining the second Gems square, and after all 3 Workers Mine the first Gems square, we just prepare to pre-Chop before T97 and then Chop till we drop from T97 onward.

We have 7 Chops available to us and I said that we need 8 Chops. So, maybe it would still help to Mine the second Gems square. Or, we might end up whipping The Hanging Gardens. Let's see... with 2 H on T100, and earning 3 H per turn, it would take us another 15 turns to manually earn the Hammers, which is way too long. Even with a few extra Hammers from working the second Gems Mine, we'd earn Hammers too slowly. Thus, it will probably be whipping out the last bit of The Hanging Gardens, not Mining the second Gems square, and just Chopping as much as we can as quickly as we can.

Ruby Bay should "enable" the Forest that is 1 N of York to go into Ruby Bay (click on that Forest in Ruby Bay's City screen to enable it for Ruby Bay's usage and therefore Ruby Bay would get the Chop instead of York).

If we happen to gift Churchill a new City (Vlad?) and manage to raze Nottingham, we'd have a Forest for our 8th Chop, otherwise we could just Whip out the last bit of The Hanging Gardens.


With all 3 Workers completing the Gems Mine on T90, that leaves them doing:
T91 Move to a Forest
T92 Pre-Chop
T93 Pre-Chop and STOP
T94 Move to another Forest
T95 Pre-Chop
T96 Pre-Chop and STOP
T97 Wait for Mathematics to come in and then complete the Chop... but, not all 3 Workers can do so, otherwise we'd get too many overflow Hammers, so we could say that one Worker could be on the second Gems square and could put a turn into Roading it.

Doing so gives us our Granary and 30 H Chopped into the Aqueduct, and another 30 H Chopped into the Aqueduct on T98, but then we'd just have 68 H in the Aqueduct, which would not be enough to make it a 1-pop-whipping action.

So, one of the Workers could move to the Forest that it Pre-Chopped on T98, Chop it on T99, but that Chop would come at a bad time, as we'd Chop on the turn where we earned 3 more H, giving us 68 + 30 from Chop + 3 = 101 H to complete the Aqueduct, but we wanted to 1-pop-whip it. So, neither Worker would move to its Pre-Chopped Forest on T98 and those two Workers could both move to the 7th Forest on T98. They both Chop it on T99, then on T100 when we whip the Aqueduct (I think that the City will have just grown to Size 3), one of those Workers can finish the 7th Chop while the other Worker moves to its Pre-Chopped Forest.

Meanwhile, the Worker who was on the Gems square Roaded on T97, Chopped on T98, complete the Road on T99, then moves to the Pre-Chopped Forest that one of the other two Workers Pre-Chopped, giving us our 6th and 7th Chops coming in on T101, allowing us to whip the rest of The Hanging Gardens on T102.

Except that I said all of that within a "vacuum," without considering that there isn't a Forest adjacent to the second Gems square. So, we'd need a Worker to arrive on the second Gems square as its final Chopping location, having arrived there via a Road built, say, at 1 SE of Ruby Bay.

Also, there's a bit of a problem since the Forests at SE + S of Ruby Bay and SE + E of Ruby Bay won't be in our Cultural Borders until T101, so we can't Chop them until that Turn, so those Forests would be ones that we Pre-Chop early on. Yet, the Forest at SE + S takes 2 turns to get to.

So, we should have two Workers who Chop the fastest end up being adjacent to each other to be able to build a Road at 1 S of Ruby Bay, to improve Worker logistics.

Anyway, let's just write it out to see how it might work...

So, something like:
T90 All 3 Workers Mine the first (1 E of Ruby Bay) Gems Mine
T91 W4 to G For at 1 S of Ruby Bay, W5 to GH Riv For at 1 SE + 1 E of Ruby Bay, W6 to G For at 1 SW of Ruby Bay
T92 W4 moves 1 SE G For (1 SE + 1 S of Ruby bay and 1 N of the Horse), W5 and W6 Pre-Chop
T93 W4 Pre-Chops, W5 and W6 Pre-Chop and STOP
T94 W4 Pre-Chops and STOPs, W5 moves 1 W G Riv For (1 SE of Ruby Bay, 2 N of the Horse), W6 moves 1 E G For (1 S of Ruby Bay)

At this point, we have these 3 Forests Pre-Chopped:
G For at SE + S of Ruby Bay (1 N of the Horse)
GH Riv For at SE + E of Ruby Bay (1 N of the Fur)
G For at 1 SW of Ruby Bay (1 S of the Fish)

T95 W4 moves 2 W G For (1 N of York), W5 Pre-Chops G For at 1 SE of Ruby Bay, W6 Pre-Chops G For at 1 S of Ruby Bay
T96 W4 Pre Chops G For (1 N of York), W5 Pre-Chops G For at 1 SE of Ruby Bay and STOPS, W6 Pre-Chops G For at 1 S of Ruby Bay and STOPS
T97 Wait for Mathematics to come in
T97 W4 Pre-Chops G For at 1 N of York, W5 finishes Chop at 1 SE of Ruby Bay, W6 finishes Chop at 1 S of Ruby Bay
T98 W4 finishes Chop at 1 N of York, W5 moves 1 W to G at 1 S of Ruby Bay and builds a Road, W6 (at 1 S of Ruby Bay) completes the Road

We now have Chopped these Forests:
1 SE of Ruby Bay (2 N of the Horse)
1 S of Ruby Bay
1 SW + 1 S of Ruby Bay (1 N of York)

T99 W4 moves 1 N to G For at 1 SW of Ruby Bay, W5 and W6 move along the Road to the second Gems square
T100 W4 completes the Chop at 1 SW of Ruby Bay, W5 and W6 each put a Chop into the second Gems square...

it's not working out very well.

Okay, the solution probably does involve Roading the second Gems square, then moving away from there, such that we only end up with 1 Road built, but building that Road saves us a Worker turn later.

Anyway, back to the drawing board, but the basic ideas are there.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, another thought is that we don't need the Happiness next turn, nor on the turn after next turn.

So, we could even have a single Worker doing the Mining, or have 2 Workers doing the Mining, whichever makes the most sense.

Also, maybe it doesn't make sense to Pre-Chop one of the Forests that is outside of our Cultural Borders and we can just plan to end up on that Forest later, saving a turn of moving around to get to the SE + S Forest (1 N of the Horse) until later.

Further, let's try to do it all without Roading, since Roading may end up costing us turns.

The Solution
One Worker can:
T90 Mine the eastern Gems
T91 Move to northern Gems
T92-T93 Pre-Chop the northern Gems and STOP
T94 Move into Ruby Bay
T95 Move to the G For at 1 SW of Ruby Bay
T96-T98 Chop the G For at 1 SW of Ruby Bay
*** Chopped 1 SW of Ruby Bay (1 S of the Fish) on T98
T99 Move into Ruby Bay
T100 Move to the northern Gems
T101 Chop the northern Gems
*** Chopped northern Gems on T101

Another worker can:
T90 Mine the eastern Gems
T91 Move 1 SE GH Riv For (1 N of the Fur)
T92-T93 Pre-Chop the SE + E GH Riv For (1 N of the Fur) and STOP
T94 Move 1 W G Riv For
T95-T97 Chop the G Riv For
*** Chopped 1 SE of Ruby Bay (2 N of the Horse) on T97
T98 Move 1 S G Riv For (1 N of the Horse)
T99-T101 Chop the G Riv For that is SE + S of Ruby Bay (1 N of the Horse)
*** Chopped 1 SE + 1 S of Ruby Bay (1 N of the Horse) on T101

The last Worker can:
T90 Mine the eastern Gems
T91 Move 1 SW G For (1 S of Ruby Bay)
T92-T93 Pre-Chop the 1 S G For and STOP
T94 Move 1 SW G For (1 N of York)
T95-T97 Chop the G For
*** Chopped 1 SW + 1 S of Ruby Bay (1 N of York) on T97
T98 Move 1 NE G For (1 S of Ruby Bay)
T99 Complete that Chop
*** Chopped 1 S of Ruby Bay on T99
T100 Move 2 E to the GH Riv For
T101 Complete that Chop
*** Chopped the GH Riv For at 1 SE + 1 E of Ruby Bay on T101

On T102, if no AI has completed The Hanging Gardens, we Whip the last bit of it to complete it.

In this way, we don't rely on stealing a Forest from the Nottingham Culture. If we do end up attacking Churchill before then, we'd use the stolen Worker to try to Chop an 8th Forest on or before T101, finishing The Hanging Gardens one turn sooner.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I did some reading (articles Dhoomstriker posted on first page) on spy missions. It appears that the only thing multiple spies in on tile do is increase the chance of a spy being detected and that they do not influence the chance of acquiring a tech.
Here is an applicable quote:

Only other question that comes to mind is what influences the % of success when performing an active mission? Do the same rules you've outlined apply?

The chance of success for a spy mission is an almost identical formula. In fact, it is an identical formula, although it's for the chance to be detected, not the chance to be successful.

If you recall in my first post, I list "ESPIONAGE_SPY_NO_INTRUDE_INTERCEPT_MOD" and "ESPIONAGE_SPY_INTERCEPT_MOD" as being 10 and 25, respectively? But the actual values in GlobalDefines.xml is -90 and -75, I just handled the fact it does 100 + X (where X is the -90 or -75) by short cutting it.

So the formula is identical, just replace the -90 or -75 with the difficulty modifier (DM) for that particular mission.

The percentage chance of being detected while performing a mission is:
(((EISM * REP) + EIC + EICM + EIRM) * (100 + DM)) / 100

int iTargetPoints = GET_TEAM(eTargetTeam).getEspionagePointsEver();
int iOurPoints = GET_TEAM(getTeam()).getEspionagePointsEver();
iSuccess += (GC.getDefineINT("ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_SPENDING_MAX") * iTargetPoints) / std::max(1, iTargetPoints + iOurPoints);

There does not seem to be a magic number. All espinage points are counted. And the chance to capture is proportional to (thier EP)/(their EP + our EP).

 

[Cactus Pete]

Joe, I hope you can go ahead and play these planned turns . There's a great deal of detail for someone to catch up on.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Thanks for digging up that info!

However, I just did some testing that seems to give a different answer.

Let me play around for a bit. I have edited the answer into the bottom of this message.



Russia
Assuming that we are going to attack St. Petersburg amphibiously on the first turn of war, to avoid Stalin cold-whipping a Unit in that City, then the planning all becomes pretty simple... we just get 8 land Units in position on Galleys at 2 S of Yakutsk on T91. On T92, we declare war and amphibiously assault St. Petersburg, then garrison the City.

Stalin does not have a Library, nor does he have a Monument there. He also doesn't have any Religious Buildings there. So, he won't have 100 Culture in the City in time to stop our amphibious assault, making it easier than capturing London in terms of Cultural Defences, although we are likely to end up taking more losses than 2 Horse Archers.

We can plan to bring 3 Horse Archers (probably reserve 1 for defence), 1 Combat II Axeman for defence, and 4 Chariots.

I don't see a way to bring our second Axeman (Axeman 5) in the initial assault, but we could plan to pick him up and drop him off in the second round of Galley transfers of Units.

If we have our Combat II Chariot 8 move to one of Galleys 3 or 4 this turn, and Chariot 1 (the Medic) move to one of those two Galleys next turn, then we'll be able to heal 0.8 Health next turn, which may or may not bring us up to full health (there could be a fraction involved in rounding the display), but we'd have 2 turns at sea to heal.

So, Chariot 8 moves onto Galley 3 (or 4) this turn, the Galleys keep heading toward Russia (except for Galley 2 by London), and then the rest of our land Units load onto our Galleys 3, 4, and 5 on T90.


Stalin would trade:
Stop Trading with Frederick + 40 Gold <-> Currency
Stop Trading with Frederick <-> Mysticism + 110 Gold
But he won't trade for Horseback Riding, which is odd
Instead, he will trade:
Stop Trading with Frederick <-> Mysticism + Horseback Riding + 80 Gold
30 Gold <-> Horseback Riding

So, that bugger is about to learn Horseback Riding.

Oh well, if we choose to have Stalin and Frederick Close Borders with each other, it will cost us Currency, but we'll get Stalin's Gold at the same time.

I'm not sure what the best answer is... let Stalin keep Open Borders with Frederick so that Stalin might send Units toward Hamburg so that less Units counter-attack St. Petersburg? Probably not, since then we'd have to defend two locations.

Should we take Stalin's Gold now and run with it? I'm not sure about that point, either, but probably I'd just say wait until we're about to declare war on Stalin, to remove the chance of Stalin Reopening Borders with Frederick before then, even if we don't get Stalin's 40 Gold (say, he spends it between now and then) by waiting to trade with him.


The 3 S of Paris City (Macau?) is going to be temporarily stealing Paris' Wheat...
We would need to grow to Size 2 and whip on or before T95, so:
We'd have T90, T91, T92, T93, and T94 to earn Food in that City.
Assuming that we let Paris keep its Wheat on T90, the new City would steal and work the Wheat on T91-T94. So, on T90, we could work the GH For and be able to 1-pop-whip an Axeman or a Spearman on T95, with us optionally putting 1 turn of Hammers into a Chariot during 1 of those turns when we are working the Wheat, to give us the choice between whipping one of the Chariot or the Unit into which we put 5 Hammers out of a Spearman or an Axeman (probably whip the Spearman or the Axeman if it looks like we won't have to gift Lyons and whip the Chariot if it looks like we will have to gift Lyons).


Espionage Mission Chances of Success
EDIT: I seem to recall reading "if the Spy has just moved or if there is another Spy on the same square, that Spy has a lowered chance of success in its Mission." The wording "has just moved" is a bit misleading, at least to me, but what it means is that if a Spy has no Stationary Bonus, it has a lowered chance of success in its Mission.

1 Spy, 0% Stationary Bonus = 72% chance to steal a tech

1 Spy, 10% to 50% Stationary Bonus = 90% chance to steal a tech

1 Spy, 0% Stationary Bonus, enemy Spy on the same square = 53% chance to steal a tech (we really can't afford to accidentally click the "Gift" icon with one of our Spies)... sometimes, the icons move around after selecting a Unit, so when we go to steal a tech, we should take a moment to pause before clicking, so that we end up clicking on the correct icon (I just found myself accidentally clicking on the Gift icon).

1 Spy, 10% to 50% Stationary Bonus, enemy Spy on the same square = 72% chance to steal a tech

2 or more (of our) Spies, 0% Stationary Bonus = 72% chance to steal a tech

2 or more (of our) Spies, 10% to 50% Stationary Bonus = 72% chance to steal a tech

2 or more (of our) Spies, 0% Stationary Bonus, enemy Spy on the same square = 53% chance to steal a tech

2 or more (of our) Spies, 10% to 50% Stationary Bonus, enemy Spy on the same square = 53% chance to steal a tech

So, the rule really is "if your Spy has a 0% Stationary Bonus or there is at least one other Spy on the same square, your Spy gets a reduced chance of success." Another rule is "if there is an enemy Spy a Security Bureau (unlocked by Democracy) on the same square, your Spy gets a reduced chance of success."

Of course, the Perform Counterespionage Mission is a bit different, as it always gives a 100% chance of success, but it's also not a useful Mission for us to perform, since Hatty's Spies will be far away from our Culture and that Mission just makes it harder for her Spies to be effective in our territory.

 

[Jersey Joe]

We can road the second gem hill and recover the lost worker turn on T101, not delaying the finish of the Hanging Gardens.

The Solution
One Worker can:
T90 Mine the eastern Gems
T91 Move to northern Gems
T92-T93 Pre-Chop the northern Gems and STOP
T94 Move into Ruby Bay T94-T95 Road Gems
T95 Move to the G For at 1 SW of Ruby Bay T96 move through Ruby Bay to G For at 1 SW of Ruby Bay
T96-T98 Chop the G For at 1 SW of Ruby Bay T97-99 Chop the G For at 1 SW of Ruby Bay
*** Chopped 1 SW of Ruby Bay (1 S of the Fish) on T98 T99
T99 Move into Ruby Bay T100 Move into Ruby Bay
T100 Move to the northern Gems
T101 Chop the northern Gems T101 Move to northern Gems and Chop
*** Chopped northern Gems on T101

Another worker can:
T90 Mine the eastern Gems
T91 Move 1 SE GH Riv For (1 N of the Fur)
T92-T93 Pre-Chop the SE + E GH Riv For (1 N of the Fur) and STOP
T94 Move 1 W G Riv For
T95-T97 Chop the G Riv For
*** Chopped 1 SE of Ruby Bay (2 N of the Horse) on T97
T98 Move 1 S G Riv For (1 N of the Horse)
T99-T101 Chop the G Riv For that is SE + S of Ruby Bay (1 N of the Horse)
*** Chopped 1 SE + 1 S of Ruby Bay (1 N of the Horse) on T101

The last Worker can:
T90 Mine the eastern Gems
T91 Move 1 SW G For (1 S of Ruby Bay)
T92-T93 Pre-Chop the 1 S G For and STOP
T94 Move 1 SW G For (1 N of York) Reminder this Forest needs to be "enabled"
T95-T97 Chop the G For
*** Chopped 1 SW + 1 S of Ruby Bay (1 N of York) on T97
T98 Move 1 NE G For (1 S of Ruby Bay)
T99 Complete that Chop
*** Chopped 1 S of Ruby Bay on T99
T100 Move 2 E to the GH Riv For
T101 Complete that Chop
*** Chopped the GH Riv For at 1 SE + 1 E of Ruby Bay on T101 Should not this chop complete the Hanging Gardens?

On T102, if no AI has completed The Hanging Gardens, we Whip the last bit of it to complete it.

In this way, we don't rely on stealing a Forest from the Nottingham Culture. If we do end up attacking Churchill before then, we'd use the stolen Worker to try to Chop an 8th Forest on or before T101, finishing The Hanging Gardens one turn sooner.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Joe, I hope you can go ahead and play these planned turns . There's a great deal of detail for someone to catch up on.

Yes I can play.
I know that feeling of having to catch up, I am still going back and reading old posts to see what was planned (I now started including notes about future actions in my PPPs).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The Road sounds like a good optimization.

Will it still work for the timing?

T89 21 H
T90, T91, T92, T93 4 * 1 H
T94, T95, T97 3 * 3 H
T97 2 Chops
21 + 4 + 9 + 60 - 60 = 34 H
T98, T99 2 * 3 H
T99 2 Chops
34 + 6 + 60 = 100 / 100 H needed to complete the Aqueduct, meaning that we couldn't 1-pop-whip it

So, no, it seems as though with or without the Road, the plan has a flaw in it.

Thus, on one of those turns where we make just 1 H (T90 through T93), we should dump 1 H somewhere else (say, into a Lighthouse), so that yes, we can complete the Road as you have suggested and also be able to 1-pop-whip the Aqueduct on T100.


With 29 H from 1-pop-whipping the Aqueduct and 3 more Chops, we'd still need to whip The Hanging Gardens, since we can't make up another 30 Hammers from just working squares with our citizens on T100 and T101. In fact, we might not be able to whip The Hanging Gardens right away, either, since we'd probably only get 20 base Hammers from whipping, and thus we'd need to earn another 10 base Hammers before we could whip.


One option is to simply delay the Granary there, but then our best bet would be to NOT build the Road, so that we could put 3 Chops into the Aqueduct, 1-pop-whip it, and then put the other 4 Chops into The Hanging Gardens.


With us capturing St. Petersburg on T92, then Vlad not being captured for a few more turns, I think that it will be a bit of a stretch to be able to get Churchill's Worker in time to help with Chopping out The Hanging Gardens. So, the best approach seems to be that we will just have to delay Ruby Bay's Granary and also skip building the Road on the northern Gems square.

Of course, we can now afford to get 3 Chops on T97, if you want to try to figure out a different set of Worker actions that would make such approach work, just to try to save probably what will at best end up being a savings of 1 Worker turn, but I don't see a way to make that happen. So, we simply delay the Granary, get The Hanging Gardens completed at the end of T101 with the help of Chops, we don't squeeze in a Road, and we can use the extra population point from completing The Hanging Gardens to 1-pop-whip our Granary.

 

[Jersey Joe]

The Road sounds like a good optimization.

Will it still work for the timing?

T89 21 H
T90, T91, T92, T93 4 * 1 H
T94, T95, T97 3 * 3 H
T97 2 Chops
21 + 4 + 9 + 60 - 60 = 34 H
T98, T99 2 * 3 H
T99 2 Chops
34 + 6 + 60 = 100 / 100 H needed to complete the Aqueduct, meaning that we couldn't 1-pop-whip it

So, no, it seems as though with or without the Road, the plan has a flaw in it.

Use original timing, Do Not build road.
Turn 97 switch from Granary to Aqueduct (3+60 = 63)
T98 1 Chop (63+30+3 = 93)
T99 1-pop whip + 1 Chop (93+30+30+1 = 152 -100 = 52
T100 Hanging Gardens (2*52+2*1 = 106)
T101 3 chops (106 + 2*90 + 2*3 = 292)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So, how about on T99 - T101 we work the Gems Mine for an extra 8 final Hammers? Ignoring the Fish isn't perfect, but it's one way to make the really-tight-timing work, and at least it's only a 5-Food Fish that we're ignoring.

Getting the Wonder sooner rather than later allows us to make use of the extra population points that much sooner and every turn saved on completing it gives us a greater chance of not being beaten to building it by an AI.

After the Wonder is completed, we'll be able to work both the Fish and the Gems due to the free population point.


Is there anything else that you need help on? I can't think of any item that we haven't discussed, but please let me know if you're stuck somewhere.

 

[Jersey Joe]

So, how about on T99 - T101 we work the Gems Mine for an extra 8 final Hammers? Ignoring the Fish isn't perfect, but it's one way to make the really-tight-timing work, and at least it's only a 5-Food Fish that we're ignoring.

Getting the Wonder sooner rather than later allows us to make use of the extra population points that much sooner and every turn saved on completing it gives us a greater chance of not being beaten to building it by an AI.

After the Wonder is completed, we'll be able to work both the Fish and the Gems due to the free population point.


Is there anything else that you need help on? I can't think of any item that we haven't discussed, but please let me know if you're stuck somewhere.

This is certainly close to completing it on T101, I think the Gem mine is provides 2 hammers so we might have to work G For and mine, depending on population maybe starting at turn 97.

I am finalizing the PPP for turns 89-90.

Here are a suggestion and a question I have on the PPP.
I would like to keep the Espionage Rate at 100% for turn 89 and drop to 0% turn 90 (100% tax for gold) in the unlikely event we have 9 successful steals and need a little more than 1,000 EPs.

Would whipping a Chariot in Lyons get limited by Buffy to a max of 30 over flow?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

This is certainly close to completing it on T101, I think the Gem mine is provides 2 hammers

Yes, but your calculations show that we just need 2 more base Hammers for 2 turns. Working the Gems Mine instead of the Fish for 2 turns gives us those 2 base Hammers, in addition to the 1 base Hammer from the City Centre, but then we have to keep working the Gems Mine on the 3rd turn (T101) when your calculations show us working both the Fish and the Gems Mine in the Food-focused approach. So, that's 3 turns of not working the Fish, but I think that the cost is an acceptable one to pay.

so we might have to work G For and mine, depending on population maybe starting at turn 97.

Whether we work the Mine plus a 2-Hammer square instead of the Fish earlier or on whether we work the Mine instead of the Fish later on probably won't make a difference in terms of the total Hammers and Food earned, but we may make less Commerce by doing so.

I would like to keep the Espionage Rate at 100% for turn 89 and drop to 0% turn 90 (100% tax for gold) in the unlikely event we have 9 successful steals and need a little more than 1,000 EPs.

Don't forget that we get 4 EPs for free each turn and will get a lot more for free starting on T98. I think that we've already over-collected EPs.

Assuming that all 6 50-Stationary-Bonus Spies can steal a tech, that would cost us:
Mathematics = 72 EPs
Code of Laws = 101 EPs
Monarchy = 87 EPs (which arguably could instead be traded-for later for Civil Service, since it's a non-Monopoly tech)
Construction = 101 EPs
Calendar = 101 EPs
Philosophy = 233 EPs (the most expensive tech that Hatty knows)
Total = 695 EPs

If we had the pre-requisite techs, we should have already started researching our next techs, but we lack the techs needed to go for either Civil Service or Paper. That means that it was good that you kept us on track for our tech-stealing targeted turn.

The cost to steal techs with the additional Spies might make the costs too high for us to bother with, but let's say that we took Aesthetics and Literature with our 40 percent Stationary Bonus Spies. Doing so would still only cost us less than 200 EPs, so we have more than enough even EPs already with the best of tech-stealing luck.

Would whipping a Chariot in Lyons get limited by Buffy to a max of 30 over flow?

Yes. Right now, we have 13 / 30 H and are making another 32 H, so we're making 45 / 30 H. If we whipped, we'd earn another 15 overflow Hammers and 15 Gold.

Gold can be okay to get, but at this point where we're actually stuck going to a 100% Gold rate while we wait to be able to steal techs, I don't think that we need to go out of our way to get more Gold in place of Hammers.

But, it would be very, very nice to save Lyons' population points to 2-pop-whip enough Galleys for a southern navy to drop off troops by Athens, amphibiously assault Oporto (assuming that Joao still hasn't upgraded his Warriors to Axemen) to deny Joao Iron at the start of the war, and to then later have the option of going after Hatty when the time is convenient for us, rather than us seeing a convenient window to attack but not being able to attack for another 15+ turns after seeing that window while we wait for our southern navy to get assembled.

So, I'm not really seeing the value of whipping the Chariot in Lyons. If we really want to, we could probably soon get enough Hammers in Lyons to 1-pop-whip another Galley, what with 15 Hammers overflowing and only 20 Hammers needed to be able to 1-pop-whip a Galley. But, with a bit of patience, we'll be at Size 4 pretty quickly and then we can more efficiently 2-pop-whip the next Galley.


After we resettle Vlad, we can build a Fort where Vlad is located now, giving our northern navy even more reach to the east (i.e. there shouldn't be a need to send our northern navy to the south). I'm assuming that the Orient Express didn't traditionally go along the northern coast of Russia, but we've had the most warring success with naval warfare, and since we know that our target Cities to which to build a Railroad are on the same continent to us, and since Russia has settled a lot of land, it follows logically that one option for building the Railroad is all of the way around the coast by continuing to capture Cities that Russia builds for us, then only cutting inland with our Railroad wherever those Cities are located.

We have another page in the thread...

 

[Jersey Joe]

Don't forget that we get 4 EPs for free each turn and will get a lot more for free starting on T98. I think that we've already over-collected EPs.

Assuming that all 6 50-Stationary-Bonus Spies can steal a tech, that would cost us:
Mathematics = 72 EPs
Code of Laws = 101 EPs
Monarchy = 87 EPs (which arguably could instead be traded-for later for Civil Service, since it's a non-Monopoly tech)
Construction = 101 EPs
Calendar = 101 EPs
Philosophy = 233 EPs (the most expensive tech that Hatty knows)
Total = 695 EPs

If we had the pre-requisite techs, we should have already started researching our next techs, but we lack the techs needed to go for either Civil Service or Paper. That means that it was good that you kept us on track for our tech-stealing targeted turn.

The cost to steal techs with the additional Spies might make the costs too high for us to bother with, but let's say that we took Aesthetics and Literature with our 40 percent Stationary Bonus Spies. Doing so would still only cost us less than 200 EPs, so we have more than enough even EPs already with the best of tech-stealing luck.

I think we will only have 1 spy (the last 00) with less than a 40% chance to steal. We should steal Aesthetics and Literature if we have the chance. After that there is still Polytheism and Monotheism add those in and we are close to needing 1,000 eps. There is less than a 5% chance we could steal all those at once but why not be prepared? Also, Hatty could learn another tech by T97. For know I will agree we can go to a 100% tax rate, but I reserve the right to advocate for a future increase in the EP rate.

After Civil Service I think we need to consider learning Metal Casting (unless Churchill is finally about to learn it) since it is on the track to railroads.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I added a reminder to ask Frederick to attack Thebes.

Items in Green indicate changes from previous PPP.

Suggested PPP

Diplo Policy
Christianity? No
Stop trading with another AI? No
Give a Resource? Yes (There isn't an enforced 10 turns of Peace for saying yes)
Peace deal or Open Borders? No--we should be the ones to decide when these deals happen
Give Horseback Riding? No
Give a Tech other than Horseback Riding? No to Frederick (since we'll be attacking him
soon), yes to anyone else
Join a war? No
Trade a tech for a tech and/or Gold? No--let's discuss tech trades and put them in a PPP

Reasons for stopping:
We meet a new AI;
One of our Cities is threatened;
Something in the plan sounds wrong;

Turn 89, 650 BC (Completing the turn)
Ask Frederick to attack Thebes.
Research Rate: 0%
Espionage Rate 0% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.

Paris
build: Spy
Works: Deer, Wheat, Copper

XO Cognac
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Cow, switch Horse to Fur

Orleans
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Cow, Iron Mine

Lyons
build: Chariot
Works: Fish, Fur

London
build: 2-pop whip Spy
Works: Fish, Horse,

York
build: Axeman
Works: Fish

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Hamburg (in revolt) build Axeman:

Cologne (in revolt) build Axeman: (when out of revolt look at sheep + iron for 1 pop whip)

Ruby Bay
build: Granary
Works: Fish

Horse Archer 5 (in Cologne) moves 2 N and boards Galley (3 or 4)
Chariot 8 (in Cologne) moves 2 N and boards Galley (3 or 4)
Galleys 3 & 4 sail 2 E (1 west of Hamburg)
Galley 5 sails into Hamburg and Stops
Warrior 1 and Axe 5 move 1 NE and enter Cologne

Chariot 7 moves 2 NE Wheat (1 NE of Munich); then 2 SE onto Russian Wheat


Axe 3 remains active on Fur

Turn 90, 625 BC
Research Rate: 0%
Espionage Rate 0% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.
Ask Frederick to attack Thebes.

Paris
build: Chariot
Works: Deer, Wheat, Copper, Fur

XO Cognac
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Cow, switch Fur to Horse, Stone

Orleans
build: Horse Archer
Works: Fish, Cow, Iron Mine

Lyons
build: Galley
Works: Fish, Fur, Wine

London
build: Monastery
Works: Fish, Horse,

York
build: Axeman
Works: Fish

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Ruby Bay
build: Granary
Works: Fish

Macau
build: Spear
Works: G For

Worker 1 moves 1SE Wheat and Roads
Worker 2 Finishes road on Sheep
Worker 3 continues to camp Deer (1 N of Argent)
Worker 7 moves ???
at Ruby Bay
Worker 4 Moves 1E to GH Gems and Mines
Worker 5 Mines GH Gems
Worker 6 Mines GH Gems

Settler 7 moves 1 S (3S of Paris) and Founds Macau and opens a casino
Medic moves 1W and boards Galley (3 or 4)
Horse Archer 4 moves 1W and boards Galley (3 or 4)
Galleys 3 & 4 sail 1 E through Hamburg 1 NE
Horse Archer 7 boards Galley 5 (in Hamburg)
Axe 4 boards Galley 5 (in Hamburg)
Galley 5 sails 1NE joins the flotilla and stops
Galley 1 trims sails and stays in place

Galley 2 sails to 1 SE of London
Spy from London moves 1 SE boarding Galley 2

Chariot from Lyons moves 1SW, 1SE boarding Galley 6
Galley 6 sails in coastal waters toward Egypt

Spies from all over converge on the big card game and Grand Opening of Macau.

Saving to discuss

Chariot 7 movement will depend on what was revealed on T89, goal is to be in neutral territory northeast of Munich by end of Turn 91 (maybe rely on teleportation)

Should Axe 5 leave Cologne and head for Hamburg?


Axe 3 remains active on Fur